9 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Assuming for a moment we don't want Clan weapons by default superior*, just "different" then IS weapons, ideally serving more the idea of Clan warriors being into close combat engagements and getting personal, rather than impersonal sniping at range.

What if we did this:

The IS ER Lasers and ER PPCs get the Clan ER Laser and ER PPC range.
The IS Lasers and PPCs get the IS ER Lasers and PPC range, and the Clan Damage.
The Clan ER Lasers and ER PPC get the IS Laser and PPC range.
For Ultra-Autocannons, LBX and the like we just swap the ranges.

Would this get closer to balancing the Clan and IS weapon technology? Or is it still very far off?

(Of course, this just covers weapons, not DHS and the like)


EDIT:
*)This is strictly about the table top game, not about Mechwarrior Online. That's why I originally posted it there!

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 January 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[Skylarr]

This belongs in the MWO section.

[MustrumRidcully]

Skylarr, on 06 January 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

This belongs in the MWO section.

Niko Snow, on 06 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

As this is discussing the future balance of IS vs Clan Tech in MWO, moving this to Upcoming Features

No, it's not a discussion about MW:O! It was aimed at the table top game, that's why I put it there, dang it!

It's basically a house rule suggestion, and I am asking people familiar with the table top rules in play what the impact would be. Maybe it could also work for M:WO, but I don't want any MW:O idiosyncracies to be considered for the discussion. I want the expertise of table top players.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 January 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

I'm a guess you'd call it former TT player (or at least a 3025 / 3050 eras snob ). DISCLAMER: I've not played in several years, however last year I built a Battletech framework for the RPG Tools/Map tools gaming system. I built it for the 3025 era with bits and pieces to expand it for the invasion era. Doing that forced me to study the various rule books to create accurate macros for all the functions of the game system (including mech melee combat - a nightmare so many situational rules dang it) so although I've not really played TT in a long while, I took a crash course in Battletech TT 101 recently...

I'm assuming a couple of things based off your OP,

#1: your trying to balance units (single mechs) by trying to redefine the actual ability of the tech to the "style" of the faction that employs it (clanners under zellbrigen like short range honorable duels, IS pilots like to snipe at range ect)

#2: your asking about the invasion era (3049-3052) and not one of the later time frames (Operation Bulldog 3060, or Jihad *shudders* ect...)

If 1 is correct there are a bunch of way you can try and house rule a campaign.

One option is to indeed flip the clan/IS equipment ranges (clanners hit harder but at shorter range, IS hit better at range but not nearly so hard) but keep heat generation as is because if your playing 3049 very few IS units will have DHS or any of the Star League core upgrades, so the heat scales are fairly balanced overall, and build your campaign/fight around just that inverted range chart (additional thing to adjust is LRM - clanners have no minimum, keep it that way, or remove LRM entirely from clanners, have them use SRM exclusively, using the idea LRMs are considered dishonorable under zellbrigen)

Just remember another huge advantage the Clan faction has is the quality of the pilots fighting their machines. Short of mandating equal piloting/gunnery ability for both sides, the clan advantage is still a good edge of +1 (well -1) in a 2d6 roll system.

Now my personal experience on this is that the clan force is still OP as long as good OmniMech configurations are taken (think things like the Timberwolf and Warhawk, omnis that carry good engine ratings and near max armor - which under the rules are hard coded in the omnis and should not/can not be changed) However if you force the clanners into some of the shall we say crappyer omnis and setup IS with good rounded IS model mechs the fights can be epic. But setup is key.

[MustrumRidcully]

I found it a bit weird that the Clanners got superior pilots and superior tech. That was really stacking the deck, wasn't it?

But you have the right idea with the timeline - I am realy not familiar with the events and tech beyond the initial Clan Invasion. It probably gets very messy there since both sides get new tech and what not.

