13 replies to this topic

[Rando Slim]

So I am very new to lrm boats, I love Trebs but not as lrm boats. Anyway I finally gave in and said hey you know what, I hate lrms so much Im gonna learn how to use them.

Im too lazy to go through and remake all my different smurfy builds that I didnt save, sorry its just faster to type it up at this point. All these builds I will mention will use DHS, ENDO, between 336 and max armor, and maybe one added heat sink besides the engine sinks.

I have a 2H that has one lrm-5, 2 lrm-10s, 4 tons lrm ammo, an AC/5 w 2 tons ammo, xl 250 engine, TAG, 2 jumpjets, almost full armor. Its slow I know at 81 kph when tweaked. The thought is to lrm them and still have some ranged dakka to throw on top or to punch them as they move in on me. I figure im screwed against lights either way unless I ditch the whole lrm concept so who cares if Im slow as long as I can keep up with the herd.

The more serious lrm boat of course is the 2D2, Im aware the meta build is 4 lrm 5s, and the biggest engine you can cram in and still fit an ER PPC or an ER Large.

I changed mine a little bit to make it my own and give it more lrm punch to get through AMS while maintaining that annoying constant stream-effect. So I did; 2 Lrm 5, 2 lrm 10, 6 tons of ammo, xl 280, engine, 1 ER Large Laser, 2 jumpjets, TAG laser, 336 armor, and shoved all the ammo in a torso and used CASE. I decided to forgo BAP and just use Advanced Target Decay and Sensor range modules to make up for it. Is that an OK sacrifice or is BAP a must-have for even a mini lrm boat? I figure at 91 kph I should be fast enough to relocate quickly enough.

However, I COULD, go with three lrm 5s , one lrm 10, drop one ton of ammo, and suddenly I have 4 tons to play with that could be used on an XL-300, BAP or AMS, and max out my armor. OR, I could use that 4 tons for XL-300, half-ton of armor, and upgrade the ER Large to either a PPC or a large pulse laser. Its a tough call. What do some of you think?

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 10 January 2014 - 02:04 AM.

[Sandra McCrow]

To start with the word you are looking for is "Artemis"...

I don't run Shadowhwaks - I am not a fun of AC mediums, and for the rest I have griffin that runs better all around.
So minor points are also: you can drop head armour down to 5-6 and forget about it. Same goes for legs/arms - total 4 points and together with the head you've got 0.5 ton free.
Now CASE is useless with XL engine unless you put it in the arms or legs. Side/Center torso explosion will kill you anyway. That's another half a ton.

What I would think next is how exactly you are going to use your mech. I may be very wrong here, but weapons like PPC do not work well for me with LMRs - they both require different positioning and shooting style. I simply forget to use one or the other. So this is an issue I would like to hear opinions on myself. What weapons should one use with LMRs? And should you be thinking a primary weapon like PPC or a backup like ML?

I've tried ALMR30 griffin with a ERPPC and have found it a waste of tonnage on two primary weapons. At least I am not good in combining them efficiently just yet. So I would advise not to try it in the beginning, drop it and have your 7 tons to play with. 2D2 wants in additional energy points, but hey you've got the wretched ac5 already.

Lastly I will quote (I think from the LMR commandments topic): "LMRs are to kill, not to support". My griffins and kto18 second this.

Good luck!

Edited by Sandro Mc, 10 January 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Shadow Hawk LRM Skirmisher

The only LRM boat better is the Griffin, by a hair. Absolutely the best way to run LRMs is on jumping mediums, and the 55 tonners own the field with them. With this setup you will outright destroy assault LRM mechs because you are fast enough to evade them, and accurate enough to core them like crazy with the TAG+Artemis.

Highly, highly recommended if you're looking into LRMs.

This is a guide to LRMs I wrote:
http://mwomercs.com/...m-commandments/

The Shadow Hawk is a perfect fit for it. Give it a read; it covers a few mistakes you made such as dropping BAP, and why that's a bad idea (primarily for ECM countering), etc.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 January 2014 - 03:14 AM.

[Rando Slim]

Thanks for taking time to reply guys. I gues this all is going to sound very defesnive but let me explain some of my un-logic. The reason I dont have Artemis on there right now is because then I cant fit any kind of a backup weapon which I dont like, it also means I cant use the missile slot in the head. I have decided I agree with you Sandro and will stick with the ER Large as I am more accurate with it, its cooler than a ppc, and I have little problem finding use for it now that I've switched to a 5 button mouse. I still want to know what good BAP really does on a lrm boat because Im not going to waste missiles shooting at Spiders and I can use the Laser on a DDC or just move around and find something else to hit (and yes I did read your guide Victor). Again thats tonnage that ompletely kills any hope of a backup weapon when combined with Artemis. I also feel the combo of TAG, Adv Target decay and sensor range booster modules collectively do the job of BAP. I apologize Victor if it seems Im arguing with you as you have much more experience at this type of thing, I just have to have a backup weapon with some range as dictated to me by my drop commanders in my unit, we're trying to make a new doctrine for our company.

