46 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Let me start by saying, despite all the complaining I do about balance and game design, I do actually find MWO to be fun. While the battlemech vs battlemech combat is fun, the overall game lacks a feeling of progress and is absent a proper rewards system.

Here's my proposal for adding a proper rewards system to the game, without overly complicating things, aligning with Community Warfare, and taking the new skill progression system into account.

First we need a common marketplace where players can buy and sell battlemech parts. Battlemechs themselves should remain purchasable only through PGI (c-bills and/or MC). This allows players to set prices for items based on their desirability.

In matches give random components as salvage. PGI should set rareness levels for each item and find a good balance for rewarding winning and losing players. Both side should get some salvage for their effort, though the winning team should get significantly more.

Destroyed battlemechs should have some of their components permanently destroyed. This components would need to be replaced via personal stock piles of salvage parts or via the common market.

Given that a form of RnR would have returned, pilot should have the possibility of escaping combat when faced with impossible odds. Battlemechs which are out-of-bounds, shutdown, and not being damaged for five seconds should be assumed to have escaped and be removed from combat as-is.

Armor should not be part of this system. It should just be repaired at no cost to the play "as part of the contract". Ammo is also questionable, otherwise ammo consuming weapons have an active penalty. I have no opinion about modules and their inclusion.

Lastly, there should be a delay after combat while a battlemech is being repaired. This delay should be removable for a fee (in c-bills). The delay should be proportional to the amount of damage the battlemech received in combat and the fee to skip the delay should be proportional to the time being skipped. Once Community Warfare gets here, this will help simulate wars of attrition which are important factor in large sieges.

[Roadbeer]

I'm on board with about 99% of this. Good post.

[Sephlock]

Won't this utterly bork free players who can only have 4 mechs max, especially once the dropship mode is introduced?

[Zerberus]

^^ Aside from completely screwing over F2P players with their 4 mechbays, player driven economies in games lead to exactly one thing: Farming.

[Roadbeer]

Sephlock, on 16 January 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Won't this utterly bork free players who can only have 4 mechs max, especially once the dropship mode is introduced?

Not necessarily, if you make the repair time low (say 1 minute for 10% damage) the worst case scenario I've ever seen would be 8.5 - 9 minutes of repair time, just launch in another mech while it's being repaired.
Have trial mechs instant repaired since you don't technically own them as they are an asset of your faction/employer.

[Sephlock]

Zerberus, on 16 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

^^ Aside from completely screwing over F2P players with their 4 mechbays, player driven economies in games lead to exactly one thing: Farming.

Also, the most evil, ruinous, dumbest, and un-fun idea ever: crafting.

Hey guys, you know what's even better than grinding a kajillion years for this weapon? Grinding a kajillion years for ONE TENTH OF THAT WEAPON, which does precisely nothing until you have all the other pieces AND forge them into one!

And naturally the odds of getting the pieces of the item will increase exponentially as you collect them, with first pieces being insanely common and last pieces being so rare that there is no chance you will ever so much as see one in your lifetime.

Roadbeer, on 16 January 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Not necessarily, if you make the repair time low (say 1 minute for 10% damage) the worst case scenario I've ever seen would be 8.5 - 9 minutes of repair time, just launch in another mech while it's being repaired.
Have trial mechs instant repaired since you don't technically own them as they are an asset of your faction/employer.

I would support this if they made enough Champion mechs to completely replace all of the dumb stock loadouts, since those just get noobs massacred.

[Prawfutt]

100% agree. Posted a similar idea a while ago.
http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry2759330

Sephlock, on 16 January 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Also, the most evil, ruinous, dumbest, and un-fun idea ever: crafting.

Hey guys, you know what's even better than grinding a kajillion years for this weapon? Grinding a kajillion years for ONE TENTH OF THAT WEAPON, which does precisely nothing until you have all the other pieces AND forge them into one!

Sorry, wrong. You may still grind a Kajillion years nobody is stopping you. It may even reduce your time some because you can sell that one tenth of a weapon to someone who wants it.

the idea of an economy DOES NOT BREAK THE GAME.
it also does not do anything to force you to change the way you currently play.

[focuspark]

Prawfut Bludskin, on 16 January 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

100% agree. Posted a similar idea a while ago.
http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry2759330

Neat. I'm specifically attempting to not tie what was done on the battlefield to what is salvaged. Reason: pure dev controlled drop rates allow the devs to better control the weapons in circulation. Ideally drops would be personal, and not part of a bidding process. The number and value of drops could be based on the same criteria C-Bill awards are based on today.

