1911 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Heffay, on 14 August 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Which is more useful? An LRM Stalker in River City, or an LRM Stalker on Caustic?

Which would you rather have on your team? The 2000 Elo pilot in an LRM Stalker in River City, or the 1000 Elo pilot in an LRM Stalker in Caustic?

Battle Value is an unnecessarily complex and gameable method of creating matches that end up being far worse than Elo.

Gameable how? Your examples would be the exact same if weight class (or tonnage) was used instead of Battle Value... They are not about skill or maps - they are about the battle value of that gear/mech.

A 400hp car has 400hp, regardless of what map or driver is in it. Regardless of their Elo (driving skill) or map (road), that 400hp is exactly the same. It is the implementation of that 400hp that then makes the difference, just like the implementation of an assault or light makes the difference.

[Heffay]

Cimarb, on 14 August 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Gameable how? Your examples would be the exact same if weight class (or tonnage) was used instead of Battle Value... They are not about skill or maps - they are about the battle value of that gear/mech. A 400hp car has 400hp, regardless of what map or driver is in it. Regardless of their Elo (driving skill) or map (road), that 400hp is exactly the same. It is the implementation of that 400hp that then makes the difference, just like the implementation of an assault or light makes the difference.

The ways it can be gamed has been discussed in great detail already.

And in the name of balance, if everything is just as valuable as every other item, what is the need for BV? If that Jenner is just as valuable as that Atlas (which should be the goal), what good does it do to have a BV system?

Edited by Heffay, 14 August 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Gyrok]

Heffay, on 14 August 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

The ways it can be gamed has been discussed in great detail already.

And in the name of balance, if everything is just as valuable as every other item, what is the need for BV? If that Jenner is just as valuable as that Atlas (which should be the goal), what good does it do to have a BV system?

Why should a Jenner be as valuable as an Atlas...?

That should never be the goal...there should be some frailty to lighter mechs, and they should be able to do roles that other mechs cannot, like scout, etc. However, I think it is pretty clear that losing a light mech in the grander scheme of things should hurt far less than a 100T Assault mech...or even a 50T mech.

If you think otherwise, so be it...but that is not BattleTech.

[Cimarb]

Heffay, on 14 August 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

The ways it can be gamed has been discussed in great detail already.

And in the name of balance, if everything is just as valuable as every other item, what is the need for BV? If that Jenner is just as valuable as that Atlas (which should be the goal), what good does it do to have a BV system?

You do not know how Battle Value even works, do you?

A Jenner is worth 875 in BV2.0
An Atlas is worth 1,897 in BV2.0

They are no where near the same, which is the point, not making a light and assault just as valuable. Just like how weight class matters and tonnage matters.

Now, can a skilled Jenner pilot kill a bad Atlas pilot? Yes, most definitely. That is why Elo still matters.

Battle Value uses all of the components of the chassis, from weapons to engine size and heat sinks. There is actually one made for MWO, as a matter of fact, by paxmortis, here. It is pretty well thought out.

[Void Angel]

I wonder how long it's going to take Karl to slog through all the tired, rehashed arguments about things that are not a "question for Karl Berg," if he finds the time to start answering the thread again - hopefully he'll just pick up wherever the end of the thread is...

[Cimarb]

I hope someone just cleans the thread up and only leaves the questions and his responses, instead of all the armchair dev responses everyone (including me) leaves in his absensce.

[Goose]

Shlkt, on 14 August 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

1) Chassis modifiers would hide …

TheCaptainJZ, on 14 August 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

If there was a chassis modifier…

Not asking for a modifier; Asking for a lot moar Elos' to be tracked.

I am, in fact, worried how a change to ECM would wang Mr. Bergs firm-coded numbers for team size.

Modo44, on 14 August 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

A battle value system can help with tracking more Elo values.

But: No; Writing a new BV system to reflect this games' rules negates the point of bringing up BV; Having an Elo per 'Mech bypasses all the hemming and hawing about which chassis is inatlley better then each other … And would properly remove the gunnery skill variable.

There's much to be said regarding BV in TT, but it's all of questionable relevance to MW:O …

Edited by Goose, 15 August 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[Modo44]

Goose, on 15 August 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

But: No;

Read the entire ******* paragraph before responding. Seriously, read it.

[Goose]

Still nothing there: Sorry …

[Tekadept]

Without Karl replying this thread seems kinda pointless now

[shellashock]

Tekadept, on 19 August 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Without Karl replying this thread seems kinda pointless now

He's probably so busy trying to get these server desync's under control with PGI's network team that he doesn't have enough time to reply to everyone yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he is keeping an eye on this when he can, but he is likely just too busy to talk right now. I would appreciate if he came here and reported that he is just too busy to reply right now though.

When he does come back, I want to know if he can ask Bryan how the Oxide rework is going and if they have decided internally what to do with it. It's been months since we heard anything about it.

[Gizmoh]

I'd like to know more about the nature of the network fixes, should be an interesting read.

[shellashock]

Gizmoh, on 20 August 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

I'd like to know more about the nature of the network fixes, should be an interesting read.

Me too, but I wouldn't be too surprised if Karl won't be able to go into too much detail about it because of his NDA. Here's hoping though.