I should note that 2 jumpjets is necessary for maps like canyon network, so for me personally thats a must in addition to a large laser. I do kinda like the idea of just having 2 lrm 15s though......and I mean I WANT to put Artemis on there, its just a really tight fit when trying to maintain an alpha of at least 25-30 missiles (which I also totally agree with) and a large laser, and 2 jumpjets. In quick regard to armor, I have to keep max armor in my arm with the ER large in it.

Ill admit Im unsure how ammo explosions really occur, are they a result of random chance any time a component gets hit? Does it only occur when armor is stripped away leaving internal hp? I dont know, but I do know that I died several times from ammo explosions in the legs carrying up left over damage to my torso and killing me instantly when my torsos were not stripped yet. Plus, if I have to carry more than 4 tons of ammo anyway its not all gonna fit in the legs and then I have to put some in a side torso anyway, in which case an ammo explosion insta kills me even before my armor is all gone in a side torso, so I think for a lrm-boat CASE is a good idea, but maybe I just am wrong about how ammo explsions occur. Again im not meaning to be argumentative, its just the build you posted kinda surprised me at having no backup weapon or jumpjets. And unfortunately I dont have Griffons or Wolverines. Its either the Treb or the Hawk for me.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 10 January 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Sandra McCrow]

Oh that's a late reply I am sorry.
BAP helps not when you are shooting spiders but rather when you are shooting "that-almost-cored-atlas" and a bloody ECM light runs by and you lose your lock on a distant target a second before your missiles connect. I don't always run BAP on my griffins but it does help not to waste ammo and deliver. And a good ecm light will have it as a priority task to park 100m behind a solid LMR boat and kill her day.

[mogs01gt]

Dont Trebs make better LRM boats?

[Prawfutt]

BAP is not for targeting that ECM spider, it is for BREAKING his ECM so you CAN target that DDC that is 500m out.

TAG only works when you yourself are NOT under ECM, BAP is for breaking ECM that you are under.
Even if you use TAG on that DDC while the ECM spider is close to you, you will not be able to lock on to the DDC because the ECM spider is breaking your targeting. That is what BAP fixes.

As Sandro said. an ECM light parked 100m behind you is going to RUIN your day if you do not pack BAP. as for adv sensor range it stacks with BAP. and ADV Target Decay is a must for LRM boat.

EDIT: to remain on topic.

My personal play style is speed LRM boats. I prefer the KTO-18 "Painbow" as we we call it in CJF.
5x LRM5 - 1440 ammo (8 tons)
TAG
1 MLAS
XL 325 (105kph with speed tweek)
BAP

I know in Victor's LRM commandments he says not to chain fire due to AMS. and 5 missiles into a tight packed group of mechs with 3-4 AMS is going to do nothing. this is true. However it is very simple to shoot one salvo and see where the ams is coming from then target the less protected mechs. Not all mechs run AMS even if they have the hardpoint for them. There is nothing more satisfying than making a rainbow of LRM 5 vollies into an atlas who decided two more tons of AC20 ammo was worth sacrificing his AMS

second reason is because LRM 5 do not need the benefit of Artemis when talking about grouping. (artimis will still speed up your time to lock so it is not a bad idea in any case) as far as hitting goes you will notice most missiles are going to be hitting CT.

and lastly, you will keep up with the group, and you have the speed to rejoin the group should you be separated... or to escape in one of those OHH {scrap} situations.

the 2D2 that Victor linked above looks like a great boat to me. I would prefer a bit more speed but again that is just pilot preference.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 16 January 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[mikelovskij]

Victor Morson, on 10 January 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

Shadow Hawk LRM Skirmisher

The only LRM boat better is the Griffin, by a hair. Absolutely the best way to run LRMs is on jumping mediums, and the 55 tonners own the field with them. With this setup you will outright destroy assault LRM mechs because you are fast enough to evade them, and accurate enough to core them like crazy with the TAG+Artemis.

Highly, highly recommended if you're looking into LRMs.

This is a guide to LRMs I wrote:
http://mwomercs.com/...m-commandments/

The Shadow Hawk is a perfect fit for it. Give it a read; it covers a few mistakes you made such as dropping BAP, and why that's a bad idea (primarily for ECM countering), etc.

Why lrm 15+10+5 instead of 2 lrm 15? Aren't the missiles already staggered in two groups?

[Residualshade]

i am usually not a big fan of boating so i typically forgo LRM support systems like artemis,tag, and bap and pick up other weapons. i guess i would best fall under the lrmishter style.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...954c3df93ad66b4

i usually fight at midranges where i can bring all my weapons to bear on a target. outputs a lot of damage for a medium. also chain firing the 5s gives good protection in 1v1 fights. 4 LRM 5s is definetly best for this style as it keeps the tonnage of the LRMs down and allows for chain fire cheese which is important if your fighting at closer ranges with your LRMS.

