16 replies to this topic

[Seaglider]

Hi all,

I am a pretty new player to MWO and enjoying the game alot.
But on the forums I find alot of posts that show dissapointment and are even cynical towards the progress this game makes.

This is ofcourse worrying to someone that just started a "new" game.
But what suprised me the most is that the cynisism is based on lack of promised deliveries of CGI that keep coming as a shock to the player base.

Now perhaps I am not experienced in game development but as a project manager by occupation I would say that any delivery not met at the deadline should not come as a surprise since it was already communicated long time before with possibly even reasoning and consequences.
(Personally I bite the heads off of projectmembers if they suprise me or come with unfounded statings)

Now that there is a new set deadline in place for coming february for a big patch which I believe is a chance for a new way of working.

I would advise devs to give regular progress reports and even expectations of what is going to be finished in time or not.
As I would imagine every patch is a project in itself there should be daily/weekly progress reports available which in turn can be (after some screening) communicated to the community.

TL;DR

Why not communicate this like the project it is, with regular (weekly?) progress reports and if deadlines are still expected to be met.

No surprises and no mass flames.

Proper projectmanagament is the solution to everything.

[RedDragon]

Seaglider, on 08 January 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

Why not communicate this like the project it is, with regular (weekly?) progress reports and if deadlines are still expected to be met.

Well, they'd have to actually have some kind of project management first, which by now I'm not really sure they do...

[Darius Deadeye]

Seaglider, on 08 January 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

Stuff about Project Management

I've been in your position as well on multiple occasions, but my question to you is this;

To what extent do you involve the public in the process of unfinished projects? Probably a few disclosure agreements in place?

To whom do you report daily, bi-daily or weekly progress - your senior managers or the end-user?

Project development and management in the traditionel sense is very different from managing what should supposedly be an open-development process of a game, mainly due to all the technical details involved in creating even simple software.

[Crann]

Sorry OP, as I'm sure your experiences mirror traditional methods, unfortunately your experiences <> PGI's mammoth of a project. Game dev just isn't the same..

[Ahja]

Well poster the game should be fun for you and the learning curve challenging but soon you will wondering what they are doing with the game. When you clue into that it will get old fast sadly. So have fun.

[Vaan]

Well.. If you really believe in them...

[Davers]

@OP

As a project manager, do you set deadlines and make promises to your customers that you know will not be kept? Like promising Community Warfare 90 days after open beta while knowing full well that no one is working on it, and in fact the design for it hadn't even been done? That is what makes the players cynical.

[Kanatta Jing]

Davers, on 08 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

@OP

As a project manager, do you set deadlines and make promises to your customers that you know will not be kept? Like promising Community Warfare 90 days after open beta while knowing full well that no one is working on it, and in fact the design for it hadn't even been done? That is what makes the players cynical.

Suppose briefly that they had thought that they could and did indeed try to complete the first version of CW in the first 90 days.

Suppose they wasted a couple months and upwards of a 100 grand writing dead code for Community Warfare UI 1.5 edition.

Would that make you happy?

[Davers]

Kanatta Jing, on 08 January 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

Suppose briefly that they had thought that they could and did indeed try to complete the first version of CW in the first 90 days.

Suppose they wasted a couple months and upwards of a 100 grand writing dead code for Community Warfare UI 1.5 edition.

Would that make you happy?

If they had kept us up to date that all that had happened, yes. But they didn't. We don't know why nothing was done on CW.

[XX Sulla XX]

Best bet is to stay away from the forums and have fun playing the games

[Lupin]

Sadly PGI/DEVs stopped listing sometime ago, and have shown time and time again they do not have ANY communication skills (This web site good example New mechs & Game mode missing).
I can not blame them any post by PGI/DEVs on forums these days is target. But this is a problem of there making.

Bottom line is I do not trust them anymore.

[Sandpit]

+1 to Davers

They earned every bit of cynicism and apathy that floats around on the forums.

3-4 times CW was announced as 90 days away.
They KNEW 100% without a doubt that it was NOT going to be ready. They then completely stopped communicating ANY information for 6+ months. (Other than the facade that was AtD)
Right or wrong, that is a lot of customers' perceptions at the moment. Then when they announced the whole "Yay we got a license extension which is what we were REALLY waiting for"
Yea, that just wreaks of deliberately misleading customers. Russ all but said that they hadn't been working on this stuff but they will now so it's all good....

