46 replies to this topic

[Varent]

East Indy, on 02 January 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

That was the case at the height of the alpha meta, but the AC/2 BJ is very effective if it's played for what it is: light fire support. Make sure a target has something bigger to work about, then open fire.

Sadly this would require a very immature player base to accept that not all rolls put up massive damage and get kills but are instead 'supportive' in nature. I play many this way myself. Try convincing the player base they shouldnt be the absolute hero getting all the kills and damage seems to be hard and also tends to lend people towards the "Nerf this nerf that mentality" because they want the easy button instead of stepping back and looking at the game a different way.

[Alistair Winter]

Curccu, on 02 January 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

How about 2x UAC5 to your atlai?
More damage with less heat than AC2s

Also lower DPS and lower range, and my Atlas brings enough ammo to fire at any target that shows its head at any range, throughout the match. I have 2xUAC5 on my Victors, so I don't dislike them. They're brutal, of course.

stjobe, on 02 January 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

Leaving aside the AC balance issue for a while, there's a pretty simple explanation to why lighter ACs are better on heavier 'mechs than on lighter 'mechs: Exposure.

Oh, indeed! I'm well aware of the explanation. It's the only way to take advantage of high DPS weapons on an Atlas. Draw people (or force them) into a brawl. Now, if I'm in a CTF going up against a Jagermech with a quad AC2, I'll happily eat their damage to deliver a few shots to their crunchy side torsos. Against the Atlas, that doesn't work out.

So really, I'm wondering if PGI thought this through or if this is working as intended. AC2 is very difficult to use on the Blackjack, Cicada and Hunchback, while it's actually very good on the biggest mechs.

Joseph Mallan, on 02 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

And since PGI is gimping us big guys and picking Assault Mechs with limited Ballistic hard points, we just cannot get the destruction we want!

Not sure if serious...

xengk, on 01 January 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

I enjoying pling-ing enemy in a YLW too, have mine running an UAC5+AC2 combo.
If you don't have an AC20 and is standing next to a heavier mech, you generally become low priority target, leaving you unmolested to freely rip away enemy components.

Then our experience differs wildly. The people I've been fighting get very annoyed at high ROF ballistics, and they try to deal with the source immediately. Especially when they realize the source is a Centurion with only 32 points of armour protecting those annoying ballistics.

[Joseph Mallan]

Totally serious! I am an old hand at Assaulting, The fact that the DEVs won't let us have big powerful war machines makes me sad.The vehicles that should by right be wielding 2+ AC20 are purposely banned from them. An Assault Mech is supposed to do just that. wade in and wreak havoc and release the hounds of hel.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 January 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Sheraf]

Axeman1, on 02 January 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

Autocannons need a nerf across the board. They are clearly better than missles or energy weapons.

There is no problem with AC, it just that other things were nerfed.

[Varent]

Alistair Winter, on 02 January 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Also lower DPS and lower range, and my Atlas brings enough ammo to fire at any target that shows its head at any range, throughout the match. I have 2xUAC5 on my Victors, so I don't dislike them. They're brutal, of course.


Oh, indeed! I'm well aware of the explanation. It's the only way to take advantage of high DPS weapons on an Atlas. Draw people (or force them) into a brawl. Now, if I'm in a CTF going up against a Jagermech with a quad AC2, I'll happily eat their damage to deliver a few shots to their crunchy side torsos. Against the Atlas, that doesn't work out.

So really, I'm wondering if PGI thought this through or if this is working as intended. AC2 is very difficult to use on the Blackjack, Cicada and Hunchback, while it's actually very good on the biggest mechs.


Not sure if serious...


Then our experience differs wildly. The people I've been fighting get very annoyed at high ROF ballistics, and they try to deal with the source immediately. Especially when they realize the source is a Centurion with only 32 points of armour protecting those annoying ballistics.

Are you properly using cover, waiting for them to be hard engaged and then peaking out?
Are you staying close to another mech and using them as mobile cover?
Are you using your advanced range to try and gain the maximum use of the weapon and making yourself a harder target?

