48 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

unless one of the variants has a bigger engine

Omnimech "variants" (alternate configs) don't swap engines.

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 11 January 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Omnimech "variants" (alternate configs) don't swap engines.

I didn't say swap an engine, I said unless another variant has a bigger enging
Primary Config xx engine
Config A xx engine
Config B xx engine

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

I didn't say swap an engine, I said unless another variant has a bigger enging
Primary Config xx engine
Config A xx engine
Config B xx engine

That's what I meant. All stock configs of any given Omni share the same engine.

[Uncle Totty]

Clan weapons on IS mechs? Why not? The Clans do it all the time.

[Goose of Prey]

There are quite a few reasons to pilot a Clan Mech over an Innershpere Mech without considering weapons.

1st Clan xl engines only use 2 side torso slots, saving 2 critical slots. Engine kills require 3 slots to be destroyed. IF Clanners are not allowed to swap engines, then it is safe to assume clan engines will not be a part of the inventory. Innershpere Mechs, therefore, will have no means of equipping these engines. (Give me these engines over weapons any day.)

2nd Clan double heat sinks only use two critical locations and are pre-assigned same as engines. Thus, probably, unavailable to Innersphere Mechs. (I don’t think they will allow adding extra heat sinks, depends on interpretation of Russ’s statements)
A. DHS in the leg.

3rd Endo Steele and Ferro-Fibrous Armor only take 7 critical spaces each, and FF Armor gets more points per ton. This allows for more weapons due to greater available space and lighter armor.

4th Equipment such as ECM and BAP should be fixed and unavailable in inventory, as well as being lighter and more effective.

5th Free: no weight, no critical, CASE in all clan Mechs.

These are all I can remember off the top of my head. Add any I’ve forgotten.

On a side note.

Oddly enough Clans are the only reason I think UI.2 will be released soon. Without separate inventory tabs to manage Mech arms, torsos, and equipment clan Mechs would be unmanageable. It would be such a large addition to the current system that PGI would spend less to create a whole new UI.

We might even glean a few answers about clan Mechs by the layout of UI.2. Hope we don’t have to and they just tell us. I’m worried that UI.2 could be delayed until summer. Seeing as the Mechs aren’t built yet.

Thoughts?

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 11 January 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

That's what I meant. All stock configs of any given Omni share the same engine.

Are you theory crafting or is that stated? I'm not one to ask for citation, just wanting to know if that's a for sure type thing or just something we're speculating on. Finding info on stuff is a pain and one of the main reasons I haven't bought a clan pack yet (Hint Hint PGI)

[Red1769]

Quote

Are you theory crafting or is that stated? I'm not one to ask for citation, just wanting to know if that's a for sure type thing or just something we're speculating on. Finding info on stuff is a pain and one of the main reasons I haven't bought a clan pack yet (Hint Hint PGI)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

Quote

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.^[26] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech.

Bolded the important part and did the direct quote from the disadvantages part. Which means no, you can't change the engine without making it a standard battlemech and losing the ability to swap pods/hardpoints and means that all "variants" of the mech, Primary, A, and B, all use the same engine rating and type. While Paul did say that they were gonna keep that, they also did say that they might ease up on the restrictions a little bit if balance requires it. Which I can see the armor restriction being lifted, especially for the Thor. I can only see the Uller/Kit Fox being viable if its profile is really small...otherwise I see it as a good ambush mech if you give it a big gun or couple moderately sized guns. But as Sandpit said, it really depends on what restrictions they keep and what ones they don't, and how they handle the weapons (and I mean for sure, not what they're currently thinking, which can change, and is linked below). Below is the link to that specific post, towards the bottom. Note that is the only thing we have about how they're thinking about the clans.

http://mwomercs.com/...gn-perspective/

Until we know for sure, it's all mostly speculation. I hope to see more information next month on what they're thinking or what they're leaning towards.

