1911 replies to this topic

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Wintersdark, on 17 May 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

And no, outside of Ghost Heat, weapons generate their listed heat. This is testable by comparing mathematical models to real world usage, which works out - see online heat simulator and various mechlab reports.

I've seen mention of Heat Retention though, and only a small number of weapons seem to have it apply to the one firing them. Medium Lasers and Flamers might have it for example.

[Wintersdark]

Praetor Shepard, on 18 May 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

I've seen mention of Heat Retention though, and only a small number of weapons seem to have it apply to the one firing them. Medium Lasers and Flamers might have it for example.

Medium lasers do not. They generate heat as normal
Flamers are a special case, I forgot to mention them earlier because Flamers are terrible.

Flamers generate increasing heat over time, so one continuously fired flamer will eventually overheat any mech. This can be bypassed by using two flamers chain fired - a continuous beam, but alternating its source. Thus, this could not apply to any other weapon as machine guns generate zero heat, and no other weapon fires continuously.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 18 May 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Medium lasers do not. They generate heat as normal

Medium lasers do retain heat - take a mech out with only 1 medium laser and the 10 engine DHS - in theory you should never overheat right?

You will eventually.

[Hammerhai]

Karl, Please look at the following post:
http://mwomercs.com/...7#entry3351077.

And please excuse the emoting there. I was annoyed. I do think anybody would be if his laser alpha potentially has ghost heat and 20 actual damage over time, not 36 as advertised

The questions arising from this:
Is there a laser hitreg problem as well? Disclosure: I believe this to have been and still be the case since closed beta.
My point: At 100% hits the damage per shot for large lasers is half of what it should be. Namely 5.

In the alternative: Does getting one tick per shot on target count as a "hit". The fact that LL's register 5 tells me that a mean is being calculated here, not a damage per tick sum. In any case then it should be closer to 5.5 plus secondary damage.

So I would like to know: Exactly how is that number being calculated?

The way I came across this was with Sjur War Eagles Improved statistics program, which showed the number of hit per weapon pretty much as the client reports it to the stats page, but you get to see the individual game, not the aggregate. Sadly, the tool does not work anymore, and development has ceased.

If I am in error, I think you are my last resort at finding out from somebody in the know. Putting my threads in the morgue for a potential current issue will not make me go away, moderators. (***Looks in the direction of offending moderators in general.***) As always, if you cannot answer, thank you for at least reading about it.

And I would like to remind us all to be gentle on Karl, he does have a private and business life to run as well

Edited by Hammerhai, 19 May 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Shar Wolf, on 19 May 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Medium lasers do retain heat - take a mech out with only 1 medium laser and the 10 engine DHS - in theory you should never overheat right?

You will eventually.

Aaaaand, no. Not on a heat-neutral map where you have full dissipation anyways. I dropped on Forest Colony, and continuously fired one medium laser for 5 minutes at full speed. At the end of it, my Wolverine would spike *just* to 7% heat for a tiny fraction of a second with each shot. At the very beginning? It would spike to 7% heat for the same tiny fraction of a second. If you were going to eventually overheat, it would be showing at 5 minutes - I'd have a much higher heat level.

Not the case. In the interests of full disclosure, I'll try it on Terra Therma - though note that an overheat there just means that the map heat is reducing our cooling more than it should.

Ok, same Wolverine, on Terra Therma. Fired 1ML for 3 minutes, heat still spiking at the same point it was from the first shot. I continued firing, ran into the Caldera (no interruption in firing at all!) and stood in the lava till I was at 90%. Stepped out of the lava, and cooled off while continuing to fire that medium laser.

Conclusively: There is no "heat retention" with medium lasers.

Edited by Wintersdark, 19 May 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 19 May 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Conclusively: There is no "heat retention" with medium lasers.

Then they changed that in the last few months - when I tested it back in February it did - on Forest Colony

[Wintersdark]

And again, live match on Caustic, Medium Laser fired literally continuously throughout the match, no overheat.

Only 10DHS.

[Cimarb]

Wintersdark, on 19 May 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

And again, live match on Caustic, Medium Laser fired literally continuously throughout the match, no overheat.

Only 10DHS.

I bet people love having you on their team... "Hey, Winter, quit firing your stupid laser against that rock and HELLLLLLLLP MEEEEE!"

[Wintersdark]

Cimarb, on 19 May 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I bet people love having you on their team... "Hey, Winter, quit firing your stupid laser against that rock and HELLLLLLLLP MEEEEE!"

In live matches, I always fight.

The only issue this test created was that I was wasting heatcap. Still, said Wolverine also sported SRM's and an AC10, which where used to reasonable effect with ~400 damage and a kill. Not amazing, but I was forced to be careful about not accidentally tagging teammates

[Wintersdark]

Basically, you need to test these things at least once in a live match in order to avoid the "Oh, that's because the Testing Grounds is different!" claims and confirm behavior is as expected in live.

But yeah, you'll never see me not contribute in a match - I'm strongly against screwing the game for 23 other players. Much the same reason I'd never just disconnect no matter how much I may loathe a map(Damn you, RCN) or whatever else.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Cimarb, on 19 May 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I bet people love having you on their team... "Hey, Winter, quit firing your stupid laser against that rock and HELLLLLLLLP MEEEEE!"

