112 replies to this topic

[juxstapo]

Theory and philosophy again, this isn't intended as a "Compare my Smurfy to his Smurfy" thread.

Just as soon as they patched in, my brother sprung for the Protector and I followed suit.
Once the standards hit I snagged a -K (yaay), and a -VA (boooo). Now I've found numerous builds that give solid performance to the Onion, but... has anyone else nailed down a particular role for this thing?

The very low slung weapons mounts, save for the missle rack, might suggest a brawler, or at least a close range specialist, but personally my experience in this regard hasn't been favorable. (Mostly pilot error I'm sure).

The two places where the Orion seems to 'fit' (to me, I must be quick to aknowledge this is all opinion and conjecture), is either as an LRM carrier; not so much a "boat" as a "mech carrying a lot of em"). Or as a medium range direct fire support.

As I said, the fact that the weapons are mounted right on the centerline preclude much long
range sniping, you simply have to expose too much of the mech. And for me the in-your-face performance has been poor. But if you stick it on the second string and use it to direct fire against the opponents of the brawlers/front line units, then it really seems to shine. However, I kinda hate the fact that I've drawn this opinion about a lot of heavies, know what I mean?
"This mech is really great as long as they are shooting at everyone else!!"
Pilot error and poor technique again.

I can't overstate that this is intended as a good nature'd over-a-cuppa-joe discussion of theory and opinions, not a hostile and competitive Mechlab comparo/critique

[Redshift2k5]

Once you get used to it's hardpoint height it works out fine, it's a good platform if you want balanced or mixed loadouts (although they all offer 1-2 ballistics to form the core of your DPS)

[PenitentTangent]

Well, i've only piloted the protector and only once on my friend's account, so I can't speak as if I own one.

But, from what I've gathered, the Orion is the American tank of WW2; multipurpose design, able to fill many roles on the battlefield, doesn't excel in any particular area.

The Jack of all trades, Master of none.

That's my take on it at least.

[juxstapo]

Redshift2k5, on 30 December 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

it's a good platform if you want balanced or mixed loadouts

PenitentTangent, on 30 December 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

The Jack of all trades, Master of none.

Thats pretty much what I'm concluding as well.
I will say that it's one of my favorite mechs to run a TT style build in (like, one of evrything.) Wouldn't take it to a 12-man but occasionally rocking a "Meh, here's a laser, here's some missles, how 'bout a cannon" build instead of a purpose-optimized is fun from time to time.
Narrate it in your head like you're in one of the fluff battles.

"Acrid sweat stung Jux's eyes as the Protector's heat spiked in response to the precipitous power draw. His particle cannon lashed out, scouring a glowing rent in the opposing Cataphract's shoulder. It's pilot shifted position in response to the threat and cut loose with autocannon and lasers."

...not that any of use would do such silly nonsense

[Selfish]

In theory it's supposed to be a mixed range fire support/juggernaut. Its hitbox changes made it better to run with Standard Engines to fulfill that role. However, with the loss of reliable SRMs there isn't much reason to run bracket or mixed hardpoint brawling builds. Brawling was in a tenuous place even when SRMs had inflated damage due to poorly implemented splash mechanics. The loss of splash, firing spread rework, reduction of SRM damage, ghost heat, and bad hit-registration have really pounded the weapon system into the ground.

What this results in is most players setting up Orions as direct fire (AC/20+Mlas, PPC+AC/s, etc) but the Orion doesn't have a great profile for that. You can also use long range weapons, or indirect fire like LRMs on certain variants, to get around its profile.

[NRP]

It's a mech to run when you're bored of running other mechs.

[Devil Fox]

The way I view the Orion (and one reason I skipped this mech entirely) is that with the hitbox layout, and the scene of brawling being more reliant on laser/AC fire then SRM's, that the Orion fit more into a fire support role. Completely LRM boating doesn't really work like it does for the smaller cousin of the Catapult or Daddy of the Stalkers/Battlemasters.

Their hitbox and size are the first disadvantage to the machine, in a brawl their pretty easy to core, and if you spot them along or right up the back of a pack are easy to isolate or pinpoint core. I found they tend to do reasonably with mixed load-outs and staying just behind the lines as direct fire support for the brawlers, or loading up on LRM's with some direct fire weapons like LL or PPC's and staying in the 3-400m zone providing rolling thunder support.