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 January 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Totally serious! I am an old hand at Assaulting, The fact that the DEVs won't let us have big powerful war machines makes me sad.The vehicles that should by right be wielding 2+ AC20 are purposely banned from them. An Assault Mech is supposed to do just that. wade in and wreak havoc and release the hounds of hel.

http://mwomercs.com/...d-its-an-atlas/

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Are you properly using cover, waiting for them to be hard engaged and then peaking out?
Are you staying close to another mech and using them as mobile cover?
Are you using your advanced range to try and gain the maximum use of the weapon and making yourself a harder target?

I've been in the game long enough to know those things, yes. Ultimately, I think the Shadowhawk is far superior to the Centurion as long range fire support. It's far better at peaking over hills, and when you peak around corners, you're more likely to lose your arm than anything else, which doesn't matter if you're playing the Shadowhawk. The advantage of having ballistics in the arm vs the torso is negligible if you're engaging at maximum range. And having weapons in the arm is one of the few advantages the Centurion has over other medium mechs.

[Varent]

Alistair Winter, on 02 January 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...d-its-an-atlas/


I've been in the game long enough to know those things, yes. Ultimately, I think the Shadowhawk is far superior to the Centurion as long range fire support. It's far better at peaking over hills, and when you peak around corners, you're more likely to lose your arm than anything else, which doesn't matter if you're playing the Shadowhawk. The advantage of having ballistics in the arm vs the torso is negligible if you're engaging at maximum range. And having weapons in the arm is one of the few advantages the Centurion has over other medium mechs.

Add me in game, player name Varent.

Im actually curious if your just in a strange elo. Id love to run a lance with you and see if we can get those builds working for ya or how your playing compared to me etc. Might just be strange differences in playstyle or who your normally put up against or run with etc versus who I do.

[oldradagast]

stjobe, on 02 January 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

Leaving aside the AC balance issue for a while, there's a pretty simple explanation to why lighter ACs are better on heavier 'mechs than on lighter 'mechs: Exposure.

In an Atlas you can take some damage and live; in a medium, that's much harder to do, so you want a weapon that leaves you exposed for the least amount of time while still doing massive damage. So you want the AC/20.

A personal anecdote is my experience with Blackjacks; I mastered them half a year ago or so, and I ran them like this:
* BJ-1 with dual AC/2s (also with dual AC/5s but that left precious little tonnage for backup weaponry)
* BJ-1DC with AC/10+ERPPC (also with an AC/20 and a couple of MLs)
* BJ-1X with 2xLL plus a mix of ML+SL (man, did that ever run hot...).

The BJ-1 with AC/2s was horrible to use; as soon as I tried to take a shot my torsos melted away. The BJ-1DC though, was a dream. Fire, twist, fire, twist and the enemy was the one who got melted away - especially with the AC/20 on it.

Coming back to the AC balance discussion then, this is why big ACs are so popular: They allow you the maximum defensive capabilities (cover, twisting) while simultaneously offering maximum offensive capability (all damage to one spot, no matter how short of an exposure you take).

The negatives (weight, slots, ammo, etc) are far outweighed by those two positives alone, and they're not the only positives ACs have - they also have low heat and x3 range to name two more.

Agreed.

I have a pair of nearly identical Shadowhawks, but one runs an AC20 while the other runs 2 AC2's. The AC20 one has performed better noticeably in my stats for the reasons listed above. Even though the DPS is lower, it can get in a hard hit and run vs. focus firing. I'm now trying the AC 2 one with an XL engine but a pair of AC 5's. More up-front punch and less heat, though more fragile... we'll see what happens.

[Murzao]

I run my YLW with 2 AC2s and 11 tons ammo (825 shots). Usually get 500+ damage up to 1k and assist on every mech in the combat area.

It's a little hard trying to dearm a Cent from 800m when he still goes 90+ and plinking your head...and is shield arm strafing the YLW arm bend is rather nice.

I sometimes remove 3 tons ammo to bump engine up to 107 but no big difference when sniping from 800m+.

The only downside is people see me mowing someone down and go in for the killsteal all the time.

[Lykaon]

Axeman1, on 02 January 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

Autocannons need a nerf across the board. They are clearly better than missles or energy weapons.

Concentrated pinpoint damage that is instantly applied to a single armor location is the problem.Autocannons are working fine the issue is the armor mechanics are not.

[stjobe]

Lykaon, on 02 January 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Concentrated pinpoint damage that is instantly applied to a single armor location is the problem.Autocannons are working fine the issue is the armor mechanics are not.

