30 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

... and how is that working out for you?
Iit's time to try it our way. Let's be frank for a moment: You guys, and we, all know that these features did jack squat to help new player retention, and that morale here is at an all time low... so why not swallow pride and remove Ghost Heat, remove 3PV, edit universally loathed weapons in the XML, maybe 10 minutes work?

Look, I know you're attached to systems like "Heat Scaling." I know you think they were great ideas and the fact that time and time again we universally vote against them is just a joke, but I think it's time you guys change your tune. They were poorly thought out, killed new users and angered old ones, across the board; the few people who still like it are trying to justify it in terms you put out, that don't play out in practice.

I realize you can't undo years of damage because you didn't get to even start Community Warfare yet, and that it would take time to do so. But you can't just offer platitudes. If you want the communtiy go give PGI another chance, it's time to actually listen to us and stop pretending your core audience is somehow bad for newbies, because frankly, we've had way more sense about new user retention than has been displayed so far (Tutorials, tutorials, tutorials!).

If PGI really wants to "start over" with the community and have a chance of holding this license to the 2018 mark or beyond, it's time to stop acting like only the people praising things are the only ones that exist, and be willing to man up and apologize for bad calls.. and fix them.

Well that and absolute abandonment, like how you've not touched game balance in five patches despite several massive problems and the scant few minutes it'd take to do something about.

Anyway, I hope you consider it. I'd love to sing some praises here, like I did when you guys started "Aggressive Weapon Balance." Part of why I am no longer singing those praises is that was dropped like a rock on launch.

It's not too late. Everyting I've suggested is an easy fix. Pride nor ego is worth the game, the franchise, and with it your source of income. Everyone loses if you stay this course.

So what do you say? Give us a sign you really want change?

[Reitrix]

Sorry, i just don't see how Ghost Heat was bad for the game. It fixed a lot of the nonsense with PPCs and AC2s.

As far as Ghost Heat killing new users, Managed to get my friends GF to play a few matches. in 2 games she worked out that if she fired too many of the same gun at the same time, the heat went up higher, so she began to pace her shots. Given that this was not only her first MechWarrior game, but almost her first FPS game, leads me to think the problem is the Users not the mechanic. We need tutorials for a lot of mechanics anyways.

Retaining new players to a niche franchise is always going to be difficult. Many of the 'New Users' you cite are most likely FPS fans looking for something different and finding the game too different to their tastes.

[Livaria]

Morale for many players is low (judging from Clan-tech criticism topics). but I think we should set aside a few things first...

Ghost heat is an unnatural mechanic to any weapon. But it's still an important tool at the moment for balancing the game. I'd much rather that a lot of players be content with Ghost heat *UNTIL* better features are thought up of.

(Features that I politely suggest that be put in the feature topic because I don't see a feature suggestion posted here.)

There IS no reason to remove 3rd person view. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but 3rd person view can simply be toggled off through either options of the F4 key.

There's a lot of weapons that are loathed at the moment. Half of the complaints that people make seem, mostly unjustified. Sure weapons aren't necessarily perfectly balanced (Perhaps weapons like the SRM 2 + Artemis which I'm trying to address in my own topic). But I've been able to find a good use for just about any weapon. Most weapons that I see are far from entirely useless in contrast to how often people portray them as.


I believe that they are doing everything they can to make the game as best as it can be. They are introducing new content. And I believe their priority now is is simply not in favor of it's players... which is probably why it's such a low morale. Right now I see content updates that are quite interesting. Sure, community warfare is missing but this whole *clan invasion* thing might just be a follow up of the community warfare. What their goal could be right now is just to get every faction, map, and 'mechs to be fully established before they move onto something big like community warfare.

Because you know, what's community warfare without introducing all aspects of every faction? *
This includes... *THE CLANS!*


I think it's mostly just a matter of patience before they start bringing out the features everyone wants. I wish people would stop panicking over such things and simply wait and see.

Edited by Livaria, 22 December 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Reitrix]

Livaria, on 20 December 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

I believe that they are doing everything they can to make the game as best as it can be. They are introducing new content. And I believe their priority now is is simply not in favor of it's players... which is probably why it's such a low morale. Right now I see content updates that are quite interesting. Sure, community warfare is missing but this whole *clan invasion* thing might just be a follow up of the community warfare. What their goal could be right now is just to get every faction, map, and 'mechs to be fully established before they move onto something big like community warfare.

