91 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Some of us get dragged into the Pit of Twitchmunchies known as Skirmish by teammates who want a variety or see it as a challenge and really don't want to be there. I've had people try to tell me "The players there are better!" or "You can focus on pure tactics!" as a way of trying to make me feel good about this mode.

Horse hockey.

There is tactics on every level. Small unit and individual tactics.
There is no STRATEGY in Skrmish other than KILL KILL KILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!!!!!!!!1!!1!!!
No strategy = BORRRRRINGGGG.
The pilots here are not better or worse than any other level, just more of them lacking in strategic thinking.

So when I get pug stomped because the matchmaker crapped out another 10-2 assault overmatch with a pair of premade groups doing lance practice who've blown my team apart in 4 minutes leaving me alive and able to shut down and make em hunt me... I have zero problem doing that and watching the QQ roll down their cheeks. I sit back and laugh and screenshot all the profanity and agro if it violates language TOS or someone Ghosts me. They find me, fine. Kill me. I'm not going to bother fighting back because by this time I've gone AFK doing something else that was fun till the next match is possible.

You don't want a player like me in skirmish and I don't want to be there. Want to solve that, get PGI to get the mode check list done so I can choose between the only two modes worth playing at this point: Assault or Conquest where you have to have real strategic thinking and awareness of a goal beyond doing damage. You've only yourself to blame for forcing this issue for a mode which makes players have no non-combat point of victory, thereby preventing you from ending that farce of hiding and waiting by demanding this mode.

Engage the rage at this unpopular opinion in 3...2...1...

[Roland]

Kjudoon, on 18 January 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

There is tactics on every level. Small unit and individual tactics.
There is no STRATEGY in Skrmish other than KILL KILL KILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!!!!!!!!1!!1!!!
No strategy = BORRRRRINGGGG.
The pilots here are not better or worse than any other level, just more of them lacking in strategic thinking.

"Eliminate the enemy force" is not the strategy. It's the goal.
The strategy comes in deciding how best to achieve that goal through maneuvering on the battlefield.

You seem to trivialize the combat in mechwarrior, despite it being the central focus of the game.... I suspect that elimination of the enemy force isn't actually something which you are able to do with such regularity that you don't even need to think about it.

[Kjudoon]

Roland, on 18 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

"Eliminate the enemy force" is not the strategy. It's the goal.
The strategy comes in deciding how best to achieve that goal through maneuvering on the battlefield.

You seem to trivialize the combat in mechwarrior, despite it being the central focus of the game.... I suspect that elimination of the enemy force isn't actually something which you are able to do with such regularity that you don't even need to think about it.

I am not a fan of Kobayashi Maru play and do not feel obligated to participate and throw my life/mech/game away in hopeless causes. If I had a 'retreat' option, I'd have used it, and come back to fight another day.

Give me a retreat option where I can not be penalized for quitting battle early, I'd use it once I saw an 11-0 stomp going on. Why should I suffer the indignity of being blown up when I should be allowed to cede the battlefield to the obvious victor?

If that offends you, honestly, I don't care. Your POV that I must not think this way offends me.

[Roland]

Kjudoon, on 18 January 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

I am not a fan of Kobayashi Maru play and do not feel obligated to participate and throw my life/mech/game away in hopeless causes. If I had a 'retreat' option, I'd have used it, and come back to fight another day.

Give me a retreat option where I can not be penalized for quitting battle early, I'd use it once I saw an 11-0 stomp going on. Why should I suffer the indignity of being blown up when I should be allowed to cede the battlefield to the obvious victor?

If that offends you, honestly, I don't care. Your POV that I must not think this way offends me.

Since you lose absolutely nothing when you die in this game, I'm curious as to why you care.

I mean, if your mech is destroyed and your team loses, or you "retreat" and your team loses, the outcome is exactly the same in every way.

[Kjudoon]

Roland, on 18 January 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Since you lose absolutely nothing when you die in this game, I'm curious as to why you care.

I mean, if your mech is destroyed and your team loses, or you "retreat" and your team loses, the outcome is exactly the same in every way.

Consider it being immersive in the game and my character (yes I do have a backstory et all) and actually playing like I'm there to a lesser or greater degree, not just a blob of pixels with no meaning. It's a style of play I've developed over the years having more meaning than just the old school, "I died and so I erase the name at the top of the page and play my character's twin brother" meme that so many munchkins do in TTRPGs because they don't care about story, but rolling dice. It's the one thing I do regret about all MW products from the RPG books forward: Zero story playing outside of the mech even though it's embroidered all around the game, no one ever seems to truely play it.

