24 replies to this topic

[Ryan the Lion]

I posted this and I guess it got removed. I was wondering what people thought about each point on the mech having it's own aim point. Left Arm, Right Arm, Left torso and so on. Each would have it's own cross air. That would remove everything from hitting one point on your opponent and PGI would not have to keep on weakening weapons. You fire the ac 20 in the left torso then correct to fire lasers on you left arm. Just thinking out loud.

[Varent]

it was removed because its not a new thread. the moderators suggeste doing a topic search before posting.

[Roland]

There have been many ideas suggested for convergence over the past two years, including yours.

Instead, we got Ghost Heat.

[krash27]

Roland, on 10 January 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

There have been many ideas suggested for convergence over the past two years, including yours.

Instead, we got Ghost Heat.

Thats because to many "elite players" fought against losing their pin point alphas so we got ghost heat instead.

Edited by krash27, 10 January 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Sandpit]

I'm glad someone finally got the nerve to post about this

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 10 January 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

There have been many ideas suggested for convergence over the past two years, including yours.

Instead, we got Ghost Heat.

That and Paul has basically said they are already having an impossible time dealing with hit registration, and their HSR fixes are barely handling what we have now. So adding any kind of convergence system won't work.

Basically they picked a terrible engine to use for this game and we are all paying the prices...literally and figuratively.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 10 January 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[FupDup]

krash27, on 10 January 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Thats because to many "elite players" fought against losing their pin point alphas so we got ghost heat instead.

Actually I'd say the most of the stubbornness regarding convergence comes from PGI's end (for assorted technical and financial reasons...).

If you think about it, most of the non-random convergence solutions actually increase the skill floor drastically. They make the gap between new and experienced players even larger due to the increased difficulty of landing consecutive shots into a single area (whereas right now it's just one well-aimed click).

[krash27]

FupDup, on 10 January 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Actually I'd say the most of the stubbornness regarding convergence comes from PGI's end (for assorted technical and financial reasons...).

If you think about it, most of the non-random convergence solutions actually increase the skill floor drastically. They make the gap between new and experienced players even larger due to the increased difficulty of landing consecutive shots into a single area (whereas right now it's just one well-aimed click).

Thats exactly what I mean, nobody wants anything random like you would have in the real world or like in other FPS games that have recticle bloom. People are fighting to keep that pinpoint alpha dmg crying about random mechanics.

I can well imagine that any other mechanic would be insanely difficult to implement, further setting up PGI to be bashed, trashed and slandered by the community.
Personaly, with as much hate and verbal abuse PGI has had to endure from this community it is a wonder they don't just give up.

Edited by krash27, 10 January 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you think about it, most of the non-random convergence solutions actually increase the skill floor drastically.

Yes and no. Part of good game balance is also balancing for skill. There should be weapons that are easy to use for new players, but arnt necessarily the best weapons. There should also be weapons that are more difficult to use for experienced players, and those should be the best weapons in the game.

Autocannons are the one of the easiest weapons to use, while also being one of the best weapons, and that combination just shouldnt exist.

Conversely, Gauss is one of the hardest weapons to use, while being mediocre at best; another combination that doesnt quite make sense.

Edited by Khobai, 10 January 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[FupDup]

krash27, on 10 January 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Thats exactly what I mean, nobody wants anything random like you would have in the real world or like in other FPS games that have recticle bloom. People are fighting to keep that pinpoint alpha dmg crying about random mechanics.

The thing is, not all convergence solutions include "random" elements. In fact, most of them specifically avoid random factors. I've only seen like a handful of people like Pht or Bishop Steiner suggest RNG elements; nearly all of the others (i.e. Homeless Bill, Doc Bach, etc.) use predictable conditions to control your accuracy and weapons merely fire parallel if you lose convergence for whatever reason (be it heat, firing too much stuff, etc.).

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Sybreed]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 January 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

That and Paul has basically said they are already having an impossible time dealing with hit registration, and their HSR fixes are barely handling what we have now. So adding any kind of convergence system won't work.

Basically they picked a terrible engine to use for this game and we are all paying the prices...literally and figuratively.

that and they went server authoritative, which means the servers can't handle all the info coming from the game. If it was player authoritative, I'm guessing the issue would be solved (from the best of my knowledge), but hacking and such would skyrocket.

Edited by Sybreed, 10 January 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Would arms with actuators still be able to converge? What is the point of fully functioning arms if they can't converge?

[krash27]

FupDup, on 10 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

The thing is, not all convergence solutions include "random" elements. In fact, most of them specifically avoid random factors. I've only seen like a handful of people like Pht or Bishop Steiner suggest RNG elements; nearly all of the others (i.e. Homeless Bill, Doc Bach, etc.) use predictable conditions to control your accuracy and weapons merely fire parallel if you lose convergence for whatever reason (be it heat, firing too much stuff, etc.).