You cannot treat customers like that and expect them to be ok with that. It ruins your credibility and creates a lot of what you have on the forums now. Again, they earned every bit of it and I have zero sympathy for them about that.

Now, with that said....

Lately it seems like they really are working at trying to repair their image and reputation. I'm still on the fence because we got similar lip service when they were pushing PP sales. Feb 4th is make or break for them in the eyes of many. By make or break I don't mean "Ehr Meh Gerd, game is dead"
I mean it will be the determining factor on whether many will spend any money on things like Clan packs and such. I think PGI understands this as well and know they're at the put up or shut up point for many of the "white knights". You don't see nearly the same amount of players defending PGI here on the forums and to me that speaks more loudly than anything else.

It's a free game, sure people will continue joining and playing. They've got nothing to lose. Like it or not though, many of the so-called "whales" are the hardcore Btech lovers who are finally fed up. These are the players that are willing to drop that $500 on a gold mech package. These are the players that are going to drop large amounts of cash on the front-end and continue supporting with smaller purchases alongside the more casual players that make smaller purchases as well.

Free, casual, and hardcore players are all needed for long-term viability of this game. The hardcore are where you're going to get those huge influxes. I'll put it into MWO terms
Hardcore players = ACs
Casual players = Lasers
Free = Missiles
Hardcore are going to get the large front-end cash influx
Casual are going to keep steadier smaller streams over time
Free are going to give irregular amounts here and there

Point being that at this point the first two groups are very unhappy for the most part. Just under a month to go PGI. I really hope you impress me

[Seaglider]

Darius Deadeye, on 08 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I've been in your position as well on multiple occasions, but my question to you is this;

To what extent do you involve the public in the process of unfinished projects? Probably a few disclosure agreements in place?

To whom do you report daily, bi-daily or weekly progress - your senior managers or the end-user?

Project development and management in the traditionel sense is very different from managing what should supposedly be an open-development process of a game, mainly due to all the technical details involved in creating even simple software.

I guess you are right if there is such a big difference with game developing..
Ofcourse you got the whole money-quality-time thing that you report to a steering commitee and principal.
So I figure I crossed over on the matter of subjects a bit.

It's not a management summary I would expect.
But I do think it is wise to prepare your "end-user" for a big impact with even an update if it's delayed or changed.

Anyway I did not want to stir up anything.
Guess I take work home too often....

[Logen Ninefingers]

Darius Deadeye, on 08 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I've been in your position as well on multiple occasions, but my question to you is this;

To what extent do you involve the public in the process of unfinished projects? Probably a few disclosure agreements in place?

To whom do you report daily, bi-daily or weekly progress - your senior managers or the end-user?

Project development and management in the traditionel sense is very different from managing what should supposedly be an open-development process of a game, mainly due to all the technical details involved in creating even simple software.

Nice use of the word end-user, if you change that to customer or investor it sounds a bit different....
If my company misses communicated deadlines you bet we have to report progress as often as our customers want us to. If our customers are not satisfied or p... off, you bet we dont want to lose them since they are our income.

When people were asking, they said 90days after XY CW! They should have said, hey we're going to start our work on CW but we have to figure out AB first. 1 week later AB is problematic we have to fix CD before..... Of course some would have QQed, but most would've said that things like this happen.... etc.
PGIs way was a (~6 month?) communications stop after missing dates, good way to get more money out of your customers / investors....

I wonder how much their communication failure has cost them and how many devs they could have employed if they hadn't fd up their PR? I would've spend more money if they had communicated better or "at all"....

[Mawai]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

+1 to Davers

They earned every bit of cynicism and apathy that floats around on the forums.

3-4 times CW was announced as 90 days away.
They KNEW 100% without a doubt that it was NOT going to be ready. They then completely stopped communicating ANY information for 6+ months. (Other than the facade that was AtD)
Right or wrong, that is a lot of customers' perceptions at the moment. Then when they announced the whole "Yay we got a license extension which is what we were REALLY waiting for"
Yea, that just wreaks of deliberately misleading customers. Russ all but said that they hadn't been working on this stuff but they will now so it's all good....

