184 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

You will know when it is slightly Op when 12 mans start useing it. Then just back the time off 5 seconds.

[Karyuudo]

The PPC

For the love of God, PLEASE give the PPC some love! I remember back in open Beta when there were a speed buff for the PPC. That made it a viable weapon. Then it was taken way. Why? PPCs are at a point in the game, presently, where I actually avoid them!

I love the PPC as a weapon. I remember when it has always been the disputable king of Energy weapons in the past MW titles. Now I think and feel that my beloved PPCs are grossly under-powered, slower than they should be, and don't hit nearly as hard as they ought. I would hope to see a few things happen to the PPCs in this game before they become a viable weapon again and before I am satisfied with what PGI is doing with them:

1) Increase PPC travel velocity even slightly.

2) Increase their damage to 11 or 12. 12 tops. They should be the hardest-hitting Energy weapon in the game thus far.

3) Give them the kinetic force of an AC 5 at least.

4) In addition to disabling ECM for 5 sec, PLEASE consider giving them another Ionic effect such as scrambling in-cockpit displays and causing cockpit lights to flicker upon impact. Make it so they are a psychological weapon as well. PPCs are far more than PGI is allowing them to be.

5) Make them look good! Like the PPCs fired by the Warhammer in the old MW5 debut video when it is fighting with the Atlas. That is what I have always pictured PPCs to look like when I read about them in the novels. Anti-mech Lightning Bolts from hell with the intensity of a strobe light!

...Please give the PPC some love! It is a grossly UP, wimpy and clunky weapon right now. I am very disappointed with their current performance.

[FupDup]

Karyuudo, on 12 January 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

The PPC

For the love of God, PLEASE give the PPC some love! I remember back in open Beta when there were a speed buff for the PPC. That made it a viable weapon. Then it was taken way. Why? PPCs are at a point in the game, presently, where I actually avoid them!

I love the PPC as a weapon. I remember when it has always been the disputable king of Energy weapons in the past MW titles. Now I think and feel that my beloved PPCs are grossly under-powered, slower than they should be, and don't hit nearly as hard as they ought. I would hope to see a few things happen to the PPCs in this game before they become a viable weapon again and before I am satisfied with what PGI is doing with them:

1) Increase PPC travel velocity even slightly.

2) Increase their damage to 11 or 12. 12 tops. They should be the hardest-hitting Energy weapon in the game thus far.

3) Give them the kinetic force of an AC 5 at least.

4) In addition to disabling ECM for 5 sec, PLEASE consider giving them another Ionic effect such as scrambling in-cockpit displays and causing cockpit lights to flicker upon impact. Make it so they are a psychological weapon as well. PPCs are far more than PGI is allowing them to be.

5) Make them look good! Like the PPCs fired by the Warhammer in the old MW5 debut video when it is fighting with the Atlas. That is what I have always pictured PPCs to look like when I read about them in the novels. Anti-mech Lightning Bolts from hell with the intensity of a strobe light!

...Please give the PPC some love! It is a grossly UP, wimpy and clunky weapon right now. I am very disappointed with their current performance.

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion of PPCs being underpowered.They still have a pretty fast projectile, and do a good amount of pinpoint damage (as opposed to all other energy weapons) for a fairly manageable amount of heat. They are still a very popular weapon after all of the nerfs, and they are the backbone of nearly all "meta" builds in current gameplay. I'd argue with full confidence that PPCs are easily among the top 3 best weapons in the game at the present moment. They're total beastmode, you just can't go total spaz-attack with them like when they only generated 8 heat.

[MustrumRidcully]

EIther Sandpit or Varent is a Poptart hater, an affliction we share.
It now occured to me that Narc could be a potential wonderful counter tactic, if they were more effective.

Imagine you could manage to attach a Narc to a poptarter while he's poptarting. With the current flight speed of Narcs that is pretty much impossible.Now the Narc stays attached for 30 seconds or so, and doesn't drop off from damage, and gets through ECM. Now LRM boats will counter the poptarts.