As a game mechanic, I'm preparing for community warfare when rearm/repair costs return, and as I do run in some periphery based CW since the ingame isn't ready yet, getting your mech destroyed means losing C-Bills in that game too. Rules in that game provide a cap win as the #1 success. You win, get all this money and resources and lose none of yours.

So when I get stuck in Skirmish... I'm going to keep playing in this manner for my own personal satisfaction.

[Roland]

Quote

Consider it being immersive in the game and my character (yes I do have a backstory et all) and actually playing like I'm there to a lesser or greater degree, not just a blob of pixels with no meaning.

So it's just your imagination.
In that case, you can just run out of bounds and imagine that you retreated.
Problem solved.

Quote

So when I get stuck in Skirmish... I'm going to keep playing in this manner for my own personal satisfaction.

It sounds kind of like you really hate Skirmish, and are just making an excuse to try and ruin it for other players.

[Kjudoon]

Roland, on 18 January 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

So it's just your imagination.
In that case, you can just run out of bounds and imagine that you retreated.
Problem solved.


It sounds kind of like you really hate Skirmish, and are just making an excuse to try and ruin it for other players.

Run out of bounds, you get zero C-Bills, Zero XP. Not a viable option when I spend time fighting and end up last man standing and face a hopeless cause. On Assault, I go hide in a corner and let them cap out. Done. I'm not doing anything different here. I would love to be able to run out of bounds after a hard fight, but not if I'm going to be penalized for refusing to stoke the ego of others by being their whipping boy. That's messed up in my book.

Trying to ruin the game for other players? No. I play the game the same in every mode, only the strategy (which doesn't exist in Skrmish) changes. The fact that all the skirmishers go all QQ over the hiding mech fills me with no small amount of satisfaction when for months you were warned this would happen and we were ignored/mocked for pointing it out.

And yes, I use my imagination and empathy in the game. It's what I do, how I enjoy it and think it provides a much better experience. If you don't fine, just don't be successful demanding I play like you.

[Roland]

Sorry dude, sounds like you're just bitter and hate Skirmish, and you really want other folks to hate it too... but they don't, and that makes you mad.

Honestly, to me it doesn't even matter. I've only seen a guy do what you do once, and folks found him and killed him anyway.

[Kjudoon]

Roland, on 18 January 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Sorry dude, sounds like you're just bitter and hate Skirmish, and you really want other folks to hate it too... but they don't, and that makes you mad.

Honestly, to me it doesn't even matter. I've only seen a guy do what you do once, and folks found him and killed him anyway.

Your personal assessment of me and free opinion are duely noted. Incorrect, but duely noted. If this doesn't matter so much to you, why even comment to me at all? I'm just seeing my predictions come true both of this thread and the gamemode.

There is one brilliant thing about Skirmish mode. It has made Assault mode SOOOOO much better.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 January 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[Eximar]

If I'm the last one left in a Skirmish game, I will be looking hard for a solo to kill, without running into the zerg. People will be typing "die with honor" but dying to save them time isn't on my agenda. Disconnect or deal with it.

[Roland]

Eximar, on 18 January 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

If I'm the last one left in a Skirmish game, I will be looking hard for a solo to kill, without running into the zerg. People will be typing "die with honor" but dying to save them time isn't on my agenda. Disconnect or deal with it.

This is the proper way to be the last mech standing... because if you're good, there's a good chance you can get at least one more kill... I've seen a lone mech kill 5 mechs on his own.

The only complaints you'll see from me are about folks who just hide, because it's just a waste of everyone's time for absolutely no benefit to anyone, not even the guy hiding.

[StaIker]

What skirmish does, is reveal the weakness in each players tactical understanding. When you can win a game by methods other than combat then it's easy to convince yourself that you are a winner, that you're better than average and that you "get" MWO. When the ONLY way to win is through combat, then you have to have the full package of skills, from an understanding of weapons and design, how to organise and play effectively within a team and also of course, how to out-think and out-fight the enemy on an individual basis. A lot of egos get damaged when folks are put to the test in combat, having formerly convinced themselves that they are good players the sudden discovery that they aren't all that special comes as a rude shock.

Complaining inevitably follows.

[G0SSY]

For all of 4 or 5 minutes, because that's how long most skirmishes I've played last in pubs.

It's no less a TDM than any other FPS on the market, 24 people throw themselves against each other in a blob and hope that your team can damage the other faster, and sometimes there is a few lights left over to clean up afterwards.
The trouble with the mode is it is over before real battle tactics can be implemented, such as flanking, retreats and pincer maneuvers.The moment your team breaks up into lances is when your team loses.

