61 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

Here's the deal with LRMs:

- When they hit, they deal okay-ish damage. If boated, they can be too powerful by being indirect weapons, therefore not always giving the chance to the victim to fight back.

- When used on medium mechs, you need to allocate too many tons on ammo alone, since 2 tons is barely enough to deal over 200 dmg.

- They are easily dodged, and therefore not really a reliable as a source of damage overall. They're either hit or miss. Even if they hit, they're only okay, not OP at all.

What I suggest is to increase their speed, but also increase their cooldown. What it means is while they have more chances to hit their target, they can be fired less often thus do not become overpowered. I won't give specific numbers, but a speed increase of 40% and a cooldown increase near 30-40% could do the trick.

Thoughts?

[Sug]

Just the speed increase ty. Makes them usable over 500m.

[Corvus Antaka]

increasing their speed by only 25% could be plenty.

[Skyfaller]

Actually no. Both speed, refire rate and damage are fine.

The problem lies in the idiotic missile warning message.

Only mechs with AMS should receive this warning.

Back in the day when there was no missile warning players would always watch the sky to see if the swarm was coming in their direction or not. When the LRM's got uber-buffed the whining reached such levels that instead of fixing LRM damage they added the missile warning message... when the LRM's were toned down the warning remained and it screwed the LRM as a long range weapon or even as a support fire weapon. You can't support your team very well with them if the enemy is told missiles are incoming before they leave your launch tubes.

[Sug]

Skyfaller, on 14 January 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Actually no. Both speed, refire rate and damage are fine.

The problem lies in the idiotic missile warning message.

Only mechs with AMS should receive this warning.

There's an idea. That stupid message gives you an 8 sec warning at max range. Too much. Start a petition that will be ignored.

Edit - Actually more like a 10+ sec warning at max range because of the arc. They're essentially useless over 800m unless your target is dc'd

Edited by Sug, 15 January 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Sybreed]

Sug, on 14 January 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Just the speed increase ty. Makes them usable over 500m.

you'll have another lrmapocalypse whinefest

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Increasing speed would need to be accompanied with increasing the range for being able to lock on.

So they could still be dead 0 to 180, dumb-fire only 180 to say 450 or 540, and then can lock-on beyond that to whatever max range 1000 or more.



Probably could use the SSRM 'bone' targeting for salvos so more impact and no long seek the CT.

Then, another idea is to reduce missiles per salvo and increase the damage per missile on account of hit reg concerns (also adjusting missiles per ton to keep the damage per ton near or at 180 or 198 damage).

AMS would need to be tweaked some, but not much depending on increases to missile health. So, could be 1 missile at 5 damage from an LRM 5 up to 4 missiles of 5 damage each from an LRM 20.

With there current 120 m/s that could be enough to test to see if such changes can work.

[Khobai]

The main problem with LRMs are ECM and the lack of spotting by teammates.

[Sug]

I like the idea of removing the Incoming Missile warning unless you have AMS. If not that then I'd like them to add acceleration to the missiles instead of a flat speed. That way targets in the current effective range of like 500m-600m would have the same amount of time to react but LRMs would be more capable of hitting targets in the 900m-1000m range.

[Skyfaller]

Praetor Shepard, on 14 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Probably could use the SSRM 'bone' targeting for salvos so more impact and no long seek the CT.

Careful what you wish for. Early beta the LRM was almost like this. They hit the legs, head and the arms just as regularly as the torso. Why was it adjusted to torso-mostly? Mechs getting legged or losing most of their weapons (arms in many mechs) after just a salvo or two from an LRM boat. Remember, the arms have the least armor and legs have no front/back so LRMs will whittle the leg armor off quickly & detonate ammo in there with the first salvo that hits the unarmored leg. Plus the very high incidence of head-shot kills from the very first LRM salvo.

Praetor Shepard, on 14 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Then, another idea is to reduce missiles per salvo and increase the damage per missile on account of hit reg concerns (also adjusting missiles per ton to keep the damage per ton near or at 180 or 198 damage).