That's a bit of a strange way of looking at it; it would be far simpler to change how autocannons work than to change how the armour mechanics work.

Do you have any proposed solution for a reworking of the armour mechanic that allows autocannons to retain their instantaneous damage?

[LordBraxton]

Murzao, on 02 January 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I run my YLW with 2 AC2s and 11 tons ammo (825 shots). Usually get 500+ damage up to 1k and assist on every mech in the combat area.

It's a little hard trying to dearm a Cent from 800m when he still goes 90+ and plinking your head...and is shield arm strafing the YLW arm bend is rather nice.

I sometimes remove 3 tons ammo to bump engine up to 107 but no big difference when sniping from 800m+.

The only downside is people see me mowing someone down and go in for the killsteal all the time.

I logged in just to post how confused I am

11 tons??!?!?

2 Tons per AC2 is a good minimum, and 3 tons per gun should last you ANY battle

6 Tons of ammo should be plenty, under EVERY circumstance, you are wasting 5 tons man!

[Alistair Winter]

LordBraxton, on 02 January 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I logged in just to post how confused I am
11 tons??!?!?
2 Tons per AC2 is a good minimum, and 3 tons per gun should last you ANY battle
6 Tons of ammo should be plenty, under EVERY circumstance, you are wasting 5 tons man!

Let's do the math. 825 shots... Approximately 410 shots per AC2. It fires every 0.52 seconds. So it takes approximately 200 seconds for the 2xAC2 to fire 800 rounds. That's 3 minutes and 20 seconds of continuous firing, with no overheating.

Unfortunately, each match is 15 minutes. I think he needs.. 33 tons of ammo. Maybe more.

[Varent]

Alistair Winter, on 02 January 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Let's do the math. 825 shots... Approximately 410 shots per AC2. It fires every 0.52 seconds. So it takes approximately 200 seconds for the 2xAC2 to fire 800 rounds. That's 3 minutes and 20 seconds of continuous firing, with no overheating.

Unfortunately, each match is 15 minutes. I think he needs.. 33 tons of ammo. Maybe more.

.... you guys make me smile....

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally....
oh wait this actually isn't ballistics are op against energy weapons? ??????

As long as you have the slots and want to make sacrifices on weight to accommodate them any weapon is viable on every mech
Most of it really just comes down to player preferences.
I love loading up MLs on a Jenner and going to town when I want a good skirmisher
I also love my 4mg locust or my AC20 Shawk or my 3 ac2 assault and heavy builds
The role I want a mech to fill normally has more to do with weapon selection than size of mech

[NRP]

Alistair Winter,
If you like 2 AC/2s on your D-DC, try an AC/2+AC/20 sometime. It's almost the best of both worlds.

[Murzao]

It's built that way because it takes up 100% of the crit slots, you remove some ammo for a DHS you have to bump your engine size because you don't have any critslots available.

I've never actually run out of ammo with that build.......but 1 game vs a superheavy premade I almost did. In fact it is best used against superheavy teams you always end up near 1000 damage as faceplanting multiple Highlanders/Atlas is easymode. And let me tell you they don't appreciate a facefull of neverending AC2 from 800ms lol.

Sure I got 2MLs backup but you can't fire those more than twice without inducing your own heatspike,

[Alistair Winter]

NRP, on 02 January 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Alistair Winter,
If you like 2 AC/2s on your D-DC, try an AC/2+AC/20 sometime. It's almost the best of both worlds.

I'm sure it is. I remember seeing Koreanese run that combo in, what, late 2012? I'll try it out sometime.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, I didn't like using AC/2s with how I played my DDC, an AC/20 and 3xSRM 6 were fine even with spotty hit reg and they gave me time to twist and so on.

Kinda interested in running a BJ with some AC/2s and Advanced Zoom before playing around with other builds.

[Sandpit]

Praetor Shepard, on 02 January 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well, I didn't like using AC/2s with how I played my DDC, an AC/20 and 3xSRM 6 were fine even with spotty hit reg and they gave me time to twist and so on.

Kinda interested in running a BJ with some AC/2s and Advanced Zoom before playing around with other builds.

I do quite well with a tri ac2 bmaster it's like a long ranged mg