219 replies to this topic

[Perihelion Jack]

Congratulations to all of the finalists, and a huge thank you to the entire Blue Vengeance team; the Isengrim know firsthand how challenging organizing and running an event such as this, and it was brilliantly done. Definitely an accomplishment to be proud of.

Feedback:
- The tonnage and pinpoint restrictions were perfectly designed to encourage a variety of lance compositions and loadouts, which was a refreshing departure from the cookie-cutter metagame.

- The group phase was a good idea; however, I felt as if players should be restricted to which group they were assigned to once they participated in a match for one team. This would prevent players from one group playing in multiple team entries within the same event.

- Starting positions seemed wonky given the lack of preset lances and unknown maps. This will improve (hopefully) as they work on the interface, and there is nothing you could have done procedurally to make that better. You did well in spite of that.


Again, thank you to the BV for hosting, and we hope to see many of teams that participated in future events. Long live the FRR!

[Klappspaten]

Reno Blade, on 16 February 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

As much as I support the "push" for private lobbies... It is schedulled for April with the launch module. Nothigh we can do to speed it up

Its not only private lobbies that are missing.

An game based replay system, a proper spectator mode for streaming and stuff like that would be important too.
Just imagine how great we could have made the streams with an outside perspective from a free moving camera.
On the other hand there needs to be an subforum for announcements of player created content as leagues and tournaments.

StalaggtIKE, on 16 February 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

• Times - The times worked great for me in the US, but I can't imagine how rough it was on any EU teams, especially those that ran the tournament. Perhaps we should look into a more favorable time.
  
• Drop times - I think punctuality should be enforced out of respect for our EU teams. I feel disqualification would be a bit too harsh, however some penalty should be handed down for showing up late.
  
• Drop location - I understand that we were pressed for time, therefore the crossing of teams were used as a way to remove the need for scouting. However if this is going to be done, ensure it is done equally for both sides. For example in my match we didn't have time to get into position as well as see our opponents, however their Jenner had full access to everything we had.
  
  
  Hopefully with the inclusion of private matches time will be less demanding and we can remove the pre-scouting "handshake".
  
• Best of 3 - In a game like MWO, that has so many RNG:
  
  • random maps drop
    
  • random ammo explosions
    
  • random arty/air strike
    
    
    ... single elimination finals are just too sudden. Again I realize we were pressed for time. Perhaps have quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals on different days.

Some thoughts about the mentioned points and some more:

Times: We where compromising on the times the whole time, just because of the timedifference. I could imagine to join forces with a NA based partner to realise at least seperate qualification rounds for seperate continents.

Punctuality: That has been an issue and we will adress that in the ruleset for the next event. But I dont have any idea on how to do so. Disqualification for being late seems a bit harsh.

Drop locations: I am particulary unhappy with how that went. The idea was that you would not need to cross each others position. But it proved very hard to get that straight all the time with posting start times and die tight timescedule.
Right now I´m thinking about giving a space of 9, 12, or 16 squares defined as engagement area. Then teams could enter the area from wherever they want to.

Elimination: Everyone had multiple games in the qualification rounds. Those where meant as the main body of the tournament. I wanted to make the finals single elimination for a simple reason. If your team has made into the finals its on. And the feeling of "if I **** this up I´m out" ads the pressure that makes a competition a competition. And if you watch the streams you will see that it actually changed the way the matches where played, which I really liked.

Strikes: In the future events I will most certainly limit the number of strikes a team can carry. I want them in the game since they are a good way to get a game that is stuck running again, but it have been a little too much on some occassions.

The point system: This is one of the more important issues and we already had a lively discussion about that while the tournament was still running. I gave it some thoughts and in the future it will be probably something like that. Each team gets 1 point for each destroyed Mech, aditionally the winning team gets 1 point if it failed to destroy all enemy mech and 2 points if it did. Please keep in mind that the point values are not written in stone yet, that will need some calculating first.