Edited by Red1769, 12 January 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Sandpit]

Red1769, on 12 January 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech




Bolded the important part and did the direct quote from the disadvantages part. Which means no, you can't change the engine without making it a standard battlemech and losing the ability to swap pods/hardpoints and means that all "variants" of the mech, Primary, A, and B, all use the same engine rating and type. While Paul did say that they were gonna keep that, they also did say that they might ease up on the restrictions a little bit if balance requires it. Which I can see the armor restriction being lifted, especially for the Thor. I can only see the Uller/Kit Fox being viable if its profile is really small...otherwise I see it as a good ambush mech if you give it a big gun or couple moderately sized guns. But as Sandpit said, it really depends on what restrictions they keep and what ones they don't, and how they handle the weapons (and I mean for sure, not what they're currently thinking, which can change, and is linked below). Below is the link to that specific post, towards the bottom. Note that is the only thing we have about how they're thinking about the clans.

http://mwomercs.com/...gn-perspective/

Until we know for sure, it's all mostly speculation. I hope to see more information next month on what they're thinking or what they're leaning towards.

Thank you sir

I hope they offer a little more variety. I like the idea that you can't alter those specific components but I'd like to see the different configurations offer more variety on their base sets
Config A = 300 Standard
Config B = 350 XL

Although I can see where thay would create issues in the whole swapping out limbs so realistically I don't know if that would even be feasible.

[Bront]

Yeah, in lore, all Omni variants had the same core stuff (Armor, Endo/FF, stock HS, Engine) and then pod space. As it stands, the only locked in stuff in the CT is hardpoints, which simply means any variant CTs with hardpoints are better than variants without. I'd love to see PGI actually do something that deviates from the cannon builds a little bit to bring some variety to Omni-mechs, such as a varient with a bigger (or smaller, or XL) engine. That would make the CT variant mean something other than "Hardpoint, yes or no?". They just have to be careful to not make one significantly superior to another.

[Mawai]

As I understand it ... part of the balance of omni-mechs and clan weapons is that the base configuration of the mech will not be configurable. This means that armor, engine and structure will not be customizable on a clan mech. If this is the case then I can't see clan weapons being equipable on IS mechs because part of the balance will be in the mech itself ... though we will see how it actually goes down if and when it is all released.

[Sandpit]

Wait, that quote was from Sarna?

After rereading the Dev info I stand by my earlier assertion. They have not said all configs will ahve same engines and such. So config A might have one config b might have a different one. We'll jsut have to wait and see

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 12 January 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Are you theory crafting or is that stated? I'm not one to ask for citation, just wanting to know if that's a for sure type thing or just something we're speculating on. Finding info on stuff is a pain and one of the main reasons I haven't bought a clan pack yet (Hint Hint PGI)

I'm going off of the TT rules and record sheets. It's written into the BT rules that Omnimechs can't change various parts of their body between base/primary/alternate configurations, and engines are among those components (also includes all of the other stuff mentioned in the Command Chair post). By extension, this would mean that the alternate and primary variants of an Omnimech carry the same engine size as the base configuration. You can find these rules in the Techmanual or on Sarna if you don't want to hunt down an online PDF (most PDFs are only previews that don't include the whole book, so they're not very helpful).


The only way to get a different engine on an Omni (or modify any of the other "core" parts) is to use the refit rules from Strategic Operations.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 12 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Wait, that quote was from Sarna?

After rereading the Dev info I stand by my earlier assertion. They have not said all configs will ahve same engines and such. So config A might have one config b might have a different one. We'll jsut have to wait and see

Here is an excerpt from the Command Chair post:



So, as far as we have been told, all Omni variants will share the same engine as the base configuration (TT rules). Of course, PGI may pull a fast one on us and change their mind at whim, but this is currently all we have to go off of.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[Sandpit]

FupDup, on 12 January 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Here is an excerpt from the Command Chair post:



So, as far as we have been told, all Omni variants will share the same engine as the base configuration (TT rules). Of course, PGI may pull a fast one on us and change their mind at whim, but this is currently all we have to go off of.