You cannot treat customers like that and expect them to be ok with that. It ruins your credibility and creates a lot of what you have on the forums now. Again, they earned every bit of it and I have zero sympathy for them about that.

Now, with that said....

Lately it seems like they really are working at trying to repair their image and reputation. I'm still on the fence because we got similar lip service when they were pushing PP sales. Feb 4th is make or break for them in the eyes of many. By make or break I don't mean "Ehr Meh Gerd, game is dead"
I mean it will be the determining factor on whether many will spend any money on things like Clan packs and such. I think PGI understands this as well and know they're at the put up or shut up point for many of the "white knights". You don't see nearly the same amount of players defending PGI here on the forums and to me that speaks more loudly than anything else.

It's a free game, sure people will continue joining and playing. They've got nothing to lose. Like it or not though, many of the so-called "whales" are the hardcore Btech lovers who are finally fed up. These are the players that are willing to drop that $500 on a gold mech package. These are the players that are going to drop large amounts of cash on the front-end and continue supporting with smaller purchases alongside the more casual players that make smaller purchases as well.

Free, casual, and hardcore players are all needed for long-term viability of this game. The hardcore are where you're going to get those huge influxes. I'll put it into MWO terms
Hardcore players = ACs
Casual players = Lasers
Free = Missiles
Hardcore are going to get the large front-end cash influx
Casual are going to keep steadier smaller streams over time
Free are going to give irregular amounts here and there

Point being that at this point the first two groups are very unhappy for the most part. Just under a month to go PGI. I really hope you impress me

Just to add. My make or break in terms of spending more money or considering purchasing clans is April. UI2,0 has been tested a couple of times and they have already stated they will push it out with bugs. So, if they don't make the February date with the very low level of expectations that they have set then they have bigger problems. However, the rewrite of the front end including lobbies, private matches, matchmaker improvements and a number of other essential features for the future growth of the game are due the first 2 weeks of April. In my opinion, if they can deliver on this target in terms of content and time then they may really have turned a corner in terms of development ... and the odds of them hitting future milestones are better.

The April deadline also will allow PGI the opportunity to demonstrate improved communications with the community. If I was them, I would be certain that any delays or changes in what they have said they will accomplish would be promptly and clearly transmitted to the community.

Unlike traditional games in which all the development effort comes first followed by the release of the game ... PGI is following a new model of crowd-funding the game while development is on-going through the "free to play" model. However, this means that every one of their customers ... the people who spend money on the game and in turn pay for that development effort ... are watching them over their shoulders and have a vested interest and I think a reasonable expectation of some insight into that development process. Completely shutting their player base out of the development process creates the situation that they have right now ... limited respect for the developer since they show limited respect for their customers.

What I don't get is that PGI really seems unable to understand that more open communication would be a good thing.

(As an aside, I funded a kickstarter board game almost a year ago ... every week the game developer sends out a update covering what they did that week, proofs from the manufacturer, play testing, edits, art revisions. The update includes a mention of any delays or problems as well as positive news on design improvements or other changes. They have even run polls to select names for in-game items and other small design elements. They already HAVE my money ... there is nothing I could do to change the game if I could ... they are under no obligation to keep the folks that funded the effort informed ... BUT THEY DO ... and the entire community for that game appears positive and supportive of the developer. PGI could honestly really learn something from their example.

I realize that the scale of investment is different ... however, the board game developer doesn't have any real reason to keep his backers happy except that positive word of mouth will probably sell more games sometime in the future. On the other hand, the relationship that PGI has with its community will directly affect their corporate bottom line in terms of happy customers spend more ... and happy customers are ones you talk to ... at least in my opinion).

Sigh ... /rant off

[Sandpit]

I don't have a hard date (except 02-04 for 2.0) but I suspect I have windows of opportunity where I'll be staring at $240 in my hand and making a determination of whether it goes to PGI or elsewhere

[RG Notch]

Davers, on 08 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

@OP

As a project manager, do you set deadlines and make promises to your customers that you know will not be kept? Like promising Community Warfare 90 days after open beta while knowing full well that no one is working on it, and in fact the design for it hadn't even been done? That is what makes the players cynical.

Actually promising 6 months after launch (when they were selling Project Phoenix packs) and now 6 months after selling Clan packages and the clear fact they weren't working on anything until they secured the license for a longer term is what makes people cynical.