AMS would need to be tweaked some, but not much depending on increases to missile health. So, could be 1 missile at 5 damage from an LRM 5 up to 4 missiles of 5 damage each from an LRM 20.

With there current 120 m/s that could be enough to test to see if such changes can work.

Reducing missiles per salvo and increasing damage per missile only makes them deadlier as per the LRM5 example of it hitting the CT with 3 out of 5 missiles.

AMS itself does not need to be tweaked at all. Only make it so that the AMS installed is the only means to get a missile warning and give it a pilot module upgrade skill. First upgrade increases range to 250m (from 200), the second increases it to 300m.

ok it does need to be tweaked so it fires only at missiles within its LOS but thats just a fix more than an improvement tweak.

Edited by Skyfaller, 14 January 2014 - 08:57 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, that's why we need to test out any changes, to see what can work best for LRMs.

And I certainly agree with the AMS change for the Warning; that change should be in regardless of any changes to missiles.

[Sybreed]

Skyfaller, on 14 January 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Careful what you wish for. Early beta the LRM was almost like this. They hit the legs, head and the arms just as regularly as the torso. Why was it adjusted to torso-mostly? Mechs getting legged or losing most of their weapons (arms in many mechs) after just a salvo or two from an LRM boat. Remember, the arms have the least armor and legs have no front/back so LRMs will whittle the leg armor off quickly & detonate ammo in there with the first salvo that hits the unarmored leg. Plus the very high incidence of head-shot kills from the very first LRM salvo.

and careful what you blabber? They never specifically targeted legs or arms, but their splash radius made them deal damage all over the mech. When they removed splash damaged, they dealt CT damage mostly because that was where they were aiming at to begin with. Removing splash meant they dealt their damage only on the point of impact: the CT.

They felt better with splash damage, but they were doing way too much damage.

edit: well, apparently you were right? I still don't remember LRMs acting like you said they did.

Edited by Sybreed, 15 January 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Mr 144]

dagnabit sybreed, you made me logon to the forums instead of my usual sandbagging

ECM blah blah whine whine...not a problem for good LRM use...only for boats.

Cooldown increase...no. LRMs need a "usability" buff...and this would offset any gains made.

Speed increase...yes. Not much, but when used appropriatly at mid-range with LoS, the current slow speed is far to problematic. In these scenarios, every other weapon in the game can hit, but LRMs still miss quite often, and that ain't right. The speed boost should be minor (25% max) as indirect "lobbing" is a trade-off of ammo vs. damage...and should be kept that way (suppression has it's uses).

Damage...acceptable as-is.

Bone targeting....sure. Not a big reason either way. Bone targeting will increase the likely-hood of legging/dis-arming while reducing CT priority...either way, they're still usefull...either kill or cripple...meh either way.

AMS = Missile warning....he77 yes! Adds a novelty. Inreases LRM usability. etc.

The only use I've found currently is in "heavy" mixed builds...boats are rarely worth the coordinated effort. I like that. "ancedotal evidence"...I can pop off a consistent 500+ average damage match with any build comprised of 2xALRM15s and ACs, SRMs, or Energy, and I think thats how it should be. All in all...I think Lurms are close (they'll never be "comp")...and a speed increase plus warning tied to AMS would be perfect imho.

[Skyfaller]

Sybreed, on 14 January 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

and careful what you blabber? They never specifically targeted legs or arms, but their splash radius made them deal damage all over the mech. When they removed splash damaged, they dealt CT damage mostly because that was where they were aiming at to begin with. Removing splash meant they dealt their damage only on the point of impact: the CT.

They felt better with splash damage, but they were doing way too much damage.

Splash damage was introduced after this change was made. Early beta LRMs had no splash.

I remember loading my CatA1 with barely 10 armor in the front (none rear), 1 jet (back then 1 jet = full jets ..we all enjoyed that glitch for a good while) with 4 LRM20s, 1200 lrm ammo and an XL145 engine. I was essentially a glass poptart LRM. I hid behind cover and crawled behind my team... I knew that just ONE salvo of that monstrosity would either remove one/both arms of all but an assault mech or headshot it.