[MadcatX]

The delay would force me to buy a second C1 in case the founder's cat gets blown out of the sky.

Other then that, not bad at all.

[focuspark]

Zerberus, on 16 January 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

^^ Aside from completely screwing over F2P players with their 4 mechbays, player driven economies in games lead to exactly one thing: Farming.

As Roadbeer pointed out, if the down time is < 15 minutes is should be fine. We're not talking hours or days here. Let's assume a worst case of a completely pummeled then destroyed Atlas taking 30 min to recover at no cost. Then you can quickly see how for most case people only need to skip a match or two before coming back to their original battlemech.

AND F2P players have C-bills to pay for immediate repairs if they need their battlemech back immediately.

There's always the demo battlemechs as well, which should not be impacted by this system.

Sephlock, on 16 January 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Also, the most evil, ruinous, dumbest, and un-fun idea ever: crafting.

Hey guys, you know what's even better than grinding a kajillion years for this weapon? Grinding a kajillion years for ONE TENTH OF THAT WEAPON, which does precisely nothing until you have all the other pieces AND forge them into one!

And naturally the odds of getting the pieces of the item will increase exponentially as you collect them, with first pieces being insanely common and last pieces being so rare that there is no chance you will ever so much as see one in your lifetime.

I would support this if they made enough Champion mechs to completely replace all of the dumb stock loadouts, since those just get noobs massacred.

Nobody said anything about crafting. We're playing MechWarrior Online, not Engineer Online. Crafting should be left at the door (then smashed, burned, and forgotten).

MadcatX, on 16 January 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

The delay would force me to buy a second C1 in case the founder's cat gets blown out of the sky.

Other then that, not bad at all.

Which is exactly the C-Bill sink I'm hoping to create. Also, your Founders gets a 25% C-bill bonus, the reduced C-bill income on the standard variant helps reduce the ridiculous C-bill accounts some senior guys have built up.

[Bagheera]

Drop rates, crafting, player driven pricing? No thanks.

The last thing this game needs is the inevitable inflation this brings. Want to buy that ER-PPC fully crafted instead of grinding all the pieces? 25million C-bills please.

Ugh.

Repair ideas are interesting, taken outside the rest of the OP.

Edited by Bagheera, 16 January 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[focuspark]

Sephlock, on 16 January 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Won't this utterly bork free players who can only have 4 mechs max, especially once the dropship mode is introduced?

We don't know. Dropship mode has been theory and speculation for a very long time now.

There's always the Trial 'Mechs.

Bagheera, on 16 January 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Drop rates, crafting, player driven pricing? No thanks.

The last thing this game needs is the inevitable inflation this brings. Want to buy that ER-PPC fully crafted instead of grinding all the pieces? 25million C-bills please.

Ugh.

WTF?! Who said crafting?!! This isn't World of Crafting... it's MechWarrior Online. MechWarriors don't craft, we pilot giant stompy robot tanks!

I'm suggesting full weapon drops. Which does mean maybe you need to go purchase one from the market because you didn't get one as a drop, but maybe you can sell that unused AC20 you've got lying around as well. The point is the player base gets to set the prices via standard market mechanics.

[Bagheera]

A couple of folks up thread mentioned it. Even without it, still no. The inflation point is valid either way, and is only one of many reasons to avoid an MMO style economy in a game that is not an MMO.

[MadcatX]

** For Sale **
1 Autocannon 20
12 rounds of Autocannon 20 ammo

Slightly used. The ammo feed sometimes jams.
500 c-bills OBH

[Zerberus]

Then again, without crafting or other "epics", where is the point of having a player driven economy at all?

It`s not like any weapon in the game costs millions of c-bills, and "dropping" chassis is no go because F2P players can`t loot them when tehy have 4 full (clear P2W argument even if not functionally P2W)... so all it would really do is make it possible to buy weapons and modules a bit cheaper and sell them for a bit more than half price... and I assume you`d still have to unlock the module before you can use it if it`s an upgraded one, so the grind reduction is effectively zero.

So where is this major benefit of setting the prices? OMG, I have to play 1 round less to buy an AC/20. Wow.... that`s almost negligible

A huge database, lots of server overhead, and for what? So space-poors can afford a third ton of ammo before they can finally afford the launcher?

Edited by Zerberus, 16 January 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[Grickshaft]

i agree with this, i think there should be blueprints that drop and you could possibly craft a mech if you gather the parts...IE torsos, Legs, arms, actuators, Head

people like getting rare drops of certain things, it also drives them to play more and more

blow it out!!!!

