38 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Hello Mechwarriors!

I like to see what the opinions are on the following tweaks. This might help to change the "Meta".

Multi-shot burstfire would strain the netcode and is currently not an option, but a slightly faster rate of fire with less one-shot potential (less damage per bullet) might be a good option.
Please read the post and vote.


Changelog:
- changed Dmg, cooldown, range, ammo and heat for all balistic weapons.
- UACs are the fastes with lowest max damage per bullet.
- LBX are the slowest (nearly like now) with the highest max damage per shot.
- ACs are in the middle.
- PPCs are also faster with less damage.
- All AC classes are about the same dps/hps wise.
- ammo/ton dependend on damage to keep average of 140-160 damage / ton as we have now
- Added PPCs to the Gauss group (as first point)

Expected results in gameplay balance:
- less "brutal" groupfire combos (e.g. dual UAC20)
- higher aiming skill required to land all shots to keep up dps (especially AC20 and UAC20)
- less range for the big-hit weapons seperating sniping from brawling.
- bigger differences between LBX, AC and UACs.
- no obvious "best" weapon (free choice and no "META")

First, the values of current game (as of dez. 2013) vs the tweaked numbers:

Table
Original:

Tweaked:



Some comparison graphs follow.
Please note the 4 points for the Gauss curve are: PPC, Light Gauss, Gauss, Heavy Gauss (Instead of AC2, AC5, AC10, AC20).


DPS
Original:

Tweaked:



HPS
Original:

Tweaked:



DPS/Ton
Original:

Tweaked:



DPS/HPS
Original:

Tweaked:



DPHPS/Ton
Original:

Tweaked:



Damage/Heat
Original:

Tweaked:

[Bhael Fire]

Weapons are fine in this game. Flamers and SRMs need some love, but for the most part, weapons are balanced well.

[Mcgral18]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Weapons are fine in this game. Flamers and SRMs need some love, but for the most part, weapons are balanced well.

Now now, we know there is a clear advantage to 3X range and frontloaded damage. Add low heat and fast firing and it just makes them that much preferable.

But if SRMs were actually viable in close range, they might just beat ACs in a brawl.

We need some sort of mechanic to spread damage on ACs, otherwise they have a clear advantage.

[Bhael Fire]

Mcgral18, on 29 December 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Now now, we know there is a clear advantage to 3X range and frontloaded damage.

Some think there is a clear advantage. There isn't.

Slow projectile speed and ballistics drop completely counteracts these things.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 29 December 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Some think there is a clear advantage. There isn't.

Slow projectile speed and ballistics drop completely counteracts these things.

Nothing counteracts frontloaded damage, not even torso twisting if the other pilot is competent. All the damage at once, which cannot be spread by twisting. Most ACs also have inflated damage when compared to TT, even with doubled armor. Worst case being the AC2, which has a net 10 times better effectiveness when compared to TT, but only 2X for the AC10 (which is still rather underwhelming). A short burst would make the larger ACs spread their damage, which I think would help with balance.

Of course, we could always try more ghost heat....

[Bhael Fire]

Mcgral18, on 29 December 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Nothing counteracts frontloaded damage, not even torso twisting if the other pilot is competent.

It counteracts it by limiting the probability of hitting. Ballistic weapons are harder to hit with than energy weapons, especially against fast moving mechs.

[Reno Blade]

It's easier to hit with balistic, if you are not shooting a fast mech at 1000+ meters.
And scratching someone with a LLaser for 2 damage does not compete vs full 5, 10 or 20 damage of AC5-20 or PPCs.
Twisting and moving around is only partly helping against balistics. You have to twist back to shoot yourself and then you will get all these bullets right into your vulnerable Torso.
Staying pointed right at the enemies barrel when using 1second beam weapons makes you an easy target.

Burstfire seems like the easiest choice, but it's not an option sadly.

The overall balance is quite good, but all balistic (one-shot-all-damage) weapons have the advantage.
AC40 Jaegers are very easy to play, even with ghost heat. So are 2PPC+2UAC5 or 2PPC+AC20 Mechs.
You see even medium and heavy mechs with 2PPC + AC10 /AC5 because these combos are better than any laser/missile combos.
It might change with working SRMs, but time-to-kill won't change if SRMs get fixed. It will just be a race of arms.

I like to have this thread to discuss the mentioned tweaks.

[Firewuff]

Burst fire wouldn't stress netcode at all.. Lasers effectively do this right now and mgs are similar.

I don't see the meta needs to change. Why does it need to change?

[Corvus Antaka]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Some think there is a clear advantage. There isn't.

Slow projectile speed and ballistics drop completely counteracts these things.

My quad ac/5 jaegger disagrees with you. My Annihalator is waiting to show you the truth

The values are interesting.

I dislike such long recycle times and lower damage on brawling guns like the lbx/20 and ac/20 values. I greatly prefer mech3's fast recyling terrifying brawling guns, but those had multishots, which would likely improve the situation and help spread damage esp on mediums and faster heavies.

