479 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

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The point is, if pinpoint damage is too strong now, imagine how its going to be when clan tech is added. PGI is going to have to completely nerf clan tech into the ground unless they come up with a way to fix their poor convergence mechanics.

It's going to be the former. We all know it from experience by this point.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Theyre not all in one basket, theres one UAC in each torso and one UAC in each arm. So it would have some weird convergence, but its basically like fusing two UAC/5 Ilyas into a single mech, then doping it with steroids, and having it smoke crystal meth.

The point is, if pinpoint damage is too strong now, imagine how its going to be when clan tech is added. PGI is going to have to completely nerf clan tech into the ground unless they come up with a way to fix their poor convergence mechanics.

I meant all one system type. As Jayne Cobb once said, "[color=#333333]I just get excitable as to choice- like to have my options open."[/color]

[Critical Rocket]

Peiper, on 07 January 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

It's actually not an issue of which weapons are better or worse, though it has become that. The true problem has been with us since the beginning: Hard Point SIZE restrictions. The biggest, baddest weapons in the game only existed on certain mechs, or were highly specialized mechs (like the Hunchback). Since we can frankenmech everything, it's caused major balance headaches since the beginning. For example: the 3 PPC Awesome may be fat, but if you want to boat more than two PPC's, you'd have to take it - and it would be a blast, for all it's other drawbacks. But because so many other mechs can do the same thing, why take the flawed, fat, slow Awesome? Why take a single hunch Hunchback when you can take a double non-hunch K2 or Jagger? When the Annihilator has only a 35kph top speed, it doesn't seem so scary or broken, right? Well, if you brought in the Annihilator now, you'd have a quad AC/5ultra monster! It would move much faster, be totally armored, etc... If you restricted the hardpoint size to only LARGE weapons, the Annihilator would be stuck with it's giant guns and small engine...

Tweaking mechs in the mechlab is cool, but frankenmechs are for Solaris VII, not regular military or shoestring budget merc groups. Standardization is the key to all large militaries.

Okay, going back to my island...

Totally agree with everything you said there Peiper. It would be cool to see tournaments run where 12 man teams only use the default builds of each mech and use them that way to see how the frankenmech situation has completely blown Battletech lore away in a bad way. Hardpoint size restrictions would prevent completely ridiculous builds from popping up like the AC40 jager for instance.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Thats what I said Kho. I might miss 2 outta 6 shots! I won't argue with your assessment of damage Kho, I just happen to enjoy doing that up front damage. I would be fine if it was a but less convergent, but I love my BFH, and you will have a fight for your life taking it away from me!


True but I am doing about 60-80 percent damage with them and I am happy with that. I could use to practice a bit more with 'em But that's just my point, one mans POS is another mans good choice.

I'm open to compromise, and I think making AC20s do two 10-damage hits in their cooldown would still give you your thump without the issue we currently have. Autocannons across the board need a normalization, though. Once they are normalized, and no longer ALL do ~20dps, and the range is fixed, I don't think I would even have a problem with a 20-point shell like it currently has as long as there was some sort of "quirk" like the Gauss has.

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Theyre not all in one basket, theres one UAC in each torso and one UAC in each arm. So it would have some weird convergence, but its basically like fusing two UAC/5 Ilyas into a single mech, then doping it with steroids, and having it smoke crystal meth.

The point is, if pinpoint damage is too strong now, imagine how its going to be when clan tech is added. PGI is going to have to completely nerf clan tech into the ground unless they come up with a way to fix their poor convergence mechanics.

They are going to be much tamer than in TT, that is assured, I'm just hoping they don't make them actually INferior to IS weapons...

[Joseph Mallan]

Sir I am afraid you don't understand what my Thump is! An AC20 does 20 damage to one location. That is a good start to me! 2 AC20 should put 2 20 point thumps on you, with a chance that I put it on one location is much better to me! If I wanted a weapon that spread damage I'd use LRMs more!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 January 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Varent]

no idea on the rest but I do have suggestions on the larger end uac.

Make ghost heat count for the additional shots you get with them. Sure there is a chance you can feel like a god with a quick burst but you also may overheat like crazy for it and need a long time to cool down.

Increase the Jam chance on the larger uac. Probly not popular with some, but I think it would make the weapons a nice risk reward style. Sure you could have a massive punch but you could also jam on the first try and do nothing.