I rarely see Orion's now on the field, and when I do it's "Oh look an Orion, an easy kill"... I've sadly never seen a truly awesome pilot in one yet to actually make the chassis worth the pain to field them.

[Victor Morson]

Another 'mech I love in the canon, but hate in MW:O.

Well, maybe not hate. They're really not bad; they can be legitimate threats and don't have any glaring weaknesses. It's just that the Cataphract and Victor do what it does, better than it does, so it's just kind of.. there.

I really wish they had a tiered hardpoint system.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 December 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Roughneck45]

My favorite brawling mech. Mini Atlas D on the K variant is tons of fun.

It has the tonnage to do whatever you want, but the low slung nature of the hardpoints make it a natural brawler.

[fleshwoundNPG]

I can't figure out its purpose as well. It's called a mini-Atlas, but I have my Protector set up like a mini-Misery. It has similar hardpoints (just 2 less energies in its arms) so I made it into a brawler.

My Misery is AC/20, LLAS, 4xMLAS and my Protector is AC/20, erLLAS, 2xMLAS. The two things it does have going for it is that it can be faster and run cooler than a my Misery, so there's that...but the Misery just fights and stays alive far, far better. I can get some impressive kill streaks with the Misery, but the Protector gets cored much easier (even after PGI fixed the 'boxes) and can't quite do as much damage in return (I know it's 10 tons lighter, but still).

Perhaps if I unlock all the atributes (almost mastered the ON1 tree) it will perform greater, but yes the 'phract and the VIctor can probably do what it does a bit better.

[Elyam]

Once weight restrictions are in, the Orion will gain greater attention.

[Modo44]

My usage for the Orion is a medium range **** you. You can take awesome firepower, make it run cool, and have a very efficient turret (wide-range, fast torso movement). Take a modest XL engine (XL300 to XL325) for extra scary builds. Make enemies come to you, or be the wingman to an assault. You can slip the Atlas cape on when needed (i.e. with very light teams), but it is not your main role.

[WVAnonymous]

The Orion is one of those mechs that makes you have issues with the concept of "giant stompy robots". If I were really building one of these things, the pilot would be in the chest, you would have cameras on the shoulders, and all the weapons would be at shoulder height. Like a Jagermech, but without the silly head antenna.

Given that many mech designs are silly at best, the Orion is a fair mech, but not the Heavy class category killer I had hoped for when they announced it.

[Kenyon Burguess]

the orion is a multi-range fighter and it will shine more when tonnage limits hit the game. at 75 tons it can carry the burden of lrm support with direct fire and and save the lance the 25tons instead of using an atlas.

[BaconCouch]

Its a pocket atlas. The battlecruiser to the Atlas's Battleship.
It packs a lot of firepower and armor into a heavy mech, and can engage at any range really, with decent speed and a smaller profile.
Lrms --> MLas --> AC20 for the win

Once weight balancing is in, it'll be all the rage i think.

Edited by BaconCouch, 02 January 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Dan Nashe]

WVAnonymous, on 02 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

The Orion is one of those mechs that makes you have issues with the concept of "giant stompy robots". If I were really building one of these things, the pilot would be in the chest, you would have cameras on the shoulders, and all the weapons would be at shoulder height. Like a Jagermech, but without the silly head antenna.

Given that many mech designs are silly at best, the Orion is a fair mech, but not the Heavy class category killer I had hoped for when they announced it.

There's no room in the chest. Giant engine.
maybe you could ride on the back though, baby backpack style!

Howard Taylor's friend said it best:
If you have the tech to build giant walking robots, you have the tech to build better weapons. The only point is intimidation. At which point, you might as well make giant clown robots.

But remember, battlemechs use 1980s civillian tech. You can't rely on cameras. They're not very good.
Although obviously the cockpit should really be a big cocoon wrapped in 2 tons of armor, not exposed. But yeah. Realism has no place in battletech.


Which is ironic, because it has some of the best space stuff in any sci fi game ever. Hell, battlespace treats velocity as wholly independent of acceleration under advanced rules! No other coputer or board game I've ever seen does that. (Hint, constant acceleration in space does not equal constant v!).