Edited by Klappspaten, 16 February 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

• Weight limits: I ended up really enjoying this aspect of the tournament. It was exciting to see what builds teams brought, what worked and what didn't work. It would be unfortunate if a 'meta' did arise for this. I am not sure if more limitations is the right way to address the problem though. I do think it may be too early to declare builds meta or a problem though.

• Qualification Group and Single Elimination: I think this was probably the best way to go about things. I know some people here want you guys to have not use any Single Elimination, but that would have taken way too long to conclude the tournament. The Qualification rounds were good though because they guaranteed every participating team at least 5 games in the tournament. In the Yule Tournament we had those two brackets, which meant that teams were only guaranteed 2 games. Things happened a lot faster, and mistakes were a lot less forgivable in that tournament. In the future maybe we can have some sort of 4man ladder season, with teams ranked and no one being eliminated, but with tournament play, especially when you consider the time restraints, a single elimination round is a must.

• Play Times: As an American, with a group of players who were Mostly Americans (Hans Davion lives in Germany) I think we could have handled playing two hours earlier. That may have made things significantly easier on the other European teams. If it does, then keep it in mind.

Conclusion: I think that was a great tournament. Many people here are giving you their advice, and much of it is good. But for most of them this was their first tournament in this mold. Some things just aren't practical with the lackluster tools PGI has provided us for this kind of event. I am sure if, in the future, that changes so will the constraints of these sorts of tournaments.

[Klappspaten]

If we should really see a emerging tournament meta we could easily alternate the limitations. Not neccessary more, but different rules.

[Damon Howe]

Hey Klapp! First off, thanks for the tourny. Our players had a lot of fun playing! Sorry we didn't stick around for the closing, a few of us including myself were pretty hungry by the end of it and wanted a good meal!

Anyways, I really don't have much to add. IKE pretty much covered all my thoughts in a nutshell. For what you had to deal with having no private lobbies or selective matching system, you did what you could.

Thanks again and cheers!

[Jarl Dane]

Press Conference & Post-Game Analysis:

At the end of big sporting events there is usually some sort of post-game press conference - something to sort of ease the audience and players out of the high of the game and into the reality of its aftermath. The tournament was very exciting and I loved our announcers, but I felt like our victory was a little abrupt. We spend weeks gearing up for the tournament, then we spend weeks participating in the tournament and then ‘wham’ it’s suddenly over.

I am writing this to help me and my guys process it, and give a bit more to anyone else looking for a little more resolution. I consider this in the vein of a post-game press conference (despite there being no press or conferences) and post-game analysis’s.

So there is your warning of what this is.
If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. =)



The Isengrim: Jarlsguard

Who we are:
The Jarlsguard Freelance first came together to compete in the Yule Tournament. As the Yule Tournament required teams to bring one ‘mech from each weight class the Jarlsguard was made up of members who did well in the Isengrim’s 1v1 tournament, the Bloodsmoot.

Isengrim Bloodsmoot Video:


In the Yule Tournament the Jarlsguard earned 3^rd place, having been defeated twice by the same Blue Vengeance team. Because we had climbed both brackets we also ended up playing more games then any other team in the tournament. Our final record was 6-2.

Yule Tournament Bracket:

Spoiler

For the Solaris VII Viking Lance Tournament(SVLT) the Jarlsguard retained three of the four veterans from the Yule Tournament. They are:

Cruxholzer: (Present all 8 matches /16 total counting the Yule Tournament)
Cruxholzer won the Assault bracket in the Bloodsmoot with an Atlas. He took an Atlas into the Yule Tournament, and used a Victor in the SVLT Tournament. He’s an Hersir (Lance Commander) in the Isengrim and 2^nd in command of the Jarlsguard.

Mech The Dane: (8 Matches/16 total)
I placed 2^nd in the Medium bracket for the Bloodsmoot running a Hunchback. I also took that Hunchback into the Yule Tournament, whereas in the SVLT I piloted a Victor.

Ryvakhan: (8 Matches/16 total)
Unfortunately there was no light bracket in the Bloodsmoot so Ryvakhan did not compete. However he was a well-known Light Pilot in the Isengrim without an attachment to any other Freelance. He ran a Raven in Yule Tournament and the SVLT.

