8 replies to this topic

[Bogdan Kobzar]

I've searched the forums, but I haven't found an answer.

my scenario is as follows, because I keep getting killed
I'm in a mech with both BAP and the unlocked equipped ADV. Sensor Module with NOTHING showing on radar.

After I'm getting nailed, (still nothing on radar) it's either a Raven 3L, Spider5D, Cicada3M, AtlasDDC with or without other non-ECM mechs in it's "bubble"

I thought that having a BAP would negate the ECM in short range.

Either I'm mistaken, or there's a legal exploit that I'm not aware of, or some kind of 'glitch'
disregard: Thanks to Overlord, I have gained a better understanding of how ECM works, now I need to apply the knowledge to my playing style to try to survive through to the end of the match.

Please explain, it's starting to get really frustrating, ending a match with no kills, no assists, damage done under 15 points, and a match score under 10.

Thanks in advance

from http://mwo.gamepedia.com/BAP
it says:
It counters 1 ECM within the range of 150m. It works the same way as an ECM in counter mode. [4]
If a 'Mech has both BAP and ECM installed, the counter ECM feature gets overwritten by ECM. So the 'Mech will only get the increased sensor range and the ability to target unpowered 'Mechs.

After initial post addendum:
Do BAP (25% increased sensor range) and unlocked-equipped sensor range module (25% increased sensor range) stack?

Edited by Bogdan Kobzar, 12 January 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[Bront]

BAP counters ECM at 150M I believe (there's a small area where it doesn't but ECM is in effect I think), but it only counters 1 ECM, so if you have 2 or more by you (not uncommon in a light swarm), BAP still won't help you.

Meanwhile, outside of even 180M, you can't lock on to an ECM mech, and anyone in the ECM Bubble can't give you their lock on information, so folks scouting that get hit with an ECM bubble can't relay positions effectively.

And yes, if your mech has BAP and ECM, you need to turn the ECM to counter to get the counter effect, as it overrides the BAP (which is why many ECM mechs don't need BAP even if they run streaks).

[Bhelogan]

If the mechs are behind you, you won't see them as well. Seismic sensor helps a lot with this when you can get it.

[Redshift2k5]

BAP and sensor range module do stack.

As said above, BAP can counter an ECM but only one ECM and only within 150m; their exact range will affect whether you are countering them and whether you can lock a target.

Are you being killed by targets you can SEE but can't lock, or are you being killed from the sides, the back, etc? your radar won't show enemies not in your line of sight no matter what range they're at or what equipment you're using, with the exception of Siesmic Sensor (which only pings when you stand still, has limited range, and can ping from weaponsfire leading to false positives)

[Konril]

I think I can see what is going on.

Beagle Active Probes and ECM in counter mode will "counter," one hostile ECM up to 150 m. or 180 m. away. That means if the ECM mech itself gets into that range, the countered ECM is effectively turned off until the ECM mech can get out of that bubble. This is a huge help when you're using Streak SRM missiles as hostile ECM is much less likely to kill your lock and make your missiles useless. But outside of that short range, the Beagle can't to anything against a hostile ECM.

The main effect of ECM is to reduce the base range of radar from 800 m. to 200 m. Advanced Sensors does help a little bit here, 25% more of 200 m. is 250 m. So you can detect an ECM cloaked mech on radar up to that distance. Also, being in a hostile ECM will reduce your base radar to 200 m. But if you are that close to a hostile ECM, you shouldn't have any problem detecting or targeting the ECM user or anybody else in that bubble. Just be aware that sharing of targeting data and locking missiles aren't going to happen when you are jammed. (And that is where the Beagle really helps when up against ECM mechs.)

Beyond that 250 m. ECM really shows its usefulness. Simply put, there is no way of actually detecting ECM protected units except with your eyes. Large lasers, PPCs, and even autocannons have the range to damage and kill an opponent without ever appearing on that opponent's radar. So you actually need to see one of these snipers to know he is there.

Once you do see them, it is possible to target them using the TAG laser. Since the TAG has a very narrow beam, it doesn't replace the need to actually see them first. However, tagging and targeting an ECM cloaked opponent from outside his ECM bubble will let your own team know that an enemy ECM is there. So I find it very useful to carry one whenever I can.

[Bogdan Kobzar]

Some more advanced questions about BAP, ECM, and adv. sensor module
Thanks again for taking the time to post a reply.

Senario One
Blue Team
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module traveling together
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
Red Team
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module traveling close to the other two mechs (180m)
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module and are within the ECM bubble (180m)
They are approaching each other head to head

1) for the Red Team, does the ECM mech negate the other two mechs BAP for detection of the Blue Team's ECM mech?
2) How is the adv. sensor module equipped mechs affected by the ECM?


Scenario Two
Blue Team
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
Red Team
1 mech with BAP & adv. sensor module and within the ECM bubble (180m)
2 mechs with ECM & adv. sensor module and are within the ECM bubble (180m)
They are approaching each other head to head

3) Are any of the Blue Team's mech able to detect the Red Team, since BAP will only counter one ECM and the Red Team has 2 ECM equipped next to each other?
4) How is the adv. sensor module equipped mechs affected by the ECM?

[xengk]

I think there needs to explain how Radar works in this game.
The radar only display enemies that you or your teammates have lock on(pressing the R key), any enemy that are not lock on will not appear on the radar, even if he is within sight.
To lock on an enemy, you must have visual of that enemy and he is within your radar range.
Alternatively you can also lock on to a enemy who is out of sight to you, but is being lock by your teammate(target sharing).