I'm just interpreting that to mean something else I guess.
I take it to mean same engine as each config can have its own engine
So:
Kit Fox A = 320 Standard
Kit Fox B = 300 XL
Kit Fox C = 325 XL

That would mean those mechs are stuck with those engines and cannot be cahnged but doesn't mean that all three configs have the same engine. I may be overthinking this one a bit I guess

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 13 January 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

I'm just interpreting that to mean something else I guess.
I take it to mean same engine as each config can have its own engine
So:
Kit Fox A = 320 Standard
Kit Fox B = 300 XL
Kit Fox C = 325 XL

That would mean those mechs are stuck with those engines and cannot be cahnged but doesn't mean that all three configs have the same engine. I may be overthinking this one a bit I guess

I think its a nice idea, but perhaps sold separately, otherwise PGI would have to make a new mech loadout to account for the lost/gained tonnage. The configs on Sarna/from TT are already at max capacity.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 13 January 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I think its a nice idea, but perhaps sold separately, otherwise PGI would have to make a new mech loadout to account for the lost/gained tonnage. The configs on Sarna/from TT are already at max capacity.

I agree, I jsut think with the way the game works now, they'll have to do something like this to make clans "worth" the money they're asking for them

[General Taskeen]

There are IS Mech variants with Clan Technology in Battle Tech. So there is that.

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 13 January 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

I'm just interpreting that to mean something else I guess.
I take it to mean same engine as each config can have its own engine
So:
Kit Fox A = 320 Standard
Kit Fox B = 300 XL
Kit Fox C = 325 XL

That would mean those mechs are stuck with those engines and cannot be cahnged but doesn't mean that all three configs have the same engine. I may be overthinking this one a bit I guess

The gist of the command chair is that all Omnimechs have a "base" configuration that the prime and alternates are built using. The base config starts out with a specific amount of armor, heatsinks, engine, etc. etc. and a bunch of free pod space to mount equipment. All primary and alternate configs are created by stuffing the base config with different pieces of equipment.


For instance, the base Kit Fox comes with an XL 180 and 16 tons of empty pod space, along with roughly as much armor as a maxed-out Locust. http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3028.pdf

The Prime and Alternate configs of the Fox are all built using that "core," and all they can change is the 16 tons of equipment in pods and can fiddle with the actuators as necessary (i.e. most configs don't have a hand in the right arm, or an upper arm actuator). The rest is hard-wired unless you're using the StratOps refit rules and have all of the necessary prerequisites to overhaul that baby.

Here are the TT record sheets for any Kit Fox configs available in 3050:
Base: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3028.pdf
Prime: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3029.pdf
Alt A: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3030.pdf
Alt B: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3031.pdf
Alt C: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3032.pdf
Alt D: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3033.pdf
Alt S: http://bte.battletec...te/pdf/3040.pdf



Of course, PGI might possibly choose to bend the rules a bit and give them different engines (breaking the stock builds in the process, but I never really liked the stock builds anyways). I'm only saying that hardlocked engines are what we've been told up to this point; it's entirely possible for the devs to change their minds on this.

Personally I'd actually like them to change their minds, because having the same engine and stuff across all configs will probably lead to only a handful of "cookie cutter" loadouts being useful (only so many viable ways to use up 16 tons on a light mech...).

Edited by FupDup, 13 January 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Hillslam]

We all know how this will work:

Clanners will pick the core variant they want of a particular Chassis. Prime, A, B, whatever.

Then they'll hook on the pods/arms that give them the weapon slots they want, in the locations they want.

Result: clan mechs will be extremely flexible and powerful.

I laugh at any clanner who even tries the arguement that IS mechs are more customizable than Clan's. The clan mech approach are FAR more flexible where it counts.

AKA gimma clan weapons fer ma IS Atlas. Because? Becauseas an IS player/customer I'll NEVER be able to put two AC20s on its arms. Clan assaults will be able to pull stuff like this off. (or anything else they like) And they'll be fielded 3mins after they're released too.

[Sandpit]

Hillslam, on 13 January 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

We all know how this will work:

Clanners will pick the core variant they want of a particular Chassis. Prime, A, B, whatever.

Then they'll hook on the pods/arms that give them the weapon slots they want, in the locations they want.

Result: clan mechs will be extremely flexible and powerful.

I laugh at any clanner who even tries the arguement that IS mechs are more customizable than Clan's. The clan mech approach are FAR more flexible where it counts.

AKA gimma clan weapons fer ma IS Atlas. Because? Becauseas an IS player/customer I'll NEVER be able to put two AC20s on its arms. Clan assaults will be able to pull stuff like this off. (or anything else they like) And they'll be fielded 3mins after they're released too.

never mind that you can change the armor and engine values on the Atlas. You're right though, it's a huge conspiracy!