1911 replies to this topic

[TheCaptainJZ]

^ I've heard the same

[slide]

(arghh! why don't quotes ever work for me)

@Icefang

Maybe you can't get lucky crit hits on engines (but my MG spider disagrees with you) either way 80+% of my deaths are caused by "engine destruction" as opposed to CT destruction. Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know in this case. Either way life expectancy would go up if engine health were increased.

In the last week alone have been killed by engine destruction, more than twice, from the back, with one shot, whilst on the move. Now I know that 16-20 armour on the back of an assault isn't much. With a 35 point alpha you can certainly burn through 20 points of armour and 15 points of engine, but what happened to internal structure points. Something doesn't add up here.

I don't ever recall dying to CT destruction. If this was the case salvage reward would be much higher due to surviving engines, assuming they count them in the first place. I am going to start keeping track of how I die (and mech), I know it happens often enough.

Maybe Karl can get clarification on whether engines can be killed by crit seeking weapons?

Edited by slide, 27 April 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

That's because you don't die from torso destruction ever, always engine destruction. But engines can only be destroyed by the torso section they reside in being destroyed (remember, a mech section being destroyed also destroys all components within that section, which is why ammo has a chance to explode from that too).

Engines are _not_ destroyed from crit damage, however. At all. This isn't a gray area, or poorly understood mechanic, its pretty cut and dried, and has (at least since the start of open beta) always been that way.

This is because engine destruction via crit dramatically shortens Time To Kill.

But, this also means that changes to engine HP would have zero effect in game.

[Sybreed]

slide, on 27 April 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

(arghh! why don't quotes ever work for me)

@Icefang

Maybe you can't get lucky crit hits on engines (but my MG spider disagrees with you) either way 80+% of my deaths are caused by "engine destruction" as opposed to CT destruction. Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know in this case. Either way life expectancy would go up if engine health were increased.

In the last week alone have been killed by engine destruction, more than twice, from the back, with one shot, whilst on the move. Now I know that 16-20 armour on the back of an assault isn't much. With a 35 point alpha you can certainly burn through 20 points of armour and 15 points of engine, but what happened to internal structure points. Something doesn't add up here.

I don't ever recall dying to CT destruction. If this was the case salvage reward would be much higher due to surviving engines, assuming they count them in the first place. I am going to start keeping track of how I die (and mech), I know it happens often enough.

Maybe Karl can get clarification on whether engines can be killed by crit seeking weapons?

CT destruction = engine destruction. Engines can't be critted and it's always been like this.

[slide]

I believe you guys so maybe you can clarify this for me.

Does a mechs IS hit points match it's armour rating. IE if you have 100points of CT amour (to split front and rear) you have 100 points IS theoretically giving you the ability to absorb up to 200 points of damage (depending on front rear splits). If so is this IS health also split front/rear (how)?

[ICEFANG13]

slide, on 27 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

I believe you guys so maybe you can clarify this for me.

Does a mechs IS hit points match it's armour rating. IE if you have 100points of CT amour (to split front and rear) you have 100 points IS theoretically giving you the ability to absorb up to 200 points of damage (depending on front rear splits). If so is this IS health also split front/rear (how)?

A mech has its old TT internal value for internals, which was not doubled. So a Jenner has 22 'real' armor, which is 44 now, and therefore has 22 internal, which is the same as it was.

[slide]

Actually I am pretty sure they doubled internals, but irrelevant to this discussion.

In the example I used above which is my Battlemaster 1S, I have 18 armour on the centre rear, no damage at all. I get one shotted from the rear.

So I either have 18+54(IS) hit points or 18+9(IS) (maybe 18+18) if distributed same as amour is.

If the former (72 points) I want to know what beastly mech is roaming around out there that can do a 72+pinpoint alpha.
If the later (27 points) can accept that it was a Jagerbomb (AC40) or some other 35 point alpha machine.

Just trying to understand here.

[ICEFANG13]

slide, on 27 April 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Actually I am pretty sure they doubled internals, but irrelevant to this discussion.

In the example I used above which is my Battlemaster 1S, I have 18 armour on the centre rear, no damage at all. I get one shotted from the rear.

So I either have 18+54(IS) hit points or 18+9(IS) (maybe 18+18) if distributed same as amour is.

If the former (72 points) I want to know what beastly mech is roaming around out there that can do a 72+pinpoint alpha.
If the later (27 points) can accept that it was a Jagerbomb (AC40) or some other 35 point alpha machine.