It is called the Testing Grounds.

It isn't perfect - but you can still test a lot of stuff there.

[Wintersdark]

Shar Wolf, on 19 May 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

It is called the Testing Grounds.

It isn't perfect - but you can still test a lot of stuff there.

Yeah, as I said above I do testing in the Testing Grounds, but then verify in Live, just in case. I've been bitten in the ass that way before

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Wintersdark, on 19 May 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

And again, live match on Caustic, Medium Laser fired literally continuously throughout the match, no overheat.

Only 10DHS.

That would be 1.00 heat a second against 2.00 heat dissipated a second though, if no bump up from 4 to 5.
If heat increases to 5 on ML's from heat retention, then that would still only be 1.39 heat against 2 heat dissipated, I don't think we would be able to see much of a difference in this case. It would be better to use SHS in such a case for a single ML.

Or two MLs against 10 DHS should be able to see any sort of heat retention effect, if it does exist or not.

For example, the LCT-1V with 10 SHS would dissipate 1.15 heat fully Elited. 1 ML should not see raises, but if the effect does exist, then that would be 0.24 addition above dissipation at 1.39 heat a second.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 19 May 2014 - 05:10 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Which leads to the question, Praetor, why would Medium Lasers specifically(as in, no other weapon) have a weird, random heat generation increase mechanic nothing else has? The Flamer heat increase is a sliding scale so even a single flamer fired constantly will overheat any mech.

You're proposing that Medium Lasers alone have a fully unique heat mechanic for no apparent reason?

Even if this where the case, I should have seen the ML firing increase the heat spike point after a couple shots, but that didn't happen.

Finally, why would subsequent shots have higher heat? There's a lot of cool down time between beams fired, so it can't be related to ghost heat.

This whole thing is just bizzare. Is there any testing showing it happens, anywhere? Or just anecdotal stories?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 19 May 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

This whole thing is just bizzare. Is there any testing showing it happens, anywhere? Or just anecdotal stories?

Koniving did some testing on that a while ago - and I said, I had tested it for the ML a while back.
(the DHS vs SHS might be the difference between me and your results though)

If I remember right - there were quite a few weapons that had it - including the Flamer - but it was easiest to test with the ML
(or something)

You could try getting ahold of him about it?

[Wintersdark]

But this is the thing: it can't be the same heat mechanic as a flamer, because:

1) a medium laser cannot fire continuously, and even a fraction of a second not firing with a flamer resets its heat generation to base.
2) even if its cool down time counted, the result would be that one ML would eventually overheat anything.

Nevertheless, I'll build a mech with an couple ML's where at 4 heat they can fire continuously, and at 5 heat they'll overheat. But I still think this is a fools errand prompted by some misunderstood anecdote.

[Alaskan Nobody]

It had to do with how frequently they fire - IE fire them repeatedly within 5 seconds and it kicks in - don't fire them for 5 seconds and it shuts off (thus returning the next shot to base)

Or something like that

[Wintersdark]

Ok, next test complete.

Subject: QKD-5K, XL300 with only the 10 integral DHS, mastered.
Location: Forest Colony (map-neutral heat)

Dissipation: 2.3HPS.

Weapons for test: twin ML (2.00 HPS @ 4 heat, 2.50HPS @ 5 heat), 1 PPC as a control (2.5HPS)

Continuously firing the PPC increases heat max by roughly 2% per shot (so heat spikes to 12, then 14, then 16, with each successive shot). This is the expected behaviour given 2.5HPS vs. 2.3HDPS. Yay control!

2 ML's: At 4 heat, these should fire continuously forever without raising heat max. At 5 heat, they should increase it by the same amount the PPC did, as they'd be generating 2.5HPS as well.

Fired 2 ML's for 5 minutes. No heat max increase, spiked to the same amount every time.

Conclusion: This is just silly. Medium Lasers generate 1HPS, even when fired continuously.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Might want to Go let Koniving know then - last I checked he brought it up periodically.

Edit: no might about it!

Edited edit: that and I may have been getting the details wrong

Edited by Shar Wolf, 19 May 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Wintersdark, on 19 May 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Spoiler

Which leads to the question, Praetor, why would Medium Lasers specifically(as in, no other weapon) have a weird, random heat generation increase mechanic nothing else has? The Flamer heat increase is a sliding scale so even a single flamer fired constantly will overheat any mech.

You're proposing that Medium Lasers alone have a fully unique heat mechanic for no apparent reason?

Even if this where the case, I should have seen the ML firing increase the heat spike point after a couple shots, but that didn't happen.

Finally, why would subsequent shots have higher heat? There's a lot of cool down time between beams fired, so it can't be related to ghost heat.

This whole thing is just bizzare. Is there any testing showing it happens, anywhere? Or just anecdotal stories?

Yeah, that's why I decided to ask in the first place to learn of any additional details on heat generation and to set the record straight.


One of the first places I first read about heat retention was here. Maybe I was too gullible and it never existed on MLs, I dunno.

Also, I just took my LCT-1V out on Training Grounds, Caustic and Rver City. The most I got the single ML on River City was to 5% on the Elited mech, 10 SHS, nothing unusual holding the trigger. I'm going to take my Locust into a few matches, to see if I can glean anything live also with SHS.