Lower there durability. A weapon that is already complicated and jams probly isnt very durable. Make it so it takes very little damage to take it out once its exposed.

Limit the amount of uac that can be mounted on a chasis, or limit the type of weapons. You could easily say the clan systems are very specialized for targeting and also due to there 'waist not want not' attitude they focus on using whats available and ration out certain items for military use. Perhaps only allow 2 of any one item or some such? I dont know this idea is a reach but its a thought. Unsure.

Could also limit ammo. Though im hoping this will have more play in CW anyways.. so well see...

Im against changes to aiming with them since the shooter environment would suffer from this.

[Joseph Mallan]

ghost heat is stupid. Applying it to UACs is just not a good path.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

ghost heat is stupid. Applying it to UACs is just not a good path.

as much as people hate it it prevents alot of stupid builds. and it would be an effective way of moderating them.

[Khobai]

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as much as people hate it it prevents alot of stupid builds. and it would be an effective way of moderating them.

damage spread accomplishes the same thing, in a way thats intuitive and actually makes sense.


ghost heat = forces you to fire weapons seperately, artificially spreading damage and limiting pinpoint, but does so by being excessively punitive.

damage spread = lets you fire whatever combinations of weapons you want, still artificially spreads damage and limits pinpoint, and its not excessively punitive (i.e. firing 6 ppcs wont generate over 160 heat).


Ghost heat makes absolutely no sense and completely violates the laws of thermodynamics by creating energy from nothing. PGI's mechs are apparently powered by ghost heat reactors that work by firing more PPCs than the limit to generate unlimited amounts of energy. Who needs fusion? pshh.

Edited by Khobai, 15 January 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

damage spread accomplishes the same thing, in a way thats intuitive and actually makes sense.

Not really. actually it wouldnt make any different at all with uac. Most people use them for the dakka not the precision. The Ilya for example with how no changes whatsoever. Ramp that up to uac10 on a larger chasis and they would do the same think and just eat through you. Spread would have no effect on that whatsoever.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

as much as people hate it it prevents alot of stupid builds. and it would be an effective way of moderating them.

It also messes up some standard builds that had worked fine for decades! Awesome

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

It also messes up some standard builds that had worked fine for decades! Awesome

Hate to break it to ya murphy but its not TT. Alot of builds just dont translate well regardless but still can be used in different roles. Shoting games dont translate well from board games with random hit locations. This is what we have and its a different beast. Live it learn it love it.

[Khobai]

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Not really. actually it wouldnt make any different at all with uac.

Most people agree current UAC mechanics are terrible. UACs need a complete overhaul. They should work like MWLL where they burst fire but also have an overheat bar while firing... that limits how much dps they can do.

An AC/5 doesnt have to do 5 damage per shot. No other mechwarrior game follows that convention. So why does MWO have to?

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Hate to break it to ya murphy but its not TT.

Exactly. So why are we using armor values from TT? or damage values from TT? or anything else from TT for that matter? MWO is its own game... it should be balanced based on its own merits. Importing values from tabletop instead of using their own values is one of the biggest mistakes PGI made.

As long as MWO uses tabletop values it needs to be subject to the same limitations as tabletop or balance breaks down. Pinpoint damage is a perfect example of this... you cant allow accurate and precise aiming when youre using armor ratios imported from a game that has random hit locations.

But since were already stuck with the armor/damage value we have... a bandaid which spreads damage around a bit more is about the best we can hope for at this point.

Edited by Khobai, 15 January 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Amsro]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Hate to break it to ya murphy but its not TT. Alot of builds just dont translate well regardless but still can be used in different roles. Shoting games dont translate well from board games with random hit locations. This is what we have and its a different beast. Live it learn it love it.

This isn't about TT. There is no sane argument for Ghost Heat, it hasn't changed anything.

Everyone was fooled into thinking it did something when SRM's were "buffed" to 2.0 the same day. Co-incidence!? I think not. Now ER/PPC are 10/15 heat. Boating them now is foolish regardless of Ghost Heat.

The only thing Ghost Heat has done is ruin a whole **** ton of new players experience when building mechs because "Ghost Heat" isn't documented in the game ANYWHERE.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Most people agree current UAC mechanics are terrible. UACs need a complete overhaul. They should work like MWLL where they burst fire but also have an overheat bar while firing... that limits how much dps they can do.