Due to scheduling conflicts the fourth member of our lance was different every week.

Hans Davion: (4 matches)
As a new member of both the Jarlsguard and the Isengrim Hans Davion had no previous tournament experience. He ran a Cicada in the first four matches of the tournament.

LSUTigerTank: (1 match)
LSUTigerTank was 2^nd place in the Assault bracket for the Bloodsmoot in his Atlas. He did not participate in the Yule Tournament, but was brought to replace Hans Davion for the 2^nd week of tournament play, where he ran the Cicada. In the Isengrim he’s Huskarl (2^nd in Command) of the Pop-Tartan Freelance.

Twitch2120: (3 matches)
Although playing and winning a round in the medium bracket of the Bloodsmoot, due to an erratic schedule Twitch2120 wasn’t able to participate beyond that. He also did not participate in the Yule Tournament. He is however, a prolific Mech Assault 2 veteran. He’s a member of the Pop-Tartan Freelance and took LSUTigerTank/Hans Davion’s position for the final week of tournament play.

Our Build:
We didn’t plan beforehand on going with a two Victor lance. An hour before the tournament started we got together and started brainstorming what options were available to use due to our specific ‘mech masteries. It was a little difficult, as the Jarlsguard had originally been assembled to have good pilots for each weight class and the SVLT weight limit was not giving us a chance to fall into that old pattern. Once we learned that Hans Davion could pilot a Cicada, the two Victor build sort of just fell into our laps.

Selected Match Summaries:

Qualification Match #1_______________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs Iron Serpents


Unbeknownst to most people, the Iron Serpents is actually an ex-Isengrim team. They broke away from us in early January. That made this specific battle, our very first in the tournament, a deeply personal one. It was also the first test of our build. It was successful on both accounts and Hans Davion even got the high score in his Cicada.



Qualification Match #2_______________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs SoR: StallagtIKE


I am bringing up this match because there was some concern (voiced by Damon Howe – who was not present in the match) that our starting position gave us an unfair advantage over the SoR team. As you can see from our video we were given first ambiguous, then incorrect coordinates from the BV representative on our team. More importantly though, Damon stated that we were in an over-watch position when the match started that put the SoR team at a disadvantage, as you can see in the video this isn’t the case. At the start of the battle we are never looking down at the team, nor are we taking easy shots at them. In fact, early on in that match we were in very poor position and took most of the first hits. They then had a Stalker who took a higher position over us. It wasn’t until we rushed the Stalker that the tide of battle began to turn in our favor. Hopefully this video will dismiss any doubt as the fairness of that fight.



Qualification Match #4_______________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs 1stRDR: Muspel


Twice in the tournament we got very lucky in the random map selection. This is the first time. The 1stRDR: Muspel won the Yule Tournament and we recognized them as a serious threat to us in this one. Furthermore they ran a lance with three heavies (Cataphract, JagerMech and Thunderbolt), we hadn’t fought a team like that yet and I was afraid they’d be able to do more damage then my Victors could handle.

We lucked out and got Canyon Network. We were able to get in close and have the brawl we wanted with them, utilizing the advantage of our jump jets as best we could.



Qualification Match #5_______________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs BV: Beep Bop

We lost this match. Interestingly enough, this BV lance had a lot of the same faces as the BV lance that beat us twice in the Yule Tournament. They set up an excellent trap where they used my aggressive predisposition to their advantage. I made the wrong call and they ate my team alive. When it comes to Jarl-slaying, these guys know what they are doing. Mad props to their Jenner, Kazama –you better believe after the Yule and SVLT we know who you are.



Finals Match #7_______________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs ASEET: IVth Y.M.C.A. Squad


I had done my homework on these guys. I had watched all their streamed battles up to this match and taken notes.

Here’s what I knew. They always brought three Shadowhawks and one Cataphract. They usually brought AC20’s but I had seen them also use Large Lasers. Their Shadowhawks only went 77KPH.