BAP
This equipment is always "on" and will counter 1 ECM in 150m radius, allowing you to cut through the "Low Signal" to gain missile lock on that ECM carrying mech or any enemy mech on the radar. It is a must have for any mech that is using SSRM2 or LRM as their primary weapon.
BAP also increase your radar range by 25% and let you lock on to target 25% faster.

Adv. Sensor module
This module extend your radar's range by 25%, and it can be stack with BAP.

The standard radar have a range of 800m, the Adv. module extend that range by 25% to 1000m. Stacking with the BAP will further extend your radar to 1200m.
However, having long range radar still will not detect enemies that are not lock by you or friendlies. But allows you to lock on to enemy at long range.

Personally, I think having 1000m radar range is an overkill.
Only weapon that require lock to operate at 1000m are LRMs, but LRM have a travel time of 120m per second. This mean to hit a target at 1000m, the missile will have about 8 seconds flight time, which is plenty of time for the target to get into cover unless he is out in the open or missing a leg.

*correction to radar range as pointed out by Konril.

Edited by xengk, 13 January 2014 - 02:40 AM.

[Konril]

xengk, on 12 January 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

The standard radar have a range of 750m, the Adv. module extend that range by 25% to about 940m. Stacking with the BAP will further extend your radar to 1125m.
However, having long range radar still will not detect enemies that are not lock by friendlies. But allows you to lock on to enemy at long range.

Last I checked, base radar range without enhancement is 800, So that extends to 1000 m. with either advanced sensors or BAP, or to 1200 m. with both at the same time.

If you think it's overkill then you aren't thinking about the team. Being able to detect where the opponent is and share that information with your team can make a difference in whether your team ambushes the opponent or walks straight into an enemy ambush. Even at 1200 m. away, targeting an enemy mech will let your allies know it is there, if they're paying attention. There is also the interesting fact that heat and night vision only works up to 800 m. So, on some maps your enhanced radar can see farther than you can. (And on other maps, just the opposite.)

Bogdan Kobzar, on 12 January 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Some more advanced questions about BAP, ECM, and adv. sensor module
Thanks again for taking the time to post a reply.

Senario One
Blue Team
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module traveling together
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
Red Team
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module traveling close to the other two mechs (180m)
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module and are within the ECM bubble (180m)
They are approaching each other head to head

1) for the Red Team, does the ECM mech negate the other two mechs BAP for detection of the Blue Team's ECM mech?
2) How is the adv. sensor module equipped mechs affected by the ECM?

1) The blue team's ECM is too far away from his allies to protect them. So the red team will be able to see the two blue BAP mechs up to 1200 m. away. That's 800 + 200 for BAP + 200 for advanced sensors. The blue team's ECM mech, however, does cloak itself so the red team won't see him at all on radar unless they get much closer.

2) Advanced sensors vs. ECM has already been explained. With advanced sensors, ECM protected opponents will appear on radar up to 250 m. away instead of the 200 m. away you get from just the basic radar. So Red won't show up on Blue's radar until Blue gets within 250 m. of the Red mechs.

Bogdan Kobzar, on 12 January 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Scenario Two
Blue Team
2 mechs with BAP & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
1 mech with ECM & adv. sensor module 'solo' more than 400m away from team mates
Red Team
1 mech with BAP & adv. sensor module and within the ECM bubble (180m)
2 mechs with ECM & adv. sensor module and are within the ECM bubble (180m)
They are approaching each other head to head

3) Are any of the Blue Team's mech able to detect the Red Team, since BAP will only counter one ECM and the Red Team has 2 ECM equipped next to each other?
4) How is the adv. sensor module equipped mechs affected by the ECM?

3) If one of the blue mechs is within 250 m. of the red team (advanced sensors), that mech will be able to see the red team on radar, but the other two blue mechs will get nothing on radar until the one blue under attack targets a red mech.

But that will change rapidly once both red ECM mechs get within 180 m. of the isolated blue mech. The lone blue mech would only be able to counter one red ECM, so would feel the full effects of the other red ECM as soon as both are close enough. If the other two blue allies didn't see the blip on their radar as the reds got close whether by not paying attention or the attacked blue mech's failure to target fast enough then all they would see is the fact that the blue mech under attack is being jammed (and probably losing health fast).

4) This answer hasn't changed. Without the Advanced Sensor module, ECM protected mechs will only appear on radar under 200 m. instead of under 250 m.

[xengk]

Konril, on 12 January 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Last I checked, base radar range without enhancement is 800, So that extends to 1000 m. with either advanced sensors or BAP, or to 1200 m. with both at the same time.

If you think it's overkill then you aren't thinking about the team. Being able to detect where the opponent is and share that information with your team can make a difference in whether your team ambushes the opponent or walks straight into an enemy ambush. Even at 1200 m. away, targeting an enemy mech will let your allies know it is there, if they're paying attention. There is also the interesting fact that heat and night vision only works up to 800 m. So, on some maps your enhanced radar can see farther than you can. (And on other maps, just the opposite.)

You are correct, standard radar range is at 800m. http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/
I have always operate under the impression that the standard radar is 750m.

As for the enemy detect, I usually convey the information by typing in team chat.
A simple "d2 3" will let the team know the location and the number of enemy in that area, instead of spending few second to lock on a target. I can spend that extra few second on eyeballing them so I might add "ract hawk jag".
You still need LOS to detect and lock enemy, Im confident with my "Eyeball1.0" module to spot LOS enemies. lol
The benefit of long range radar lock however is allow you to share lock and weapon load out info with the team, also to cash in on detection CBill and XP.

I would take a seismic module over adv. sensor, it is better to alert the team to the immediate enemy ambush instead of enemy lance who are 1000m away.