An AC/5 doesnt have to do 5 damage per shot. No other mechwarrior game follows that convention. So why does MWO have to?

I wouldnt say most players agree on that at all. In fact the uac posts and complaints are usually iffy at best. Most skilled players who use uac love themand use them to great effect. Ive been using them since they came out and although I didnt like them at first, once I spent alot of time with them I learned to enjoy them. My ilya was one of my favorite builds with three of them for a long time till I fell in love with srm. That said I still use uac on alot of my mechs. I also still see them used across the board on lots of mechs in general. Often times to great effect and high numbers.

Amsro, on 15 January 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

The only thing Ghost Heat has done is ruin a whole **** ton of new players experience when building mechs because "Ghost Heat" isn't documented in the game ANYWHERE.

This isnt TT. Stop using TT examples. It doesnt matter if its not documented in the game anywhere. The game needed a mechanic to stop the boating. It got one. A heat overall wouldnt change that. This was the effective way to do it.

My game experience has increased and gotten alot more pleasant since ghost heat. I was quite tired of seeing the 4 ppc stalkers for one and the three ppc jump snipers. This also prevents many other mechs from being able to do 4 ppc builds. If this wasnt implimented you would actually see even more jump snipers across the board and massive laser boats that were flooding these same balance channels with complaints.

[Khobai]

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Most skilled players who use uac love themand use them to great effect.

Not according to forum polls. Around 85% of players on the forums hate the current UAC mechanics.

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This isnt TT.

Thats the whole problem. Its not TT. But it uses numbers from TT. There is no logic behind that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Hate to break it to ya murphy but its not TT. Alot of builds just dont translate well regardless but still can be used in different roles. Shoting games dont translate well from board games with random hit locations. This is what we have and its a different beast. Live it learn it love it.

True but the Awesome was ruined before Ghost Heat, but to keep saying this isn't TT is just weak sauce! You may notice that I don't ask for Nerfs and all my Mechs work perfectly well within the ghost heat stupidity. So forget live and learn. its lead, follow or get out of my way!

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Not according to forum polls. Around 85% of players on the forums hate the current UAC mechanics.

link?

platform?

basis?

This statement is lacking depth good sir. When for one every uac thread onthe balance forum has been back and forth. Most complaints that are offered are also based off of people just hating that it jams even when its recognized that it still can do amazing things. Let alone the fact that a very small percentage of mwo players actually even post at all or vote. And keep in mind the vast majority of people that post on these forums mainly just spew rage and hate and generally just hate things because 'they' cant use it.

If pgi were to take half or more of the posters seriously they would have to impliment auto aim to make some happy.

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Not according to forum polls. Around 85% of players on the forums hate the current UAC mechanics.



Thats the whole problem. Its not TT. But it uses numbers from TT. There is no logic behind that.

Link?

Platform?

Basis?

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

True but the Awesome was ruined before Ghost Heat, but to keep saying this isn't TT is just weak sauce! You may notice that I don't ask for Nerfs and all my Mechs work perfectly well within the ghost heat stupidity. So forget live and learn. its lead, follow or get out of my way!

Sadly the awesome will probly continue to be ruined until CW. But they could easily reduce heat on it or perhaps cut back the ghost heat on it to make it more useable.

Sidenote, That is a leadership quote and has nothing to do with balance or accepting facts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 15 January 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

link?

platform?

basis?

This statement is lacking depth good sir. When for one every uac thread onthe balance forum has been back and forth. Most complaints that are offered are also based off of people just hating that it jams even when its recognized that it still can do amazing things. Let alone the fact that a very small percentage of mwo players actually even post at all or vote. And keep in mind the vast majority of people that post on these forums mainly just spew rage and hate and generally just hate things because 'they' cant use it.

If pgi were to take half or more of the posters seriously they would have to impliment auto aim to make some happy.



Link?

Platform?

Basis?

I have yet to see it do "Amazing things" And it does Jam way to much. I am not supportive f the easy mode"ready to jam" indicator bar, or much of anything else. he weapon does not perform within acceptable parameters for me. an 0.09 damage increase over a standard AC5 is not Amazing in the least!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 January 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I have yet to see it do "Amazing things" And it does Jam way to much. I am not supportive f the easy mode"ready to jam" indicator bar, or much of anything else. he weapon does not perform within acceptable parameters for me.

I have the vast majority of my 1000+ damage games whie using them.