[Karl Berg]

shellashock, on 20 August 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

He's probably so busy trying to get these server desync's under control with PGI's network team that he doesn't have enough time to reply to everyone yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he is keeping an eye on this when he can, but he is likely just too busy to talk right now. I would appreciate if he came here and reported that he is just too busy to reply right now though.

When he does come back, I want to know if he can ask Bryan how the Oxide rework is going and if they have decided internally what to do with it. It's been months since we heard anything about it.

Yup, very sorry all, but I've been in crunch for the last several weeks; mostly due to Matchmaker maintenance, CW phase 1, and the new data center provisioning and setup. I've been attempting to keep up with reading all of your replies in the meantime.

[Void Angel]

Hey, you're not dead!

[Dimento Graven]

Karl Berg, on 24 August 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Yup, very sorry all, but I've been in crunch for the last several weeks; mostly due to Matchmaker maintenance, CW phase 1, and the new data center provisioning and setup. I've been attempting to keep up with reading all of your replies in the meantime.

Dude, dude, dude, DUUUUUUUUUDE...

Be honest now... Y'all made a change to the solo queue MM just prior to this last challenge didn't you?

Admit it! C'mon... My experiences the week prior vs. the experiences from Friday onwards have been, let's put this... politically correct... "night and day".

So what'd PGI do? Did they add to everyone's ELO? Or did they take certain people and subtract from their ELO? SOMETHING is different, I've never had this sort of 'experience' be so 'consistent'...

Going from an 'at worst' 50/50 W/L ratio after 7 hours of play to a 1/10 W/L ratio after 7 hours of play, and the only discernible difference is the challenge...

C'mon, admit it, you poured sugar into the gas tank of the MM engine, didn't you?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 August 2014 - 11:35 PM.

[p4r4g0n]

Karl Berg, on 24 August 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Yup, very sorry all, but I've been in crunch for the last several weeks; mostly due to Matchmaker maintenance, CW phase 1, and the new data center provisioning and setup. I've been attempting to keep up with reading all of your replies in the meantime.

Glad to hear from you, fully understand the workload constraints and appreciate that you took the time to drop us a note. Be interested to know the reason for the change in the data centre when you have the time or are able to talk about it.

[ShinVector]

Dimento Graven, on 24 August 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

Dude, dude, dude, DUUUUUUUUUDE...

Be honest now... Y'all made a change to the solo queue MM just prior to this last challenge didn't you?

Admit it! C'mon... My experiences the week prior vs. the experiences from Friday onwards have been, let's put this... politically correct... "night and day".

So what'd PGI do? Did they add to everyone's ELO? Or did they take certain people and subtract from their ELO? SOMETHING is different, I've never had this sort of 'experience' be so 'consistent'...

Going from an 'at worst' 50/50 W/L ratio after 7 hours of play to a 1/10 W/L ratio after 7 hours of play, and the only discernible difference is the challenge...

C'mon, admit it, you poured sugar into the gas tank of the MM engine, didn't you?

My opinion as someone who had gone through multiple solo tournies.
Path to Victory was pretty much the same. For those competing they need to tip carry hard to the balance to the results we wanted.

Did you seriously try to rank yourself to the top in any of the solo tournies before ?

Edited by ShinVector, 25 August 2014 - 12:10 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

ShinVector, on 25 August 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

My opinion as someone who had gone through multiple solo tournies.
Path to Victory was pretty much the same. For those competing they need to tip carry hard to the balance to the results we wanted.

Did you seriously try to rank yourself to the top in any of the solo tournies before ?

Yes, actually, those tournaments/contests were bad, but for different reasons.

In this challenge, I just could never get a team worth a flying F bomb, however in the tournaments I would do well early on but finally out of frustration, account preservation, and the fact that I'm an adult with adult responsibilities would always have to drop out early.

The frustration and account preservation portion came from the people attempting to play in a 'my points only' mode, where all they cared about was increasing their point count, which caused some really bad play, where they'd jump in front of you in attempts to steal your kills. Well after two or three games killing teammates who unexpectedly interrupted the trajectory of my dual gauss rounds from my Jaeger, I figure time to quit before it looks like I'm doing this on purpose. That, and the fact that I have to sleep SOMETIME, and do my various 'chores' (home/vehicle maintenance) or be present at a place of employment, y'know adult stuff, I could only get a maximum of 8 hour stretch, in the evenings usually, playing the game, even on weekends...

Maybe the contests/tournaments/challenges will be different now that we can form our own units, BUT, until then, solo only and kill only challenges and such seem to bring out the worst...

[ShinVector]

Dimento Graven, on 25 August 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Maybe the contests/tournaments/challenges will be different now that we can form our own units, BUT, until then, solo only and kill only challenges and such seem to bring out the worst...

Hmmm... My opinion... Is that they are not exactly the 'worst'... Just bad players.. A lot more of them after the Wins with knowing for the achieve it.

EDit: I need to add it after what I experience and it might be relevant.
What in a bad losing streak... Then I was something obvious... Apparently I have become a liability for stay IS when 80% of everyone else is using CLAN mech to win.. Obviously clan mechs in the hands of of good players... Hiaz... 90%

The Invasion is Finally HERE !

Edited by ShinVector, 25 August 2014 - 09:38 AM.