109 replies to this topic

[Varent]

I was reffering to that yes. And same with slave, it appears they are using modules in general to institute those things. They could always take on the convergence bonus from the tree and turn it into a module *shrug*

[Shredhead]

Skyfaller, on 04 January 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

TT had random hit location of that AC20. Here we have pinpoint accuracy. Aka those 2xAC20 are hitting the same location at once. Burst fire would spread out that damage in a manner more consistent with TT gameplay.

And that's why an AC20 in MWO only does half the damage of a TT AC20. DUH!

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 05 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

I was reffering to that yes. And same with slave, it appears they are using modules in general to institute those things. They could always take on the convergence bonus from the tree and turn it into a module *shrug*

But if convergeance is instantaneous, wouldn't it be just as meaningless?

Shredhead, on 05 January 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

And that's why an AC20 in MWO only does half the damage of a TT AC20. DUH!

You mean 2.5 times as much, since you are firing much faster. Although since armor is doubled, I suppose its only 1.25 times TT damage.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 January 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Its all about endurance, speed, skill and range tradeoffs.

Energy mechs will outlast every ammomech on the field in a long fight typically.

Ammo Mechs take alot more skill to hit targets accurately because of ballistics, and travel time.

You can put damage on a fast mech all day long with a Large or ER laser because its an instantaneous hit, but with PPC's or Autocannons you have to lead your shots perfectly and dynamically based on range, motion and speed of the target.

Generally speaking, Energy mechs have a great advantage when it comes to combating scout mechs (partly due to strange hitreg against fast targets)

If you miss a couple shots with your Laser, no big deal, you're not losing potential damage, but with Ammo weapons, 1 shot missed is 1 shot lost and potential damage gone.

Its still a big tradeoff as well when using ammomechs, those who have put way more ammo than they need so they won't run out during a long fight, have sacrificed something else, either speed, range, or armor to do so.

There is also the case of how you engage these enemies, if you run out right in front of Jagermech 1 on 1, odds are you're going to have a bad day, use his weaknesses instead of bitching that you can't go face to face in a 100m fight with an AC-20/40 Jagmech.

I still believe that any of the aforementioned problems are moot, its a different problem all together, one that we all know.

Its the random matchmaking that is the issue here.

IMO, thats the core of the problem.

We don't need more nerfs and dumbing down weapons in the game.


We need games that don't stack 4 ECM atlas's and 3 Jaggermechs VS a bunch of scouts and medium mechs with maybe 1 Assault if they're lucky.

We need weight class and DPS damage balanced between the 2 teams, fairly.

[Sandpit]

Mister D, on 05 January 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

We don't need more nerfs and dumbing down weapons in the game.


We need games that don't stack 4 ECM atlas's and 3 Jaggermechs VS a bunch of scouts and medium mechs with maybe 1 Assault if they're lucky.

We need weight class and DPS damage balanced between the 2 teams, fairly.

QFT all the way around

[Foxfire]

Eh.. making AC's into burst weapons isn't really dumbing them down.. since you can't dumb down damage anymore than instant application of all damage(unless you remove any and all aiming requirements for said damage).

The biggest benefit of such a change is that it makes frontloading damage a bit more difficult which is, IMO, not a bad thing.

Edited by Foxfire, 05 January 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[Varent]

Foxfire, on 05 January 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Eh.. making AC's into burst weapons isn't really dumbing them down.. since you can't dumb down damage anymore than instant application of all damage(unless you remove any and all aiming requirements for said damage).

The biggest benefit of such a change is that it makes frontloading damage a bit more difficult which is, IMO, not a bad thing.

This is incorrect and goes into the advantages and disadvantages of different types of fire as well as the different variations and importances for difference in a shooter.

[Foxfire]

Which goes back to my question from earlier.

How do you balance instant damage weapons with duration weapons without introducing arbitrary systems? So far the only conclusions are that you either shorten the duration that the damage is applied for the stream weapons or you turn the single hit weapons into a stream weapon.

Personally, I'd enjoy the gameplay more if frontloading damage took a hit to make the other weapons more viable instead of making all weapons front loadable. IMO, you would introduce more strategy back into the game while increasing the viability of more build types. Oh, and where I think it will increase strategy is that it puts more of a premium on positioning since, with the exception of the Gauss and PPC's(both of which have drawbacks to them that can be considered significant enough to warrant the up front damage they do), you will have to expose yourself for longer to utilize the full potential of your arsenal.

Another side effect of turning AC's into burst weapons is that you also introduce another variable that can be adjusted for balance reason which, if utilized correctly, should lead for better overall game balance.

[Khobai]

Quote

How do you balance instant damage weapons with duration weapons without introducing arbitrary systems

Look at other games, DoT skills/spells always do way more damage than instant skills/spells.

For example, PPCs should do less damage than LPLs because LPLs are DoT. PPCs should probably only do 8 damage. That would give LPLs 25% more damage because theyre DoT. That sounds about right to me.

The other option would be to make PPCs do splash damage.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[Foxfire]

Khobai, on 05 January 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Look at other games, DoT skills/spells always do way more damage than instant skills/spells.

So for example, a LPL, should do way more damage than a PPC because the LPL is DoT.

That system only works by having the damage applied over a significant amount of time.. something that wouldn't be viable in a game like this.