An idea for balancing DHS - I considered making some DHS "explosive". (Fluff reasoning: DHS use a special type of coolant that is highly combustive when exposed to oxygen.) If I am just trying to balance IS vs Clan DHS, the damage might be relatively low (3-5 points).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 January 2014 - 11:17 PM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 January 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

I found it a bit weird that the Clanners got superior pilots and superior tech. That was really stacking the deck, wasn't it?

Yes. In terms of the game mechanics the balancing mechanism is numerical. The IS forces have way more units to throw into the breech, and since they are not nearly as picky about how elite their pilots are, they got lots more of them to drive all those extra BattleMechs around. The BV (battle value) system does a fair job at setting up matches that can be well fought, but like seeming any games system devised it can also be abused. Overall IIRC the BV systems of Battletech do a fair job of bridging the diffrences between the 3025, 2750 (Star League) and 3050 clan tech bases, all of which could be found on a single planets battlefields during the Invasion.

Quote

But you have the right idea with the timeline - I am realy not familiar with the events and tech beyond the initial Clan Invasion. It probably gets very messy there since both sides get new tech and what not.

It does because the games creators had a huge problem. The Clans as designed were to small long term to survive against the Great Houses industrial edge (the Fed Coms alone really should have been able to kick the Jade Falcons, Steel Vipers and Wolves completely out of the Inner Sphere. The FedComs had between 235 to 260 front line RCT's in January 3052. The 3 mentioned Clans has between 25 to 30 galaxies of total force in their toumans (and I mean total, it would also include clan homeworld garrisons and supply line garrisons. 3 3025 tech base Federated Commonwealth RCT's will kill a Clan Galaxy. Once those units upgrade to Star League specs 2 will do it. Assuming the FedComs only move and use 2/3 of their military might, the Fed Coms can counter offensive wave the occupation zones at a 5 to 1 advantage.

Now you know why a "truce line" was used to end the invasion.

Quote

An idea for balancing DHS - I considered making some DHS "explosive". (Fluff reasoning: DHS use a special type of coolant that is highly combustive when exposed to oxygen.) If I am just trying to balance IS vs Clan DHS, the damage might be relatively low (3-5 points).

Well the thing I would work out is, which tech base is the IS using, either the 3025, or the 2750.

If its 3025 they don't get DHS as its lostech.

If your going ahead and using Star League spec equipment for the IS, keep the DHS unaltered imho. Only real difference is SL DHS is 3 slots to the Clans 2 slot. If you want to give the IS forces a differing flavor, try allowing them to mount more in the engine for free (both to clear internal space but also weight) say those Wiley Star League engineers figured out how to fit lucky 13 DHS in a fusion engine, and thankfully none of those engineers left with that ol' coot Kerensky...(if you try this for every DHS added to the engine add a energy weapon to the effected mech - medium laser or 2 smalls work real well - to round out the weight)

Another way is splitting up how heat is generated. It would be needlessly complex and time consuming (PGI developers grab a pencil and note paper you'll love this idea) run with 3 heat systems. Heat 1 is off of movement, terrain (how hot is the lava river again?) and ambient temperature. Heat 2 is generated by energy weapons. Heat 3 is generated by ballistic and missile weapons. Then just separate out how/who you want the differing scales to effect, and how their HS technology dissipates that heat.


Personally when I built a clan invasion campaign I built it separately for the years involved. In my setup Comstar was more than happy to watch Hanse Davion smash and bleed his massive armies against the ferrocrete wall of the clans.

3049: IS forces use 3025 legal machines and always enjoy a 3 to 1 tonnage advantage, clan players are forces to adhere to a super strict version of zellbrigen. (and I spelled out a very restrictive zellbrign and bidding procedure for the clan players to follow, with a reward system if they held to it correctly)

3050: IS forces may use no more than 50% 2750 tech as refit upgrades to their 3025 units and get a 2.5 to 1 tonnage advantage, clan players continue to use the zellbrigen & bidding house rules, however the penalties for violating them were greatly reduced.

3051: as per lore conflicts were extremely limited, however IS players could use 2750 teched units exclusively at a 2 to 1 advantage, and clan players only must use the bidding procedures, as zellbrigen no longer applies to IS foes.