One lance can break off and try to flank, but any more than that and you are being "too" tactical, simply because the fights are so damn quick. Blink and half your team is dead before your flanking lance can make it back into the fight.

This is why they complain, because they are annoyed that their 4 minute battle is now 10 minutes instead.

[StaIker]

One of the issues here is that it takes a long, long time to become tactically proficient. Not days or weeks, but many months or even years. What people conceive of as "tactics" after a month or two of play is nothing of the sort, it is just the very beginning of an understanding starting to evolve. Skirmish is a new game mode and it will take some considerable time for the regular players to try the multitude of competing ideas in combat and slowly cull the ones that don't work.

What is most often meant by "there are no tactics in pure combat etc etc" is that the writer doesn't recognise or understand the tactics involved. It is the same as a novice stating that there is no skill in winning chess, you just move the pieces in a predictable way, the same way every time. To a novice, that's how it appears. It's the same lack of understanding at work here too.

Edited by StaIker, 18 January 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Jay Kerensky]

Zerberus, on 18 January 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Yes, that is exactly the point, you have absolutely none of the information needed to make a qualified statement such as


Good to see that at least some people are capable of learning from their mistakes, even if they don`t realize it and prefer to post an arrogant non-rebuttal as a result.

Arrogant? Hello? Pot calling Kettle, come in please!

Personally I thought it was more conciallatory than inflamatory, but you're correct in that since I have read more of your posts on skirmish mode, I can see that (now get this bit - not arrogant here..) I...was....wrong - and you do have an informed opinion on the subject. Still you post a few lines calling people crybabies and you have to expect some stick back.

I'll let slide the 'reading comprehension' and 'lack of oxygen' comments apart from saying if you're going to take the moral high ground in an argument, lose the personal attacks, they don't help. The entire 'you have no idea' bit, that's got you so wound up was based on the emotive and derogatory language from your original three line comment. What the hell else are people going to base comments on? You think I'm going to go research player stats and other posts just in case they may have an informed opinion somewhere else? Not likely.

Have a nice day, now

[GRiPSViGiL]

Lukoi, on 18 January 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Not that I disagree with the substance here but Egomane does not represent PGI outside being a forum moderator right? His words are not the gospel of the matter. If a PGI rep says the same I would consider it a truly clarified issue. Until then it is just one more interpretation of a somewhat contentious point.

Wut?

So you think they let Mods say things on their own accord without some sort of checks and balances? I'll bet my account it is backed "officially" by PGI's stance.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 19 January 2014 - 12:47 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

because people are to stupid to udnerstand they can leave the game at any time.

and because ther eis no option to surrender or retreat or vote to end match when it is 12v1 at the end.

[Jay Kerensky]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 January 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

because people are to stupid to udnerstand they can leave the game at any time.

and because ther eis no option to surrender or retreat or vote to end match when it is 12v1 at the end.

You know what Irony is, Baldrick?

Yeah - it's sort of like brassy, only made out of iron.

[Abivard]

GRiPSViGiL, on 17 January 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

It actually is not reportable as long as they initially engaged in combat. it does not fall under non-participation either.

Egomane - has cleared this issue up by saying "So if you run and hide without ever engaging, that is non-participation. If you fight to the best of your abilites and hide when there is no way for you to win anymore, that is perfectly fine." in this thread.

Egomane needs a lesson in reading comprehension, It specifically states :

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

the second and last sentence state it clearly, no where does it say if you made an effort and then stop it is ok, the last sentence points out that guarding YOUR cap with an armorless, non moving mech is even a violation.

Is skirmish mode's spirit to avoid combat? no!
The spirit entails fighting til the death, only one team should be standing, all should be trying to fight until the time runs out. Running off and powering down is clearly in violation.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Abivard, on 19 January 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

Egomane needs a lesson in reading comprehension, It specifically states :

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

the second and last sentence state it clearly, no where does it say if you made an effort and then stop it is ok, the last sentence points out that guarding YOUR cap with an armorless, non moving mech is even a violation.

Is skirmish mode's spirit to avoid combat? no!
The spirit entails fighting til the death, only one team should be standing, all should be trying to fight until the time runs out. Running off and powering down is clearly in violation.

I think he comprehends just fine since PGI allows him to speak for them. Doesn't matter what you think is right or wrong IT IS OKAY TO HIDE AFTER ENGAGING. So enjoy your wait time when someone does.