Because you know, what's community warfare without introducing all aspects of every faction? *
This includes... *THE CLANS!*


I think it's mostly just a matter of patience before they start bringing out the features everyone wants. I wish people would stop panicking over such things and simply wait and see.

In regards to maps, I have a feeling the maps we're getting now are essentially tilesets, so that in future they can make planetscale maps of a specific environment.

I say this because of a comment Russ made a very long time ago about needing to build the Netcode from scratch due to using a fairly new/beta version of CryEngine3.

Since they needed to build the Netcode from scratch into an Engine that originally didn't have it, maybe the reason the maps are taking so long to come out is of a similar reason. Creating the various Environments is giving them the assets to build maps in future, faster and of a larger scale. The Maps have been increasing in scale for a while now, part of that would be due to the extra Lance of 'Mechs present, but maybe they're thinking of the future also

[FupDup]

Reitrix, on 20 December 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Sorry, i just don't see how Ghost Heat was bad for the game. It fixed a lot of the nonsense with PPCs and AC2s.

AC/2s were never "nonsense" in the first place. They have an extremely low alpha-damage for their rather large tonnage sacrifice, require continuous exposure to deal their DPS, and run nearly as hot as PPCs to top it off. AC/2s were only an issue for those who stood out in the open too long, just like the "dreaded" LRMs...

The PPC nonsense was "fixed" by increasing their heat to TT levels (10 for regular, 15 for ER), reducing the projectile speed down by 500 m/s, and giving regular PPCs zero damage within 90 meters. And even after all of that, PPCs are still easily in the top-3 best weapons in the game.

Edited by FupDup, 20 December 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Motroid]

Victor Morson, on 20 December 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

... and how is that working out for you?
Iit's time to try it our way. Let's be frank for a moment: You guys, and we, all know that these features did jack squat to help new player retention, and that morale here is at an all time low... so why not swallow pride and remove Ghost Heat, remove 3PV, edit universally loathed weapons in the XML, maybe 10 minutes work?

Look, I know you're attached to systems like "Heat Scaling." I know you think they were great ideas and the fact that time and time again we universally vote against them is just a joke, but I think it's time you guys change your tune. They were poorly thought out, killed new users and angered old ones, across the board; the few people who still like it are trying to justify it in terms you put out, that don't play out in practice.

I realize you can't undo years of damage because you didn't get to even start Community Warfare yet, and that it would take time to do so. But you can't just offer platitudes. If you want the communtiy go give PGI another chance, it's time to actually listen to us and stop pretending your core audience is somehow bad for newbies, because frankly, we've had way more sense about new user retention than has been displayed so far (Tutorials, tutorials, tutorials!).

If PGI really wants to "start over" with the community and have a chance of holding this license to the 2018 mark or beyond, it's time to stop acting like only the people praising things are the only ones that exist, and be willing to man up and apologize for bad calls.. and fix them.

Well that and absolute abandonment, like how you've not touched game balance in five patches despite several massive problems and the scant few minutes it'd take to do something about.

Anyway, I hope you consider it. I'd love to sing some praises here, like I did when you guys started "Aggressive Weapon Balance." Part of why I am no longer singing those praises is that was dropped like a rock on launch.

It's not too late. Everyting I've suggested is an easy fix. Pride nor ego is worth the game, the franchise, and with it your source of income. Everyone loses if you stay this course.

So what do you say? Give us a sign you really want change?

How about the old days?
Game gets released - you thankfully play it.
Game is bad - you stop playing. Move on and avoid other games of that devteam.
If you can't quit they seem to do something right, huh?
Many people think they have some sorta right on the game. Or PGI owes them something.

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this

I like the balance we currently have. Work on CW and such instead.

[Firewuff]

So victor you've had the entitled founder whinge..... How's that working out for you?

I am so tired of people deciding they know how to run a large software company better than a team of professionals because 'they know how it should be'

Look we know your a founder and know how every single player in the game thinks because they must agree with you. Of course I couldn't pissibly think that ghost heat was a great idea and works well as a mechanic and doesn't need to change because as a founder you know how 'universally' how it should be.

I realize that as a founder you must 'be part of the core audience' and must be made happy at the expense at the huge number to players who are discovering this for the first time... All those players who never played mechwarrior because they were too young when the last game was released.