3052: IS forces can now equip up to 25% of their units with clan grade weapons and heat sinks (thank you Jamie Wolf) but only get a 1.8 tonnage advantage, clan units no longer hindered by bidding procedures or zellbrigen

3053: IS may equip upto 50% clan weapons and heat sinks, and may use full clan tech base on up to 10% of units (thank you again Jamie Wolf), IS gets a 1.5 to 1 tonnage advantage.

3054: IS may equip up to 75% clan weapons and heatsinks and use full clan tech base on upto 25% of units, IS gets a 1.4 to 1 tonnage advantage.

3055: IS may equip up to 100% clan weapons and heatsinks and use full clan tech base on upto 50% of units, IS gets a 1.3 to 1 tonnage advantage.

3056: IS may equip up to 100% clan weapons and heatsinks and use full clan tech base on upto 75% of units, IS gets a 1.2 to 1 tonnage advantage

3057: both sides use clan tech base exclusively.

(really no reason other than writers block why the Combine and FedComs/Lyrans didn't build clan tech exclusively after then invasion truce started. Jamie Wolf handed the IS the keys to the clan machine shop, and its not like the clans were using anything totally alien to the Battletech universe - they were not beaming there Omni's to planets surfaces after all - so really there was no reason that by 3057 the 3 IS powers involved didn't both understand the technology, building the equipment but also have clan teched militaries)

[Reno Blade]

On one side, the claners were always proud of their skill, but they used superiour tech in 1vs1 duels. Even with bidding down, Medium mechs could easily kill assault IS Tech1 mechs.

On the other side, the IS tech downfall reduced the numbers of available mechs over the 300 years over and over again.
Having a 3:1 number advantage... sounds a bit odd.

Anyway, the Idea to have shorter, stronger and lighter weapons sounds way better than to have weapons that also have longer range.
(in any kind of scenario, from TT to MWO or the books)

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Reno Blade, on 09 January 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

On one side, the claners were always proud of their skill, but they used superiour tech in 1vs1 duels. Even with bidding down, Medium mechs could easily kill assault IS Tech1 mechs.

On the other side, the IS tech downfall reduced the numbers of available mechs over the 300 years over and over again.
Having a 3:1 number advantage... sounds a bit odd.

Anyway, the Idea to have shorter, stronger and lighter weapons sounds way better than to have weapons that also have longer range.
(in any kind of scenario, from TT to MWO or the books)

The 3 to 1 in the first year of the invasion in my house rules campaign was to account for a couple of things.

The gross advantage the OP clan players enjoyed, and to lock in a proper weight disparity, without having to rely on my players properly bidding the battle correctly.

The object was to ensure fun rolling battles that would keep my playing group interested (it was a group of 8 players - plus myself as GM - only 3 of whom had played Battle tech before I showed it to them) and that meant the clan players could not be allowed to auto win by simply bidding high (in a few pre campaign matches showing them the system/universe it was a clear issue, so I squashed it like a bug)

Our campaign lasted 2 years to play out, we played biweekly on Saturdays. I hand drew up large poster sized maps of the areas of the Inner Sphere and Exodus Road and Clan Homeworlds. I also created 20 poster sized maps for battlefields, and we would mix and match 5 of them across an old ping pong table one of the players kept in his garage. Running out of maneuvering room in our battles was not an issue

I came up with national economies, industrial production charts, shipping/cargo data, and logistical supply/resupply information.

In my campaign the 4 invading clans got to the Radstat/Tamar line by early 3051, after the wait for a new ilkahn then a massive push by the FedComs flanked them hard, prompting the arrival of 4 more clans into the Inner Sphere (steel viper/diamond shark/hells horses to lyran, nova cat to combine). The fight raged throughout for a year with the need to bring 6 more clans into Lyran space - Burrock, Diamond Shark, Star Addler, Snow Raven, Ice Hellion, Fire Mandrell (the Jade Falcons , Steel Vipers and Wolves were done - my pseudo Hanse Davion sent 50 Davion RCT and better than 70 merc regiments to support the FRR - what was left of those clans returned to the homeworlds), in the Combine the Bears, Jags, Cats eventually take the Pesht military district, but any losses of industry is offset by resupply from the Free Worlds League, and the Dracons start pushing that line back.