This is my only concern with the values you have posted here Reno. I like the ac/20 at 20 dmg with 4 s recycle. For it to come out the same I'd feel it'd need to be 12 dmg at 2s recycle vs the 3.5 you have now.

But in terms of raw numbers this does look good and interesting from a purely math perspective.

Esp interesting is the curves/graphs on current ballistics, which cleary show why the ac/5 is so good esp when boated. A large degree of this is ammo & norespawn too.

More helpful feedback to discuss the ballistics vs other weapons balance in an environment where currently ammo is of almost no consideration is what would be helpful at this time.

what I do see in your numbers is the "Double shot"

ie adjust your numbers a touch more so ac/20 is 10 dmg per round, but shoots 2 rounds per shot. thus uac/20 would be 4 bullets per shot, and normals would be 2 bullets.

that i could see working.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 29 December 2013 - 09:00 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 December 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

My quad ac/5 jaegger disagrees with you. My Annihalator is waiting to show you the truth

Says one skilled player to another...

Let's fight!

[Corvus Antaka]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Says one skilled player to another...

Let's fight!

The irony is that if we could do private matches and duels and try out various equal type builds vs each other & with about equal skill pilots it'd be a lot easier to showcase which weapons (if any) do dominate all others currently.

I'll find you when you're ready.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 29 December 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Reno Blade]

If you wonder about UACs in the table. The cooldown include double-tap. So a UAC20 would shoot every 3.6 sec without (0.1 slower than the AC20).
This might make jamming obsolete, but thats not part of the numbers.
It might also lead to another chainge, if neccessary - no more "normal" fire - always double tap.

I put the AC20s with such a cooldown to get the results in the curves (dps, hps, etc.) otherwise they would be higher (like in the original).
We might see a mix of old/new values to get the golden middle.

Burstfire AC vs Laser is a big difference in Netcode, (afaik).
Each bullet position in 3D space is calculated by the server, while the laser is a hitscan weapon (instant 2 points calculation) only.
Afaik a change to 5-bullet burst would be too much in the curent netcode, while the change of RoF to about 2x the original would be less of a strain.
Obviously, I don't know how much performance or hitdetection would suffer with burstfire, but any noticable negative impact on these two aspects of the game ... you see where I come from

Edited by Reno Blade, 30 December 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Bhael Fire, on 29 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Some think there is a clear advantage. There isn't.

Slow projectile speed and ballistics drop completely counteracts these things.

It really doesn't. Bullet drop is minor in MWO, and the projectile speeds aren't particularly slow if you're using the weapon at it's effective ranges. Frontloaded damage is king in MWO, pure and simple, and ACs do it for very little opportunity cost. Enough heatsinks to run an energy build is more constraining than a match's worth of ammo, and the minor increase in aiming difficulty isn't worth the inflated heat energy suffers. Even if those two factorswere equal, however, ACs would still do pinpoint damage, making them superior to lasers.

[Dirus Nigh]

The problem with AC20s being able to snipe is not the fault of the cannon. It's the effective range/max range and damage drop off system.

[Reno Blade]

Another nice "side effect" of these tweaks: we would be able to remove ghostheat from (most) of these.

[Reno Blade]

Some pinpoint meta builds with these changes:
HGN-733C with 2x PPC 2x UAC5 would do about the same DPS, but ALPHA damage of 6+6 (PPCs) + 4+4 (UAC5s) = 20 instead of 30.

Builds with 2x PPCs and AC10 would do 6+6+6 = 18 damage instead of 30.
Builds with 2x PPCs and AC20 would do 6+6+12 = 24 damage instead of 40.
Builds with 4x PPC would do 4x 6 = 24 damage instead of 40.
Builds with 2x AC20 would do 12+12 = 24 damage instead of 40.
Builds with 2x UAC20 would do a double shot of 8+8 = 32 damage instead of 80 in one double-tap alpha.
Builds with 2x LBX20 would do 20+20 = still 40, but spread over the whole mech.
Builds with 2x Gauss would still do 15+15 = 30 damage with the lowest RoF and longest range = sniper rifle.

Now you might cry "don't nerf!", but your higher rate of fire of the PPC (2.5sec) would let you use that AC10's 2.4 sec cooldown more often in your beloved "alpha".

Result effect:
more time to survive,
less instant-kill on medium mechs with XL,
= leads to more medium mech viability and better balance between big weapon platform assaults and medium weapon size and amount on smaller mechs.

Edited by Reno Blade, 06 January 2014 - 03:55 AM.

[Levon K]

I think you should buff / fix the weaker weapons first. Then you can address ballistics if need be afterwards.

[Reno Blade]

Levon K, on 06 January 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

I think you should buff / fix the weaker weapons first. Then you can address ballistics if need be afterwards.

Are you talking about SRM / MLaser or MG and Flamers?

It's always better to "nerf" the stronger weapons to reduce time-to-kill than to bring other weapons up, if the intent is not to have instant-kill game play.

[Reno Blade]

Need more votes&feedback.

[Reno Blade]

Another take on the weapons.
This one mainly tweaks range and speeds.

Edited by Reno Blade, 20 January 2014 - 01:12 PM.