Some great ideas to be sure, but what seems simple to us in game might have complicated coding and dependancy issues inside the game.

P.S.
There were an aweful lot of people dead against any change from pinpoint convergence in any way, just saying.

Sybreed, on 10 January 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

that and they went server authoritative, which means the servers can't handle all the info coming from the game. If it was player authoritative, I'm guessing the issue would be solved (from the best of my knowledge), but hacking and such would skyrocket.

Fixed that for you

Roughneck45, on 10 January 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

Would arms with actuators still be able to converge? What is the point of fully functioning arms if they can't converge?

The answer to this is in the lore. Yes I said lore, before you TT haters jump on me, remember, without the lore it isn't mechwarrior, it is just Stompy Robot Online.
The lore for the most part needs to be in the game, TT combat values however should be changed, even scrapped if needed.

Edited by krash27, 10 January 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[FupDup]

krash27, on 10 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Some great ideas to be sure, but what seems simple to us in game might have complicated coding and dependancy issues inside the game.

So far the main coding hurdle (as acknowledged by PGI) is probably HSR/hit registration, due to the rift between what is happening on the server side and what is happening on the client side. Although, they could potentially just switch to client-side hit detection and use anti-cheat software to detect haxors...

krash27, on 10 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

P.S.
There were an aweful lot of people dead against any change from pinpoint convergence in any way, just saying.

Personally I can only remember like 5 or 6 distinctive forum faces that don't want any kind of conv. changes (of course, I'm not omnipresent so there are naturally many that I haven't met).

[krash27]

FupDup, on 10 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Personally I can only remember like 5 or 6 distinctive forum faces that don't want any kind of conv. changes (of course, I'm not omnipresent so there are naturally many that I haven't met).

Well I suppose the term "a lot" is subjective and in this case opinion based.
Thanks for keeping me to the facts bud.

[Sybreed]

the problem with "no convergence" is that some trolls think it automatically means "RNG". If you do a poll, I'm sure you'd get a result close to 50/50, and most of the naysayers would be people saying "I WANT MY SHOTS TO GO WHERE I TELL THEM TO".

Funny how all other FPS can go without perfect convergence just fine though. I guess some players don't have much confidence in their l33t skillz?

[Khobai]

Getting rid of convergence is a bit extreme anyway. PGI's already got enough things to worry about without having to completely redo the entire way weapons work.

Honestly Id be happy if PGI just did two things:
1) increase internal structure
2) make autocannons burst fire, make ppcs do splash damage

Both are super easy fixes.

[Sybreed]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Getting rid of convergence is a bit extreme anyway. PGI's already got enough things to worry about without having to completely redo the entire way weapons work.

Honestly Id be happy if PGI just did two things:
1) increase internal structure
2) make autocannons burst fire, make ppcs do splash damage

Both are super easy fixes.

I guess that would do. I still think perfect convergence is the #1 problem of MWO.

That, and hardpoints making boating omnipresent.

And the messed up heat system.

[Ryan the Lion]

I am sure the tech would exist to make the arms converge like someone was saying, but it would be impossible to make the torso's converge with the arms. Maybe just add torso reticules. I do like the splash damage idea for PPCs. That would go along way. I am only bringing this up because the more it's brought up and talked about maybe a dev will read it. Whos knows. As for duplicate posts, that's pretty stupid. You should not have to dig up an old post to bring up a topic again. Maybe someone may want to talk about that topic in a different light. Thanks for discussing.

[krash27]

Ryan the Lion, on 10 January 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

I am sure the tech would exist to make the arms converge like someone was saying, but it would be impossible to make the torso's converge with the arms. Maybe just add torso reticules. I do like the splash damage idea for PPCs. That would go along way. I am only bringing this up because the more it's brought up and talked about maybe a dev will read it. Whos knows. As for duplicate posts, that's pretty stupid. You should not have to dig up an old post to bring up a topic again. Maybe someone may want to talk about that topic in a different light. Thanks for discussing.

Well basicly the tech for pinpoint targeting like that had been lost due to centuries of war. If you pay attention to the lore it explains why aiming was difficult and in no way pin point.

Sybreed, on 10 January 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

the problem with "no convergence" is that some trolls think it automatically means "RNG". If you do a poll, I'm sure you'd get a result close to 50/50, and most of the naysayers would be people saying "I WANT MY SHOTS TO GO WHERE I TELL THEM TO".

Funny how all other FPS can go without perfect convergence just fine though. I guess some players don't have much confidence in their l33t skillz?

The thing is, the shots are not going to where the person is aiming, the game is converging their shots for them, a computer calculating convergence does not equal skill.