By 3055 every clan had been activated and sent to the slaughter house formerly known as the Inner Sphere, and the massive industrial advantage of the Great Houses was simply to much to swallow.

by 3058 all the clans had been ejected from the IS, and the only thing preventing a IS push against the Exodus Road is Sun-Tzu Liao feeling adventurous, trying to retake what was lost during the 4th succession war.

That campaign ended with the Combine and FRR staring daggers at each other (my combine centric players really wanted Raselhague retaken for the glory of the Coordinator), House Steiner exhausted from the fighting, Davion trying to hold Sun-Tzu's gains to the pre 4th war line, and Marik sending bills to everyone who owed them money (my Marik player was trying to convince me that he really should be given half of House Steiner as payment for the equipment & supplies sent during the Clan War) and the Clans licking their wounds, and ploting a new strategy, next time they would all gang up on the combine straight through, no more Mr nice guy...

[CyclonerM]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 09 January 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

The 3 to 1 in the first year of the invasion in my house rules campaign was to account for a couple of things.

The gross advantage the OP clan players enjoyed, and to lock in a proper weight disparity, without having to rely on my players properly bidding the battle correctly.

The object was to ensure fun rolling battles that would keep my playing group interested (it was a group of 8 players - plus myself as GM - only 3 of whom had played Battle tech before I showed it to them) and that meant the clan players could not be allowed to auto win by simply bidding high (in a few pre campaign matches showing them the system/universe it was a clear issue, so I squashed it like a bug)

Our campaign lasted 2 years to play out, we played biweekly on Saturdays. I hand drew up large poster sized maps of the areas of the Inner Sphere and Exodus Road and Clan Homeworlds. I also created 20 poster sized maps for battlefields, and we would mix and match 5 of them across an old ping pong table one of the players kept in his garage. Running out of


**

awesome telling of an awesome campaign


**

Wow. This slaughtering of Clans gives me chills but i really wish i had a similar group to play it for two years..

p.s. i do not find fully beliavable depriving the realm of 50 RCTs .. I mean, that is like another Tukayyid!

Edited by CyclonerM, 09 January 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

That decision was based off the Outreach conference. My version of Davion once Jamie Wolf showed the deep invasion map and that all 3 government had been hit equally as hard decided the best defense of the Federated Suns was to fight away from the Federated Suns, as such he pledged every unit he could muster or buy, and sent them hurdling into the FRR to maintain that battlefront. He had already sent half of the Federated Suns front line units into House Steiner, but once he saw that map and gained a binding cease fire with House Kurita and a mutual defense pact with Marik he had no reason to leave anything home outside random planetary militias.

House Marik sent a third of its line units to reinforce key worlds in House Kurita, as well as sending units to be neutral peacekeepers on the Kurita/Davion border. Marik also pledged to defend the Fed Coms if House Liao attacked them while clan units remained in Kurita space, in exchange Steiner agreed to return Marik worlds lost to Steiner during the 3rd and 4th succession wars by 3075. (In my setup House Marik was much more involved in defending its Kapteyn Accords ally, and by doing so would allow its military to have first hand knowledge of the clans if it came down to defending Marik holdings against them)

That Kurita space requirement is what I used to launch House Liao's invasion of the Federated Commonwealth in 3058, the Fed Coms were still dealing with the Clans Coalition (at that point down to elements of 4 Clans and about 20 worlds) in House Steiner, when Sun Tzu struck, the day after Clan Nova Cat surrendered its last world in the Draconis Combine ironically to a unit from the Capellan Confederation. (who also started assisting their Kapteyn Accords ally once the hard push was successful, wiley Capellans...)