Problem I see:
Narc would really need to be a lot faster than it is. Maybe making it PPC fast would justify the low ammo count - it uses massive thrusters to reach such speed. It might even need homing capability (but regular locks are probably too slow...) and a steep flight angle.

Could it be done? Or would it still make Brawlers useless? (I worry about that a bit, but then, LRM boats are bad at close range combat, but then, brawlers also generally bring a lot of firepower at close range that should be a problem to LRM boats and poptarts, but it seems it is not enough of one... Maybe that is the heat system's fault?)

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 January 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

EIther Sandpit or Varent is a Poptart hater, an affliction we share.
It now occured to me that Narc could be a potential wonderful counter tactic, if they were more effective.

Imagine you could manage to attach a Narc to a poptarter while he's poptarting. With the current flight speed of Narcs that is pretty much impossible.Now the Narc stays attached for 30 seconds or so, and doesn't drop off from damage, and gets through ECM. Now LRM boats will counter the poptarts.

Problem I see:
Narc would really need to be a lot faster than it is. Maybe making it PPC fast would justify the low ammo count - it uses massive thrusters to reach such speed. It might even need homing capability (but regular locks are probably too slow...) and a steep flight angle.

Could it be done? Or would it still make Brawlers useless? (I worry about that a bit, but then, LRM boats are bad at close range combat, but then, brawlers also generally bring a lot of firepower at close range that should be a problem to LRM boats and poptarts, but it seems it is not enough of one... Maybe that is the heat system's fault?)

I keep forgetting that the NARC's projectile speed is abysmally slow, compared to many other projectiles.

The AC20 is still faster than the NARC's projectile, despite the recent AC20 nerf.

[Sandpit]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 January 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

EIther Sandpit or Varent is a Poptart hater, an affliction we share.
It now occured to me that Narc could be a potential wonderful counter tactic, if they were more effective.

Imagine you could manage to attach a Narc to a poptarter while he's poptarting. With the current flight speed of Narcs that is pretty much impossible.Now the Narc stays attached for 30 seconds or so, and doesn't drop off from damage, and gets through ECM. Now LRM boats will counter the poptarts.

Problem I see:
Narc would really need to be a lot faster than it is. Maybe making it PPC fast would justify the low ammo count - it uses massive thrusters to reach such speed. It might even need homing capability (but regular locks are probably too slow...) and a steep flight angle.

Could it be done? Or would it still make Brawlers useless? (I worry about that a bit, but then, LRM boats are bad at close range combat, but then, brawlers also generally bring a lot of firepower at close range that should be a problem to LRM boats and poptarts, but it seems it is not enough of one... Maybe that is the heat system's fault?)

?? How am I a poptart hater? lol I could care less what tactics players choose to use. I shoot them just the same as I shoot everyone else. I offer suggestions like increase JJ heat because I know a lot don't like poptarting.

I think a buff in Narc could help counter that now that you mention it though. It would also counter lrms sitting in the rear safely. If you drop a narc on an enemy lrm boat then they have to stop raining on your team. There's lots of things it would do to help change the tactics of the game

[MustrumRidcully]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

I keep forgetting that the NARC's projectile speed is abysmally slow, compared to many other projectiles.

The AC20 is still faster than the NARC's projectile, despite the recent AC20 nerf.

Of course, the logic I see behind it is simple - a Narc is a missile, and PGI decided that missiles are slow, and when they introduced Narc, they didn't really think any further about it.

But it's speed is so incredibly slow that you can really just walk out of the way of Narcs at most ranges. No matter how large its range becomes, without a speed increase, it will only be useable at close range. And the only advantage it has over the TAG, that it attaches and doesn't require constant firing and aiming is neutered because the effect then is too short-lived, and it needs lots of weight.

A speed increase is a must if it's supposed to be used at range, and making it useful at range could alter a lot of things positively for the game. Or maybe it just breaks everything. With PGI, anything is possible.

[Deathlike]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Of course, the logic I see behind it is simple - a Narc is a missile, and PGI decided that missiles are slow, and when they introduced Narc, they didn't really think any further about it.

