We can make walking Mechs but we can't come up with solutions to your complaints.
Funny how every one has a idea on how a simulator should work when we do not even have the equipment we are simulating made.
Can not really simulate something that does not exist.
1
Recoil, Deflection, and slow reticles
Started by deckard, Oct 31 2011 04:42 PM
25 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 02:34 AM
Youngblood, on 31 October 2011 - 07:54 PM, said:
, it really deserves to be called something like "fusionpunk", or the future of the 1980s, just like "steampunk" is the future of the 1800s.
I saw this and was about to write something in my mildly incensed haze when i saw this:
buck rogers, on 31 October 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:
The Battletech universe is in fact cyberpunk 
. A mech mounted machine gun weighs .5 tons, a 20mm cannon weighs as much as a big rig, and you have to close to spitting distance to land laser beam shots.
The rules governing mech combat take themselves very seriously.
But the universe itself does not. One of the great mech designers in-universe is Dr. B. Banzai, as in, 'Buckaroo Banzai Across The 8th Dimension'. Theres a planet named after manga artist Rumiko Takahashi. There are probably hundreds of references to stuff the original writers were fans of.
Masked men in sneak suits with vibroblades prowl the night. Men with goggles, mohawks, and cybernetic arms haunt the bars.
Definition cyberpunk
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---Buck.
. A mech mounted machine gun weighs .5 tons, a 20mm cannon weighs as much as a big rig, and you have to close to spitting distance to land laser beam shots.The rules governing mech combat take themselves very seriously.
But the universe itself does not. One of the great mech designers in-universe is Dr. B. Banzai, as in, 'Buckaroo Banzai Across The 8th Dimension'. Theres a planet named after manga artist Rumiko Takahashi. There are probably hundreds of references to stuff the original writers were fans of.
Masked men in sneak suits with vibroblades prowl the night. Men with goggles, mohawks, and cybernetic arms haunt the bars.
Definition cyberpunk
.---Buck.
...And all is well with the world. I mean, where, Youngblood, do you think Steampunk derived it's name from? You need to get you some Gibson, Sterling or Rucker on your bookshelf. I cannot recommend them enough.
I can't help it. I am, sadly a bit of a cyberpunk. the warring factions, espionage, the heady mixture of man and machine...if they were to do a Neuromancer game I would never actually leave the house; MWO is going to be bad enough....
'pologies for going a tad OT there.
#23
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:58 AM
In terms of weapon accuracy, a modern tank can fire accurately on the move because it is an extremely stable firing platform. The gyros don't have to deal with a large amount of deflection as the vehicle moves at all.
A 'mech, even walking slowly, bobs up and down and sways between left and right as it moves. In fact, such are the dynamic stability issues that moving very slowly will actually require variations in the inclination of the torso, some of them quite drastic, just in order to stay upright.
On top of that, the elbow joints will deflect slightly with each downward step, bobbing up and down at the apogee and perigee of the mech's motion as the forces on the servos change, and will swing slightly from side to side to help keep the 'mech's balance as it walks: the vast increase in versatility given by their being mounted on such flexible platforms will come at the expense of heavily reduced weapon stability.
What does this mean? Torso weapons will be harder to aim, but more stable. Arm weapons won't always point where they're supposed to, and their deflection from the target will vary according to what part of the step you are executing at the time as you walk or run forward. Weapon mountings won't be perfect, and calibrating everything to fire at the exact right spot will be nigh impossible for a 'mech frame that is expected to undergo combat stresses on a regular basis.
The upshot of this is that weapons mounted on different hardpoints will not all be pointed in the exact same direction, even with the targeting computer doing its level best to provide accurate convergence. The best possible solution, in my opinion, is thus to have the different weapons consistently aim at different deflections, and have the deflection vary as you walk or run according to a set pattern. With an advanced computer, or a skilled pilot, you may be able to introduce a visual indication on the screen of where each shot is likely to land, but you shouldn't be able to change the deflections much as they are a primary balancing mechanism.