Edited by Residualshade, 16 January 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Too piggy back off Victor's version a bit...i'd actually go this way...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2161ce1decb3737

Drop the LRM 15 to an LRM 10 (The Shadow Hawk has two 10 Missile Tube hardpoints in that torso), and then drop Artemis. Since you are using smaller launcher Artemis doesn't do as much.

This lets you fit a second LRM 5 in your head. So now you have 2 10's and 2 5's. 7 tons of ammo should be enough.

Then you move from an XL 280 to a 300, and add in 3 Jump Jets and a Medium Laser so you have at least one defensive weapon.

The 2 LRM 10's and the 2 LRM 5's give you two ways to go. One is launch in a big alpha and the other is to shoot them in a stream. The stream sucks against AMS (always good to watch for it), but if no AMS is involved it's not only good for dealing damage, it disrupts the hell out of your target.

Advanced Decay and Advanced Sensor are both great modules to use as well.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 16 January 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Victor Morson]

mikelovskij, on 16 January 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Why lrm 15+10+5 instead of 2 lrm 15? Aren't the missiles already staggered in two groups?

With that layout, the 15 will trail a 5 in close proximity, but that's it; it comes in close enough that it won't have a problem with AMS. The 5 in the CT will come out fine, as will 20 missiles out of the side torso in the initial launch. It's a minor drawback (and why I say the Griffin is a tiny bit more suited to this.)

The main reason, however, is the DPS increase over 2x15.

If you're fighting someone without AMS, instead of waiting for the 15 to recycle and firing everything, you can just hold the fire button down and the increased fire rates from the 5/10 will add up a LOT of damage, very very rapidly.

Again, if the target has AMS, you're just feeding it missiles to little benefit, so you want to wait for that 15 every time then. But heaven help the 'mech that doesn't.

[Rando Slim]

Thanks again for the replies folks. Ive been bouncing back and forth between Treb-3c, 7m, and the 2d2. I like all three really. The trebs seem more suited to the big splat alpha, while the 2d2 more the chain fire approach. The build Nicholas Carlyle posted is the one most similar to what I started with. I really like the idea of the 2 5s and 2 10s, as like you said it allows you to annoy or do real damage. I felt like 4 5s is just weak. The modules I have no problem getting. Its gonna take some more experimenting to figure out what backup weapons I want. The large laser is nice to have to hurt a light or snipe at a target with AMS, but then it does hurt my ammo capacity. Ugh, the Trebs are easier to build. See I dont mind stopping to fight a light and go back to lrming. A Spider isnt gonna just CAMP there, any decent light pilot is moing constantly, and thier not gonna stay amidst an enemy group unless wolfpacking (in which they case they are usually Jenners and dont have ECM). Anyway, I do use BAP on my Trebs with either XL-255 or 265 engines and they work fine, its just hard for me to evaluate if its really helping as I dont notice any spiders sticking around to disrupt me for more than a few seconds, in which case I and my teammates shoot at them and they leave, and then I go back to missiles.

[Buckminster]

Here's a LRM Griffin build I've been running: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...75b76757b25b392

I know it's not a Hawk but I think a lot of the same theories could apply. The LRM10+5+5+5 gives you the flexibility, as others have said. TAG is a must - it not only helps you but gives you the XP bonus when others do the same. And I know people will say that 4 tons of ammo isn't enough, and that the large laser is too much weight, but the fact is it works. Using a single LRM5 against targets that are distant will push them in to cover with less ammo waste, and that large laser gives you a nice pinpoint punch that can be the final nail in the coffin.

As someone that drops as a solo PUGger, it works very well. It may not fit into the more competitive meta, but I'm not that player.

Edited by Buckminster, 18 January 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[Tesunie]

Buckminster, on 18 January 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

As someone that drops as a solo PUGger, it works very well. It may not fit into the more competitive meta, but I'm not that player.

Looks like an interesting build there.

And I, myself, am not that style of player either, so I know what you mean.

Personally, I've been mixing ACs and LRMs with my Shadowhawk and have found them to be rather good. I have a slow Shadowhawk with an AC20 and LRMs. It doesn't move fast, so you would have to know where to be on the battlefield, (among other designs).

I'd probably base your design on the ones already posted. TAG can be very useful, as well as Artemis, but you can run LRMs without it. BAP is to disable ECM that "gets to close", but if you don't care, then that too can be played without (many of my LRM mechs don't have them). In the end, it all comes down to what you want your mech to do and what you expect from your mech.

I can say, I use LRMs very differently from other people, in a different role, and with different strategies involved. Other people use theirs in another role, with different strategies and tactics involved. I know from previous history with Victor that he uses an LRM Skirmisher in a competitive manner. (I use my LRM mechs in PUG matches, in non-competitive manner/matches.)