But it's speed is so incredibly slow that you can really just walk out of the way of Narcs at most ranges. No matter how large its range becomes, without a speed increase, it will only be useable at close range. And the only advantage it has over the TAG, that it attaches and doesn't require constant firing and aiming is neutered because the effect then is too short-lived, and it needs lots of weight.

A speed increase is a must if it's supposed to be used at range, and making it useful at range could alter a lot of things positively for the game. Or maybe it just breaks everything. With PGI, anything is possible.

I'd suggest giving it the current Gauss projectile speed, and nerf further towards current PPC levels as needed. Of course, we could just start in reverse so the overbuff doesn't become silly.

A range buff to go with the NARC projectile buff would be nice though. The range of TAG would be a good start.

[Sug]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

I dunno, I just would like to see it get a little nudge without sending the community into a new QQ storm over it lol

After using NARC the last couple days I've changed my mind. 1 minute duration with no break-on-damage effect would probably be fine.

Worst case scenario: you get tagged by narc, get an Inc.Miss. warning as soon as they're launched on you, maybe a get hit by a salvo, take cover, then while you wait 45 seconds for it to wear off you tell your team there's a light NARCing and they either hunt it down or cover you with ECM or you wait for now 30 seconds to get back in the fight.

If you've ever solo capped a Conquest base you've just taking yourself out of the fight for 2 - 3 minutes depending if it's enemy capped or neutral. 1 min on NARC isn't that big a deal.

A buffed UAV lasts one minute.

Uh oh a Roadbeer like. I'm doomed.

Edited by Sug, 17 January 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[Sandpit]

I still think 60 seconds would be too long. 2 light mechs with 4 tons of ammo between them could wreak total chaos. It would definitely give a boost to the missile hardpoints on a locust though

[Sandpit]

something like this
LCT-3S

[Tombstoner]

Sandpit, on 17 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I still think 60 seconds would be too long. 2 light mechs with 4 tons of ammo between them could wreak total chaos. It would definitely give a boost to the missile hardpoints on a locust though

What are your thought for 2 ecm lights with tag... basically the same functionality with no ammo restriction. much better range and ease of use let alone trying to narc an ecm light trying to hid during skirmish:die with honor and speed people, dont grief.

As someone who used Narc extensively for a few weeks. it has some definite advantages over tag.
Its fire and forget assuming you hit means you dont need to expose yourself to incoming fire.
The slow speed makes it hard to hit something, if you do the duration is too short for anyone to realize its up.
in the event someone does fire some missiles it falls off way to fast.

To improve narc i would

1- increase projectile speed to 600 2x that of srm's- at the cost of ammo
2- longer duration 2-2.5 minutes, but with a ~50- 60 point damage cap. This is needed for balance. With Tag your at least exposed.
3- range - i would place it somewhere between srm and lrm. so 500-600 meters. shorter then tag but i think tag should be extended to 1000 meters.
4- tag should nullify the ECM protection of the target only. if you want to light up a lance you can at the expense of ammo.
5 - increase ammo to srm levels- however the extended range come at a price in terms of missile size ,also add in the speed increase so 24/ton. you get some decent utility for the tonnage invested vs the TAG.

If we want people to use it vs. TAG and getting people to hit R is hard enough let alone TAG for someone else: outside of 12 man there needs to be some substantial benefit due to its weight. Its can be a lot of fun using narc. its just has very limited utility at the moment. its why i stopped using it.

[Sandpit]

Tombstoner, on 17 January 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

What are your thought for 2 ecm lights with tag... basically the same functionality with no ammo restriction. much better range and ease of use let alone trying to narc an ecm light trying to hid during skirmish:die with honor and speed people, dont grief.

TAG requires constant LoS which is a completely different dynamic. If you're using TAG you must keep yourself exposed for return fire. A mech using NARC can fire it off and hide without fear of return fire. There's a huge difference on how they're used.

[Deathlike]

I wish NARC wasn't relegated to "the first time you piloted a Raven-3L or other stock mechs pre-built with NARC".