The real key point here, particularly regarding alpha strikes, is that no alpha strike outside a very narrow range band (I would say between about 20 and 40 metres away from the 'mech) will ever be able to strike the same critical location on an enemy 'mech with more than about 25-50% of its weaponry. At very long ranges, weapons would have to be individually aimed in sequence, making the kind of pinpoint accuracy with everything seen in earlier MechWarrior games extremely unlikely while still playing to skill over luck and not introducing irritating WoT-style randomisation.
The key problem with that, of course, is that it would probably be fairly tricky to code.
A 'mech, even walking slowly, bobs up and down and sways between left and right as it moves. In fact, such are the dynamic stability issues that moving very slowly will actually require variations in the inclination of the torso, some of them quite drastic, just in order to stay upright.
On top of that, the elbow joints will deflect slightly with each downward step, bobbing up and down at the apogee and perigee of the mech's motion as the forces on the servos change, and will swing slightly from side to side to help keep the 'mech's balance as it walks: the vast increase in versatility given by their being mounted on such flexible platforms will come at the expense of heavily reduced weapon stability.
What does this mean? Torso weapons will be harder to aim, but more stable. Arm weapons won't always point where they're supposed to, and their deflection from the target will vary according to what part of the step you are executing at the time as you walk or run forward. Weapon mountings won't be perfect, and calibrating everything to fire at the exact right spot will be nigh impossible for a 'mech frame that is expected to undergo combat stresses on a regular basis.
The upshot of this is that weapons mounted on different hardpoints will not all be pointed in the exact same direction, even with the targeting computer doing its level best to provide accurate convergence. The best possible solution, in my opinion, is thus to have the different weapons consistently aim at different deflections, and have the deflection vary as you walk or run according to a set pattern. With an advanced computer, or a skilled pilot, you may be able to introduce a visual indication on the screen of where each shot is likely to land, but you shouldn't be able to change the deflections much as they are a primary balancing mechanism.
The real key point here, particularly regarding alpha strikes, is that no alpha strike outside a very narrow range band (I would say between about 20 and 40 metres away from the 'mech) will ever be able to strike the same critical location on an enemy 'mech with more than about 25-50% of its weaponry. At very long ranges, weapons would have to be individually aimed in sequence, making the kind of pinpoint accuracy with everything seen in earlier MechWarrior games extremely unlikely while still playing to skill over luck and not introducing irritating WoT-style randomisation.
The key problem with that, of course, is that it would probably be fairly tricky to code.
#24
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 04:47 AM
Amro_One, on 14 November 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:
We can make walking Mechs but we can't come up with solutions to your complaints.
Funny how every one has a idea on how a simulator should work when we do not even have the equipment we are simulating made.
Can not really simulate something that does not exist.
Funny how every one has a idea on how a simulator should work when we do not even have the equipment we are simulating made.
Can not really simulate something that does not exist.
Um, we simulate 'something that doesn't exist' all the time.
How accurate those simulations are is a different matter entirely...
#25
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Posted 15 November 2011 - 10:46 AM
Mchawkeye, on 15 November 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:
I saw this and was about to write something in my mildly incensed haze when i saw this:
...And all is well with the world. I mean, where, Youngblood, do you think Steampunk derived it's name from? You need to get you some Gibson, Sterling or Rucker on your bookshelf. I cannot recommend them enough.
I can't help it. I am, sadly a bit of a cyberpunk. the warring factions, espionage, the heady mixture of man and machine...if they were to do a Neuromancer game I would never actually leave the house; MWO is going to be bad enough....
'pologies for going a tad OT there.
Yeah, that. That's what I meant. Apologies for not being a very well-read individual, but I believe I did make my point about how modern real-world warfare is not a part of this game. We kind of dispensed away with that when the GIANT ROBOTS came in.
#26
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- LocationLost
Posted 15 November 2011 - 11:34 AM
I think the term "mechpunk" is more appropriate. I really like the multiple reticule idea - don't need to be semi circles just let them all overlap when their all on target ie right ahead of the torso. It's why you mount weapons in the more fragile arms, so that they can bear on targets away from the torso. Torso mounted weapns should not have massive mobility to point at all angles. Shoulder mounted missiles should also have limits to their movement. Very few mechs have true turret mounted weapons like the AC5 on the Marauder.
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