[rdmgraziel]

Alot of people just look at how the 'Mechs are implemented in-game and not the concept/theory behind the 'Mech itself. As an example, the Trebuchet is supposed to be LRM support that works WITH other similar 'Mechs (most notably with the stock CN9-A in tow as its defender/LRM assistance). It just never really panned out that way.

The Orion was designed as the ultimate BattleMech. Pick a role associated with the slower heavies, and the Orion can accomplish it (how well is another matter entirely). Role meaning Direct Fire Support, Indirect Fire Support, Brawler, not necessarily "Dual Gauss Sniper" or what have you. It was so good at it, that it was Kerensky's ride of choice, and further inspired the Atlas, which is just a bigger, scarier Orion. However, by this point in the timeline, the Orion is SUPPOSED to have been outclassed by other designs, while still being solid in its own right. But it's still fielded, because it's a proven design and the IS houses have a bunch of 'em.

That's the concept, now about the implementation. Like all the mixed-weapons 'Mechs, it's a jack of all trades, which is its strength and weakness. 75 tons *should* be the sweet-spot for tonnage when it comes to Heavy 'Mechs, in the same way that 35 tons is where you find the best-in-class Lights, 55 is Mediums, and 100 is Assaults. It's got good tube-limitations, so it can LRM boat, but otherwise most of its weaponry is at hip level, and it doesn't have jumpjets. It can't boat ballistics and although it can do 2 AC5s and 2 PPCs, its low weapon hardpoints and lack of jumpjets ensure that there are far better choices for that playstyle. That leaves it as a Brawler, LRM support 'Mech, or a mixed-loadout generalist (which while I personally like, is an unpopular choice).

I can't say too much about its durability/survivability (as I don't own one yet), but it seems to be decently durable, although the left side torso seems to be fairly easy to hit, which makes an XL a risky option, and it acts like it wants to be an Assault, but it's not quite there so it can't be the tip of the spear brawler than an Atlas can be.

So, I'd personally say that it lives up to its concept. You can do alot with an Orion, except go really fast.

[Bilbo]

Roughneck45, on 30 December 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

My favorite brawling mech. Mini Atlas D on the K variant is tons of fun.

It has the tonnage to do whatever you want, but the low slung nature of the hardpoints make it a natural brawler.

Pretty much this. It's now one of my favorite mechs and surprisingly durable.

[oldradagast]

WVAnonymous, on 02 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

The Orion is one of those mechs that makes you have issues with the concept of "giant stompy robots". If I were really building one of these things, the pilot would be in the chest, you would have cameras on the shoulders, and all the weapons would be at shoulder height. Like a Jagermech, but without the silly head antenna.

Given that many mech designs are silly at best, the Orion is a fair mech, but not the Heavy class category killer I had hoped for when they announced it.

Small point of order - I'm almost certain that antenna on the Jager is a sensor pod, so it sort of has to be someplace prominent in order to work well. RF doesn't travel that well through armor. Now, as to if sensor pods should count as "hits" against a mech when struck, that's totally different.

Back to the OP: I don't see too many Orion's being played, but that's not the fault of the Orion, IMHO:

1) Victor's offer about the same tonnage and overall power, but they have jump-jets and somewhat better hitboxes.

2) Cataphracts can typically specialize more, and 1 of them has jump jets.

3) Jagermechs are the masters of ballistics, so those folks go for Jagers.

This leaves the Orion somewhere in the middle. It can do almost anything pretty well (except use jump jets), but it is not as focused as the other mechs listed.

That being said, they are still pretty good and I've never run into one that wasn't a threat, probably because much like other less-seen mechs, the only folks who really play them know how to use them.

[Lucur]

Just hit the orions and got two variants through basics so far.
My impression is that the orion excels at doing the same builds a phract would do but with either a std engine or with little additions, backing up the jack of all trades master of none argument already made. E.g. my k with ac 20, mlas and 2 lrm5s for a bit of long range touch. In a phract i would miss out on those lurms and run a bit hotter.
I also got a second line fire support in my v, sporting ac5s, works rather well as long as i'm staying away from ridges and go for vertical cover.
Lack of jumpjets feat. low weapons-mounts still hurts against the current meta though (but what outside HGNs doesn't )
making that lovely mini atlas a nogo for 12man drops imo.