Just trying to understand here.

You would have 72 points, internal health is shared from back to front. While your back armor is 18 points and your front is 90, the internal for 'both' is 54, and if you get damaged from behind and your insides are damaged, and then someone opens up the front, those damaged internals are still the same HP.

It was probably a few mechs, there aren't many mechs that can realistically put that damage out. Although it may have been four A/C-20s, still unlikely.

[Randalf Yorgen]

if you're going to give the engines a boost to health points you should probably scale it for the size of mech. yes you can put a 300 in a spider but you can also put a 300 in an atlas. However the spider has far less room to work with so the amount of "extra" protection that can be grafted onto it should be minimal.

yes, this is a downer for spiders and lights but some sort of balance has to be kept. Lights shouldn't ever be in a prolonged battle with anything over 45tons. Even being in the open for more than a few seconds should be a risky venture but doubling the armour stopped from being a huge issue. making it so that they can take one or two extra CT shots from an A/C20/SRM6+4 combo isn't fair to the recently gimped assaults that now handle like pigs in the mud. it's a nice idea but I think it would (not could) cause a great deal of problems for PGI who need to be careful about hurting their player base anymore than they already have.

[Sybreed]

ICEFANG13, on 27 April 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

A mech has its old TT internal value for internals, which was not doubled. So a Jenner has 22 'real' armor, which is 44 now, and therefore has 22 internal, which is the same as it was.

wrong again, IS hit points were doubled based on the doubled armor values.

Guys, careful when you post stuff like this and state it like it's facts. Better do a double check before posting.

[ICEFANG13]

Sybreed, on 28 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

wrong again, IS hit points were doubled based on the doubled armor values.

Guys, careful when you post stuff like this and state it like it's facts. Better do a double check before posting.

I was correct when I first said you cannot die from engine crits. Perhaps you should work on your reading?

I also just went into testing grounds to test it and verify which was true, and I was correct, at least in testing grounds. Armor was doubled and internals were not, which has also shown to be true when I've been playing. I suggest you also check this yourself.

I should also add, that the head internals were doubled, and all mechs have the same head armor and internal at 18-18.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 28 April 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[Sybreed]

ICEFANG13, on 28 April 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

I was correct when I first said you cannot die from engine crits. Perhaps you should work on your reading?

I also just went into testing grounds to test it and verify which was true, and I was correct, at least in testing grounds. Armor was doubled and internals were not, which has also shown to be true when I've been playing. I suggest you also check this yourself.

I should also add, that the head internals were doubled, and all mechs have the same head armor and internal at 18-18.

Okay, if I'm wrong then I'll be the first to laugh at the irony, but let me make this clear. When PGI doubled armor TT values, I thought the IS values were also doubled as IS values were half of armor values. Isn't it how it is? I'll have to recheck this. And my comment wasn't aimed at you specifically, but at people who claim stuff as facts without double checking (which I'm soon to be a part of, as it seems)

[ICEFANG13]

Sybreed, on 28 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Okay, if I'm wrong then I'll be the first to laugh at the irony, but let me make this clear. When PGI doubled armor TT values, I thought the IS values were also doubled as IS values were half of armor values. Isn't it how it is? I'll have to recheck this. And my comment wasn't aimed at you specifically, but at people who claim stuff as facts without double checking (which I'm soon to be a part of, as it seems)

I was of the thought that originally (TT) internal armor values were equal to the sections armor, and that when armor was doubled, internals were not. If I was incorrect in that assumption, then internals were also doubled, but still half in value compared to external armor. Ie, Jenner is 22 internal and 44 external CT, I believed it was 22-22, but if it was 11-22, then I guess we are both a bit correct.

[Vlad Ward]

Icefang is correct. IS values are static and equivalent to 50% of the maximum armor value for that component in all areas but the head, which has 18 points of IS.

Engines can take critical hits and be "destroyed" but this has zero impact in the game and only served to increase repair bills when repair and reload was online back in 2012. In other words, Engine crits are currently a defunct mechanic.

For Karl, what kind of technical limitations, if any, could you imagine being an obstacle for the implementation of a more dynamic weapon convergence system? Say, for example, having an independent reticle for each weapon that converged to the desired point over time when stationary and spread out during movement? Is our current "everything hits the exact same spot" situation more design decision or engineering necessity?