How's that working out for you... Despite pgi has stated 3pv has increased accessibility for new players and hasn't caused a cheatpocolypse as screamed about by 'everyone' and has significantly increased the player base... Dispute the fact its not just and XML change to modify a weapon because the was ui 1.0 was coded and that there are really only 1 or 2 weps that are not used (narc) you of course know better. Because of course you have an intimate knowledge of how the code works as a player and would accept any change without whinging that it wasn't extensively tested and checked because that would take more than 10mins work.

How's that working out for you?

Edited by Firewuff, 21 December 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Ghoullees]

Opinion is at an all time low, but its got nothing to do with heat, or 3PV.

PGI is just taking the **** now, on their 3rd round of money grubbing fund raising, which just sticks more salt in the backers wounds.

Instead of trying to stick more mechs in the same little box, how about...MAKING SOME CONTENT!

Faction warfare, some story content to breath some life into the universe, and a reason to actually JOIN a group and fight as a lance.

There is no soul in this game. There is no impression whatsover that PGI is developing with any kind of speed, plan or enthusiasm itself.

I regret backing this game. And because of PGI specifically, I will be very VERY careful opening my wallet to future game developers.

See how there is nothing above I can pull out of this as a positive?

THAT's why people are not being retained. THAT is why people are leaving. THAT is why throughout the forums, people are saying DONT BUY CLAN Packages.

[carl kerensky]

Motroid, on 20 December 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

How about the old days?
Game gets released - you thankfully play it.
Game is bad - you stop playing. Move on and avoid other games of that devteam.
If you can't quit they seem to do something right, huh?
Many people think they have some sorta right on the game. Or PGI owes them something.

What a load a {Scrap} your spewing there mister. Victor has some great points and the fact of the matter PGI has ignored the core, passionate player base. For what? To appease the kiddie crowd who thrive on instant gratification. Give them flash bang enough and they will forget all those flaws that plague this game. Those people will always settle for less and play it with a smile. PGI compromised there initial pillars period. Early closed beta is superior both graphically , immersively and gameplay as well. It boggles the mind why they tore it all apart with what we have now. One compromise after another.

[Hexenhammer]

Reitrix, on 20 December 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Retaining new players to a niche franchise is always going to be difficult. Many of the 'New Users' you cite are most likely FPS fans looking for something different and finding the game too different to their tastes.

Retaining new players in MWO will be a challenge because of how unforgiving this game is. New players are expected to...
Know where their legs are facing.
Know where their torso is facing.
Remember where weapons are placed on their mech.
Know weapon ranges.
watch heat scale,
watch ammo.
ID targets
know where the enemy is
know where their team is.
dodge LRMs.
Shoot their team in the back.
Block there team from moving.


And the list goes on!


A way to improve new player experince is to create two ELO brackets. PUG and Premade. That way new and old puggers alike find themselves getting ROLFA stomped by 12 mans.

[LordJops]

I am a long time MechWarrior/Earthsiege/Battletech Battledrome video games fan. I grew up with these games and stumbled upon MWO a couple of months ago. I think I'm somewhere around 700 rounds in and would still consider myself a new player. It took me a little while to get into the swing of things, learn about endosteel, proper heat sink balance, how to maximize c-bills, figure out different playing styles, targeting etc etc. I have no concept of what pre-ghost heat MWO was like, but as far as the current "broken" game mechanics go, there doesn't seem to be anything so fundamentally broken that it made me, a new player, want to go screaming into the hills.

I think the game is a lot of fun and I just don't understand the constant bitching, especially about ghost heat. The overheating mechanic in Mechwarrior has always added another dimension to what would otherwise be a "stack the biggest guns and maximize dps" line of FPS thinking. 6x Chainfire PPC? **** that.

Granted, I'm also sticking around because I like this franchise. Maybe the average FPS player trying out MWO without any previous exposure to franchise might not give it a second try. Content will come, I know I can wait for added features because the current MWO is still a lot of fun to play and the current dynamic not at all unpleasant to dive into.

[Sandpit]

Firewuff, on 21 December 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

So victor you've had the entitled founder whinge..... How's that working out for you?

If you had left "founder whine" out of it I would have liked your post. How about people stop trying to make it into a "founder's" thing all the time? I'm so sick of hearing about how evil founders and premades are. Just because someone has an opinion, rant, rage, whine, etc. doesn't mean it's associated with everyone that may fall into a specific section of players

[MountainCopper]

Reitrix, on 20 December 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Sorry, i just don't see how Ghost Heat was bad for the game. It fixed a lot of the nonsense with PPCs and AC2s.