Even though my Victors had more armor then any one of their ‘mechs, in a close brawl it was going to four AC20’s versus two AC20’s and I was not confident my Victor’s could survive that sort of fight. Furthermore, once my Victor’s were dead the Shadowhawk’s SSRMs (with BAP) would rip apart my remaining lighter ‘mechs.

The thing was, both my Victors went faster than 80KPH. This meant that if I wanted to, I could always outrun them. Also if they brought the AC20’s their weapons would mostly be short-medium range. So if I brought some range, in theory I could stay in front of them and snipe at them from afar.

My concern was, what if they brought large lasers instead of AC20s? With this in mind, I decided to keep Victors the way they were but have my Cicada, Twitch2120, bring two PPCs. That way I’d still have most my brawling power if I needed it, but if long range was the way to go I’d be capable of making that happen.

Then I got my 2^nd really lucky map selection. The match was on Alpine. It worked out just as I planned and earned the Jarlsguard a position in the championship match. I’d like to thank the IVth Y.M.C.A. for being such good sports though, I know that wasn’t the fight you expected and it was probably very frustrating – but we couldn’t ignore a possible hole in your armor.



Championship Match # 8_____________________________________________________________
ISEN: Jarlsguard vs DHB: Doktor Totenkopf


I’m not the only person who probably noticed the final fight in this tournament had both Victor teams meeting up. I like to think it has more to do with skill and luck then with a Victor’s just being OP in this tournament.

Like I said before, I had done my homework. Doktor Totenkopf’s team was good. Two Victors with AC20’s, Large Lasers and STD engines along with two very skilled Jenner Pilots, it was hard to see a way to beat these guys. I knew going in though, that his Jenner pilots were the more serious threat. In all the close matches I had watched his team fight in, it was the Jenner pilots who would win it for the team.

Working with what I had, I didn’t see a way to game this match to my advantage. We were just going to have to slug it out and see where the cards fell. We decided the best thing we could do was kill the Victors as quickly and cleanly as possible and hope that enough of us survived in good enough health to give us a chance against the Jenners. I instructed my Raven (Ryvakhan) and Cicada (Twitch2120) to bring their best anti-light builds.

We charged his team the first chance we got, we couldn’t survive some long drawn out fight with Jenners harassing us, and got in the Victors faces. Up close our SRMs were more useful then their Large Lasers, my Victors were also quicker and more maneuverable than their Victors and thus, keeping with our plan, we were able to down them both very quickly.

The aftermath of this initial fight was not all roses though. Both my legs were armor-less, one of them orange and the other red ( I wonder if they were targeting my legs or if I was hit by an art/air strike?). Crux’s legs were in better shape, but he had a side torso that was red and exposed. Both of us would be easy pickings for a skilled and attentive light pilot. Besides our weapons weren’t really the best for fighting Jenners, this part of the battle was really our Cicada and Raven’s show.

Our Victors took up positions in the Citadel. Crux was on the 2^nd level and I had managed to jump jet to the very top. We used this placement to help our ‘mechs on the ground keep sight of the Jenners movements. As the ‘mechs engaged in the water we lobbed a couple shots at the Jenners, but they were mostly ineffective. Eventually the Jenners took a moment out to kill Crux, and then me. We knew it was going to happen and hoped that the distraction of killing us gave our other battling ‘mechs an edge.

The rest is history. The two on two became a one on two, that become a one on one, which became a one. It was a very close match and fitting end to the tournament.


Final Thoughts:
Now, I know in these sorts of things you’re always supposed to think positive and have absolute certainty in yourself and your teammates. But I didn’t think we’d win this tournament. I have the upmost faith and respect for my guys, but there were a lot of good teams in this and the road seemed long and unlikely. We had gotten 3^rd Place in the Yule Tournament and I was very proud of that fact. It was my hope in this one we’d get a similar place. We didn’t have to cement ourselves as the best lance, but we could at least prove that we’ll always be a good one.

And that is how I still feel. In future tournaments we’ll show up and we’ll give it our best and hopefully we’ll continue to place in the top four and prove to everyone watching that we’re serious contenders.