Edited by Vlad Ward, 28 April 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Sybreed]

ICEFANG13, on 28 April 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

I was of the thought that originally (TT) internal armor values were equal to the sections armor, and that when armor was doubled, internals were not. If I was incorrect in that assumption, then internals were also doubled, but still half in value compared to external armor. Ie, Jenner is 22 internal and 44 external CT, I believed it was 22-22, but if it was 11-22, then I guess we are both a bit correct.

okay, I'll think we'll need both a MWO and TT expert to confirm this here, but I think IS values have always been half of stock armor values and when PGI doubled stock armor they also doubled stock IS values, which is what I was referring to earlier.

Vlad Ward, on 28 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Icefang is correct. IS values are static and equivalent to 50% of the maximum armor value for that component in all areas but the head, which has 18 points of IS.

well, we're both correct here. I said that IS values are 50% of armor values (I thought it was stock armor but apparently it's max armor), therefore, they were also doubled when PGI doubled armor. So, I was accurate in my assumption as well.

Edited by Sybreed, 28 April 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Vlad Ward, on 28 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Engines can take critical hits and be "destroyed" but this has zero impact in the game and only served to increase repair bills when repair and reload was online back in 2012. In other words, Engine crits are currently a defunct mechanic.

Thanks-I forgot about this, this was something that was actually kinda big back in the day. I think the system would be better without engine crits at all (assuming they worked), but then again I am also of the opinion that ammo that is crit-ed should always explode.

[Wintersdark]

Vlad Ward, on 28 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Icefang is correct. IS values are static and equivalent to 50% of the maximum armor value for that component in all areas but the head, which has 18 points of IS.

This is incorrect. The head has 15 internal structure, as 33 points of damage is what's needed to one-shot a mech via cockpit shot.

This is testable in both live and training grounds- load up a 35 point alpha - say, on a 3AC5/2PPC Banshee, or with a gauss+2PPC build, get someone to stand still/march up to a mech in the training grounds, and pop 'em one.

This much I'm sure about, as particularly back in the early jump-sniping days (Heavy Metal release) I was very regularly one-shotting intact mechs with gauss+2erppc.

This is also one of the side reasons why the Ghost Heat target alpha limit is 30, and why the guass rifle desync (charge delay) happened - to make 35 damage pinpoint strikes much harder to come by.

[Wintersdark]

Actually, Karl, if there's one thing you could do for us...

I understand this isn't your balliwack, but it's really important for player education.

Can you pass along to the Powers That Be, that we REALLY need one cohesive place where game mechanics like the above are posted?

There's so much misinformation and poorly understood aspects of the game that do not in any way benefit from obscurity. Ghost heat is one such thing, obviously, but there's many others: How much internal structure do mech components have? How exactly do crits work? How does CASE work?

We need a MWO sponsored Wiki or some such we can fill with such information, and have it vetted by Those Who Know. Forum threads are problematic because - as you can see above - they get filled with discussion about given mechanics and while they're interesting discussions the answers are lost in the cruft of the forum. There ARE posted answers for some of these, but they're lost between command chair posts, old AtD posts, and all sorts of random stuff.

It's really important for new players (and experienced ones) to have a cohesive place where they can learn how things work, because right now just asking on the forum is far more likely to get an incorrect answer than a good one. A place where people can refer players with questions, where they can get all their answers in one (known-good) place.

Clearing up a lot of the grossly misunderstood aspects of the game mechanics would really help a lot of players out.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 April 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Wintersdark, on 28 April 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

This is incorrect. The head has 15 internal structure, as 33 points of damage is what's needed to one-shot a mech via cockpit shot.

This is testable in both live and training grounds- load up a 35 point alpha - say, on a 3AC5/2PPC Banshee, or with a gauss+2PPC build, get someone to stand still/march up to a mech in the training grounds, and pop 'em one.

This much I'm sure about, as particularly back in the early jump-sniping days (Heavy Metal release) I was very regularly one-shotting intact mechs with gauss+2erppc.

This is also one of the side reasons why the Ghost Heat target alpha limit is 30, and why the guass rifle desync (charge delay) happened - to make 35 damage pinpoint strikes much harder to come by.

I tested that too, but I used a single small laser and it took 12 shots. I'll check again later when I can.

[Wintersdark]

Sure. 12 shots with a small laser are 36 damage, but the last hit destroyed the cockpit before the full damage was done. 33 damage is enough, but your aim may have wavered for a single damage tick with the SL or some weird hiccup caused that fraction of a point not to register.

This is why 35 points is generally considered the magic number. A 35 point strike can one shot any mech.