Edited by Deathlike, 17 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

I agree with almost every thing the OP wants except the ECM counter. ECM is made to protect against NARC. Take ECM's cloaking field away then you have balance with every thing else.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 17 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I wish NARC wasn't relegated to "the first time you piloted a Raven-3L or other stock mechs pre-built with NARC".

It gets used it's just perceived as nowhere near as useful (and I agree) as most of the other options you can take, especially in a missile slot. The ammo/ton is good I think it just needs some features added to it. A dumb fire and forget ability would greatly enhance it I think. Sending out a radio frequency that negates ECM for that particular mech would be great but even if it didn't do that I think acting like a homing beacon for SRMs (and maybe MRMs later?) would be almost as useful.

[Sug]

Sandpit, on 17 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I still think 60 seconds would be too long. 2 light mechs with 4 tons of ammo between them could wreak total chaos. It would definitely give a boost to the missile hardpoints on a locust though

Trying to think of a scenario in a coordinated 12v12 where NARC wreaks havoc... help me out. As long as it's countered by ECM it really can't get out of control.

Teams that would be wrecked by 2 narcing lights were probably not going to win anyhow.

Edited by Sug, 17 January 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Mawai]

The reason Narc doesn't work is because ECM is broken. ... but that is a topic for another thread.

In theory, ECM was a counter to BAP and NARC. However, due to the choices for ECM implementation in MWO, perhaps it makes more sense for BAP and NARC to be counters to ECM. It would make more sense. However, at the moment LRMs can be very effective when they hit ... especially in large numbers.

NARCing an opponent with a NARC that could not be blocked by ECM might very well make LRMs too powerful in groups. In any case, it would need playtesting and balancing but NARC does need some sort of improvement.

[Sug]

Mawai, on 17 January 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

NARCing an opponent with a NARC that could not be blocked by ECM might very well make LRMs too powerful in groups. In any case, it would need playtesting and balancing but NARC does need some sort of improvement.

Target gets narced, team on coms calls it out, target gets to cover. Your team is now aware there is a mech narcing and it knows where the LRM boats are.

No one calls it out you still probably have 5+ seconds to react after an Incoming Missile warning assuming the LRM boats are not on top of you and are within the effective LRM range of under 600m. If they're at max LRM range, which they wouldn't be, you'd have almost 11 seconds to react. The reaction includes letting your team know there's a mech narcing, and your team would know where the LRM boats are.

If for some reason you get yourself in a position where you're alone, there's no cover, you're too slow to get to cover, and there's no ecm nearby, then you would get killed by LRMs whether you get narced or not.

Just saying.

[Sandpit]

Sug, on 17 January 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Trying to think of a scenario in a coordinated 12v12 where NARC wreaks havoc... help me out. As long as it's countered by ECM it really can't get out of control.

Teams that would be wrecked by 2 narcing lights were probably not going to win anyhow.

2 Ravens with ECM equip NARC and flank the enemy. They manage to get 6 mechs popped with NARC beacons. Those mechs must withdraw from combat and seek cover rendering them "useless" (for lack of a better term) for 60 seconds. That leaves a 10v6 scenario. Those same two Ravens continue to sneak around and pop NARCs onto the same 6 mechs. You get 12 shots/ton so if both mechs carried 2 tons that's 48 rounds. If they only hit 50% of the time that's 24 rounds. That's 4 rounds per mech which comes out to 4 minutes for each mech having to huddle behind cover.

Most matches I've been in (with a few exceptions) but they average approximately 5-7 minutes usually. If 6 half the enemy force is rendered ineffective for 4 minutes that's 75% of the match. Now that's an extreme example but you did ask for a 12man type scenario so I'm going with a min/max type scenario. Granted I'm sure the rest of the team would help and those 2 Ravens wouldn't just nonchalantly run amok and fire off NARC all game long but with a 1 minute timer on it, the NARC COULD effectively render mechs ineffective for half a match.

Most matches also have a snowball effect. Once a team is at a disadvantage of about 3-4 mechs it begins to become what most refer to as a stomp. So even if you only knocked 203 mechs out of the fight for 3-4 minutes and the rest of your team manages to take out 1-2 enemy mechs you're now going into the whole snowball situation.