I love these tournaments. I love that Blue Vengeance picked up where the Yule Tournament left off and hosted another one of these. I think they are good for the MWO Community, for the FRR and for our individual clans. Competitive 4v4 engagements are something that we do not ordinarily get in this game and that is a real shame.

In a game that encourages teams to divide themselves into lances, there are very few places for an individual lance to showcase its skills. Even in 12man drops, the snowball effect and other factors heavily mire a lances chance to shine. Pug drops are even worse, as you rarely will ever find your lance in a fair fight with another lance.

Only in these kinds of tournaments can a lance free itself from the company and really show what it is capable of. And I believe that builds a better lance.

In my experience, the Isengrim lances who have competed in these tournaments have all grown closer as a result. We’ve taken paper-lances and turned them into something people believe in and take pride in. I think that is the ultimate gift of these tournaments and I hope this one was only the 2^nd of long line of proud tournaments to come.

-Jarl Mech The Dane of the Isengrim

[martino2k6]

Mech The Dane, on 17 February 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I’m not the only person who probably noticed the final fight in this tournament had both Victor teams meeting up. I like to think it has more to do with skill and luck then with a Victor’s just being OP in this tournament.

There's obviously skill involved here, but we also have a case of min-maxing. It's a tactic that has been used in competition drops for a while, and it generally yields good results. I wouldn't be surprised if it played a part in here as well. While the tonnage restriction was good, it may be a further improvement to also restrict the classes to 1/1/1/1 for these lance compositions. Otherwise in the next tournament with similar rules you'll see people look at what the winners did well, and you will encounter more teams min-maxing their lances. Everyone wants to win, and they'll do as much as they can within the rules to give them an edge. It's just human nature.

Serious/boring stuff aside, congrats to the winners and to everyone that participated!

[Damon Howe]

I think the only way to truly enforce that something isn't min/maxed is by enforcing a 'stock-only' policy...

[StalaggtIKE]

SEN: Jarlsguard vs SoR: StallagtIKE: I'll give a bit of my perspective on our match. The issue wasn't so much if one team got an advantage over the other. It was that it was a botched start; thus potentially unfair for either side. It just happens the Jarlsguard's composition was better equipped for a brawl in the caldera. Even had the fight gone in our favor, we would have felt uneasy about the start. Thankfully to our voicing of concerns the tournament format was changed to dictate individual locations per team. Either way the Jarls fought a good fight and it probably would have gone the same even if there had been a rematch.

@Mech the Dane: All of that aside you were well prepared, brought your best men and put on a great show. Congrats on your victories, you earned them.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 18 February 2014 - 07:47 PM.

[Doktor Totenkopf]

Hej,

well I said it before and I say it again, this has been a blast. And I agree with previous statements, that this game needs tournaments like this. Great job BV and thanks for letting us Mercs play ball with you guys.

I personally think I already had all my critique listens too. The only one thing I would have liked for the finals would have been earlier, 2h less tiredness might have made a difference. But hell lets not take it away from the winners they won fair and square.

Concerning tournament meta, you can surely bring the same mechs. But will it help you win?

martino2k6, on 17 February 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

There's obviously skill involved here, but we also have a case of min-maxing.

martino2k6 has a point or more excatly two. Bringing 2 Victors and 2 Jenners (or 1 Raven and 1 Cicada) is min-maxing. But and there we come back to his first point, there is skill involved. Not only in the individual piloting and gunnery, but also in building a mech to the specifications of the rules, in running it in a 4man team and the list goes on and on.
Also having multiples of any one mech makes it easier to blend in, as seen by the 3SHD teams. Its much harder to pick one out. So yes maybe having 1/1/1/1 would be interessting for the next one as so many people already pointed out.

We actually considered changing our mechs after the qualifiers. But hours in a cockpit make a difference. While I could have easily switched to a Stalker, have so many more hours played in my Jenner. This is something that would be really interessting for future tournaments, if you run it BO3 and allow people to switch mechs between matches. Add a whole new level of meta.

In the end I just want to say thanks for having us.