When splash was introduced the problem shifted from leg/headshot/arm popping to CT-popping issue...granted the CT took longer to pop since it had more armor.

Now we have low radius splash. Imagine what will happen when the bone-tracking system is introduced. A hit to the LT or RT will splash into the arms..hits into the arms splash into the LT/RT. Arms will be popped off even faster. If splash is removed completely you return to early beta with arms and legs still being critically vulnerable to LRMs more so than the torso.

I think it is far more irritating to know that if an LRM boat volley strikes I will almost guaranteed lose one or both of my arms rather than the current torso armor taking a blow yet my mech remains fully functional system.

Edited by Skyfaller, 15 January 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Sybreed]

Skyfaller, on 15 January 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Splash damage was introduced after this change was made. Early beta LRMs had no splash. When splash was introduced the problem shifted from leg/headshot/arm popping to CT-popping issue...granted the CT took longer to pop since it had more armor.

Now we have low radius splash. Imagine what will happen when the bone-tracking system is introduced. A hit to the LT or RT will splash into the arms..hits into the arms splash into the LT/RT. Arms will be popped off even faster. If splash is removed completely you return to early beta with arms and legs still being critically vulnerable to LRMs more so than the torso.

I think it is far more irritating to know that if an LRM boat volley strikes I will almost guaranteed lose one or both of my arms rather than the current torso armor taking a blow yet my mech remains fully functional system.

hmm, well I'll give you the point, you seem to remember how it evolved during CB better than me. But, I don't think LRMs would do enough damage to truly damage components like arms or legs. If you think about it, a standard LRM 30 salvo would deal what, around 5-6 damage per components? That doesn't even consider AMS or missiles missing their targets. Also, one of my suggestion's goal is to make each LRM salvo count, therefore making it less necessary to boat massive amounts of ammo, that would help medium mechs immensely.

Edited by Sybreed, 15 January 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[Skyfaller]

LRM30 isnt a boat. Quad LRM15s or 3 LRM20s is a boat. If the bone system is put on LRMs you will see a big resurgence on missile boats and we'll have a lot of armless, screaming mechs in the first 2 minutes of play.

[Sybreed]

Skyfaller, on 15 January 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

LRM30 isnt a boat. Quad LRM15s or 3 LRM20s is a boat. If the bone system is put on LRMs you will see a big resurgence on missile boats and we'll have a lot of armless, screaming mechs in the first 2 minutes of play.

well, there's the reason why I created a thread called "Boating prevents LRMs from being balanced" almost a year ago

Edited by Sybreed, 15 January 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 14 January 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Here's the deal with LRMs:

- When they hit, they deal okay-ish damage. If boated, they can be too powerful by being indirect weapons, therefore not always giving the chance to the victim to fight back.

- When used on medium mechs, you need to allocate too many tons on ammo alone, since 2 tons is barely enough to deal over 200 dmg.

- They are easily dodged, and therefore not really a reliable as a source of damage overall. They're either hit or miss. Even if they hit, they're only okay, not OP at all.

What I suggest is to increase their speed, but also increase their cooldown. What it means is while they have more chances to hit their target, they can be fired less often thus do not become overpowered. I won't give specific numbers, but a speed increase of 40% and a cooldown increase near 30-40% could do the trick.

Thoughts?

I should have known I could count on you sir.

I started reading your post with the idea It would be stupid, not noticing you were the OP.

Thanks for continuing to make good suggestions sir!

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 January 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I should have known I could count on you sir.

I started reading your post with the idea It would be stupid, not noticing you were the OP.

Thanks for continuing to make good suggestions sir!

why, thank you!

Edited by Sybreed, 15 January 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Scrap the "INCOMING MISSILE" warning. Implement a "RADAR LOCK" warning. Different, more subtle tone that goes off whenever someone just has a lock on you. That's pretty much how aircraft systems work these days anyway (or at least they did in the 'classical' dogfighting era).

It's enough to give warning that something bad could happen, but doesn't actually tip the shooter's hand when it does. Added bonus: mechs out of ammo can still intimidate unsuspecting enemies.