World of MechwarriorCraft

get some economy system going

also, Inflation also deals with gold farmers and such is that, there is not a problem of that here, since there is no way to xfer cbills

[focuspark]

Bagheera, on 16 January 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

A couple of folks up thread mentioned it. Even without it, still no. The inflation point is valid either way, and is only one of many reasons to avoid an MMO style economy in a game that is not an MMO.

Inflation only happens when the amount of currency in circulation accumulates because there's no place to spend it. Today we have massive deflation instead. Players build massive stacks of C-bills with absolutely nothing to do with them. The cost of weapons, upgrades, even battlemechs become negligible.

With a centralized market, this becomes a MMO immediately. Also, please keep in mind CW and what that'll mean. This is an idea to feed into CW and make it meaningful.

Once you have a working economy, you can have a reason to fight in CW. Planet ownership could mean the controllers get certain items generated constantly, or an amount of C-bills deposited in their accounts periodically. Now suddenly, planet control matters and there's a good reason to fight.

Either way, inflation scares are a strawman argument. EVE Online continually proves that inflation doesn't have to happen so long as the devs are smart and pay attention.

Zerberus, on 16 January 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Then again, without crafting or other "epics", where is the point of having a player driven economy at all?

It`s not like any weapon in the game costs millions of c-bills, and "dropping" chassis is no go because F2P players can`t loot them when tehy have 4 full (clear P2W argument even if not functionally P2W)... so all it would really do is make it possible to buy weapons and modules a bit cheaper and sell them for a bit more than half price... and I assume you`d still have to unlock the module before you can use it if it`s an upgraded one, so the grind reduction is effectively zero.

So where is this major benefit of setting the prices? OMG, I have to play 1 round less to buy an AC/20. Wow.... that`s almost negligible

A huge database, lots of server overhead, and for what? So space-poors can afford a third ton of ammo before they can finally afford the launcher?

Epics are not needed: see EVE Online for an economy without crafted "epics" done right. What's the benefit of dynamic prices? It'll be the fuel behind CW and give a solid reason to fight for certain resources.

[Zerberus]

Grickshaft, on 16 January 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

also, Inflation also deals with gold farmers and such is that, there is not a problem of that here, since there is no way to xfer cbills

No way to transfrer c-bills??

LOL? That`s the entire point of a player driven economy.

And the Farmers are one of the primary causes of inflation in MMOs with a free market... because they farm to the point where nobody else can acquire the items reasonably, then sell them at a premium in the AH, driving up the price, making the sale of ingame currency or power leveling services more enticing... this in turn enables them to earn real money. And the more it happens, the more people take advantage of it, and the more often people get their accounts hacked as a result of their own impatiernce and desire to "lessen teh grind"

I`m sorry, but IMO anybody that does not understand this most basic of industry guidelines that has been accepted and heeded by every MMO developer since WoW left closed Beta has absolutely no purpose discussing the benefits and detriments of player driven economies. Just like I don`t discuss Astrophilosophy with people who can`t grasp classic philosophy, because you have to understand and accept the basics to even start to grasp the advanced material.

focuspark, on 16 January 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Epics are not needed: see EVE Online for an economy without crafted "epics" done right. What's the benefit of dynamic prices? It'll be the fuel behind CW and give a solid reason to fight for certain resources.

But this only works when the resources themselves are of interest.

However, the only resource that interests us is c-Bills (or MC, or maybe some day loyalty points)

This would entail introducing a fourth, entirely new resource to the game, and somehow making it valuable....

I feel that other things are not only much more pressing, but much more likely to happen....

Edited by Zerberus, 16 January 2014 - 04:17 PM.

[Sephlock]

focuspark, on 16 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Which is exactly the C-Bill sink I'm hoping to create. Also, your Founders gets a 25% C-bill bonus, the reduced C-bill income on the standard variant helps reduce the ridiculous C-bill accounts some senior guys have built up.

While screwing over the rest of us! Brilliant!

[Sephlock]

focuspark, on 16 January 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

We don't know. Dropship mode has been theory and speculation for a very long time now.

There's always the Trial 'Mechs.

Quote

I'm suggesting full weapon drops. Which does mean maybe you need to go purchase one from the market because you didn't get one as a drop, but maybe you can sell that unused AC20 you've got lying around as well. The point is the player base gets to set the prices via standard market mechanics.

Thus ensuring that even if a noob DOES know that PPCs are dominant, he won't be able to afford them! Meanwhile, those of us with cash to spare will have ppcs on all of our mechs (One of each variant, including heroes).