Cheers,
Dok

[Malzel]

I enjoyed the weight limit and pinpoint restrictions, because it did add a new facet to the game. It was fun to design combinations that fit within the weight limit, and use weapon loadouts that were a little more diverse than the usual AC/PPC combos. (I enjoy the AC/PPC meta just fine, by the way, but variety is the spice of life)

But at the same time, I'm a little perplexed by the concerns and complaints about the widespread use of AC/20s, or trying to restrict us from bringing 2 of the same mechs if it's within the weight limit. Tournaments are competitive events. That's kinda the point, so competitive players are going to bring what works best. If you're playing American football, you want a 300-pound linebacker on your team, not an anemic kid in shoulder pads. If you're street racing, you want a sports car, not a minivan. It's not wrong to bring the most effective tool for the job.

I liked the restrictions because it made the experience different and made it a little more accessible to folks who don't usually play in tournaments. But there's a line between laying down some minor restrictions that change the metagame, and trying to take the "competitiveness" out of a competitive sport. If you pile on too many restrictions to try and keep competitive players from using competitive setups, you're going to start discouraging those competitive players from participating in your event.

Edited by Malzel, 17 February 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

I felt that the current restrictions were perfect, no additionals are necessary. By the time the game has private matches, it will likely be an entirely different beast, meta-wise. Even Paul's latest posts have him looking at JJ.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 17 February 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Klappspaten]

StalaggtIKE, on 17 February 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

... Instead of airing dirty laundry in such a public site, ...

Although I understand your concerns about this you are aiing dirty laundry yourself right here.
Issues like that are only aproachable in a personal manner.

[VXJaeger]

Klappspaten, on 16 February 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

Strikes: In the future events I will most certainly limit the number of strikes a team can carry. I want them in the game since they are a good way to get a game that is stuck running again, but it have been a little too much on some occassions.

We carried 1 arty/mech, but that ain't even secondary or tertiary choice to use as weapon to us. Only time we had to use them heavily was at pronze match, when we had to run across open field to get to close combat which is our "speciality".

So we bombarded Skjaldborg / howe heavily to keep their heads down, but on most of other matches it wasn't even remotely necessary to use them at all. Against Mechanized Hussars I used one on that Jester to prevent him from exploding me to pieces, and these 2 occations are only ones that I used my arties.

Edited by VXJaeger, 18 February 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Klappspaten, on 18 February 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Although I understand your concerns about this you are aiing dirty laundry yourself right here.
Issues like that are only aproachable in a personal manner.

You are correct. I have edited my post.

[Stormwolfe13]

Iron Serpent would like to extend a hearty congratulations to the Isengrim Jarlsguard for their awesome performance in the tournament. They certainly kicked our asses! We also wish to congratulate the other participants as well for their performances. There was some damn fine piloting in this tournament for sure!

Last, but by no means least, we wish to thank Blue Vengeance, Klappspaten, and all those who assisted in making this tournament possible. Iron Serpent, while faring poorly, had good fun participating! Thanks again!

Edited by Stormwolfe13, 19 February 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[Peiper]

The Devil Dogs are interested in entering into the next tournament. I visited the Blue Vengence site, which was in German and google didn't want to translate it. I'll try to hang out on the FRR HUB later tonight to find someone to talk to about entering.

[Klappspaten]

Peiper, on 19 February 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The Devil Dogs are interested in entering into the next tournament. I visited the Blue Vengence site, which was in German and google didn't want to translate it. I'll try to hang out on the FRR HUB later tonight to find someone to talk to about entering.

At the moment we are working at the revisited ruleset and concept for the next tournament. You can expect to see some kind of announcement within the next 4 weeks.
We will wait for the release of the launch module and since it is announced for mid april we are currently aiming at march.

If anyone has questions about the past or upcoming tournament I will be happy to answer all of them. But please be aware that it will be significantly larger than the last one and we have a lot of work ahead to make it happen. March is a tight scedule, so dont get impatient, you will hear about it soon.

Edited by Klappspaten, 19 February 2014 - 10:24 AM.