As far as Ghost Heat killing new users, Managed to get my friends GF to play a few matches. in 2 games she worked out that if she fired too many of the same gun at the same time, the heat went up higher, so she began to pace her shots. Given that this was not only her first MechWarrior game, but almost her first FPS game, leads me to think the problem is the Users not the mechanic. We need tutorials for a lot of mechanics anyways.

Retaining new players to a niche franchise is always going to be difficult. Many of the 'New Users' you cite are most likely FPS fans looking for something different and finding the game too different to their tastes.

Ghost heat helped with nothing but with multiple PPC/ERPPCs (more than two).

-It penalizes every beam energy weapon as you have always group your weapons in an awkward or stupid way to not get a heat penalty.
-Double AC20 is still a major annoyance, the Gauss rifle was nerved in other ways...
-Still have the major problem of high-alpha single-shot builds.
-Multiple AC2 builds have their large heat buildup they also had before the ghost heat... Plus it was a bug at first and not a designed feature afaik.

Ghost heat is an annoyance and should be removed and/or replaced with something different...

Edited by GoldenFleece, 22 December 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[xhrit]

Hexenhammer, on 21 December 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Retaining new players in MWO will be a challenge because of how unforgiving this game is.

Oldschool games were hardcore. The only way that a modern remake of an oldschool game would ever appeal to new casual players (aka, the gaming majority) is to dumb it down to a point it no longer appeals to the oldschool userbase.

That includes adding **** easy pve, so all the {Scrap} players who cant handle a fair fight can feel like they are an uber cool dood in their super powered stompy robot, as they kill hundreds of unarmored infantry.

Edited by xhrit, 22 December 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Samziel]

Victor Morson, on 20 December 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

... and how is that working out for you?
Iit's time to try it our way. Let's be frank for a moment: You guys, and we, all know that these features did jack squat to help new player retention, and that morale here is at an all time low... so why not swallow pride and remove Ghost Heat, remove 3PV, edit universally loathed weapons in the XML, maybe 10 minutes work?

Hmm, seriously? You think it is that easy to modify the whole servers to this? It takes hours to put the patch into the game and you say 10 minutes is enough for all of these 3?

Learn to think mister. Ghost heat is different for every weapon, it is not a simple thing. I'd bet only modifying it and making patch about it only would take countless hours. Then removing 3PV and trying to edit hated weapons, and you say it takes only 10 minutes?

Edited by Samziel, 22 December 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[anonymous161]

Mechassault was a great game even though it was arcade game style, was still a pretty game with good content.

Now imagine a mechwarrior looking as pretty as this with of course current gen specs and take out the arcade and put the sim into it this owuld hae been amazing plus having an actual story to play.

I still enjoy playing this on rare occasion.

[Sandpit]

Darth Bane001, on 22 December 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Mechassault was a great game

.................

Somewhere, a baby seal just got clubbed
If you care about baby seals please never say this again.....

[Bagheera]

"You Guys Have Tried It You Are Way."

I weep for the written word.

[Bront]

1) Ghost Heat helped a few things, but they might be fixed now with the PPC heat fix. That said, Ghost Heat is keeping the AC40 builds in check, and with Clantech coming making it easier to mount dual UAC20s potentially, there's some merit to it (as much as it pains me to say). I'd much prefer a better heat system in general, as energy weapons are just not great right now and around 80% of the suckage is heat related.

2) 3PV isn't going away, and it's really not a huge problem. You can't use it in 12 mans, and you rarely see it being elsewhere outside of a few folks who prefer it (it's useful for a few mechs builds, but I have actually heard of a player who preferred it) and has plenty of drawbacks.

3) Universally loathed weapons? What are they? The AC20 folks complain is too powerful? The AC10 folks complain is too week? The LB10X folks complain about all over the spectrum? Sure, it seems easy to edit that info, but it may not be that simple for some weapons (might need to change the sounds for energy weapons i their beam duration changes) and what may seem like an easy fix on your end might end up being disastrous (See the UAC5 apocalypse pre-launch).

That said, I would like to see them toying with a few of the weapons a little bit more, but minor steps, not some huge game sweeping change.