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Paging Karl Berg...karl Berg, Please Pick Up The White Courtesy Phone...


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#81 Steinar Bergstol

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:11 AM

View PostShar Wolf, on 03 April 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

Wait?!

So other people have that issue with other 1st person viewpoint games to?

I could never find much about that!


Definitely. Sim-type games with a visible cockpit to provide a point of reference for my eyes have never given me motion sickness. The same could not be said for, for example, Mirror's Edge which I had to put down after an hour or so of play and have a lie-down.

#82 Karl Berg

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 08 April 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

CJ a staunch hater <snip..>


Seriously? I just checked and he has 10,583 of those forum awesomeness popularity point things, so I'm guessing he used to be a highly active player; although it looks like he hasn't even played July of last year.

Chronojam, if you would humor me, was there something in particular that set you off? If there are specific issues, it's possible I might be able to rectify some at best, or at the very least provide an explanation or further insight. For now, the best I can do is apologize on behalf of the company.

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 08 April 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

so pgi fox once hinted at 21K unique logins for an weekend's duration of the current queue setup. is it possibly we could have a best day worst day figures on that front? or any plans with anticipating the numbers distribution as far as public play -> faction play -> private matches are concerned so far as playerbase distribution? would love to hear the viability of the three queues split considering 1pv only queue didn't happen and that was just 1 queue split over the 4 game modes that would've been available. now we're talking about skirmish too so 3modes and 1 queue {pubbie queue} with an additional 3 modes and 1 queue {faction play} and whatever for private matches. a split of 7 instead of 4 now, how will MWO cope!?


Hrm, well we've all been told to explicitly not share user count telemetry. I'm guessing this is a contractual issue, because we do have a publisher and investors involved, and this was a very specifically communicated point. That particular number seems extremely low though, so I think Fox has hedged his bets by providing you a lower bound.

Splitting queues is something we *really* hesitate to do. Match quality is already a hugely touchy subject, we constantly receive complaints about bad matches. On deep investigation, for many specific cases, we find that Elo deltas are actually very close; but the problem here is perception. Elo is purposefully a hidden variable, because we really wanted this to be a match quality metric, an invisible hand to help make your experience better, not a stat for users to compete over. Users are making assumptions about Elo ratings that are often highly inaccurate on examination. *If* we split our queues more, and then users decide that match quality has tanked as a result, it could easily spiral into yet another negative feedback cycle. What you're getting into here is starting to touch on CW design though. It's a bit different to what you're describing, but since it's unreleased, that's something I have to leave to design to communicate.

#83 Heffay

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:50 AM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Users are making assumptions about Elo ratings that are often highly inaccurate on examination.


I don't see how this is possible. I mean I'm clearly rocking a 2200+ Elo, and I'm finding a lot of decent matches out there. -_-

I do wish they would release some more metrics though. Even if it's not Elo specifically. A range you're in, as in different leagues. And make it publicly available. Even though some people will use the metrics to make other people miserable, it also solves a lot of problems with people making stuff up (which is probably 10 times the problem of Elo bashing).

I've always thought that people do better with more information instead of less. Even if they are misusing it, people can explain what the right answer is for you.

#84 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:54 AM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Chronojam, if you would humor me, was there something in particular that set you off?


This oughta be good...

#85 Karl Berg

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:59 AM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

I've always thought that people do better with more information instead of less. Even if they are misusing it, people can explain what the right answer is for you.


That's true, we might have made a mistake here and backed ourselves into a bad corner. We made the decision to keep Elo hidden based off stories of bad experiences from other game developers who publicly released skill ratings. It's also possible that our usage of Elo is non-optimal. Even though the ratings converge quickly overall, grouping can throw a huge wrench into our ability to predict match outcome. This is something we're still examining and could very likely change in future.

#86 Roadbeer

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Splitting queues is something we *really* hesitate to do. Match quality is already a hugely touchy subject, we constantly receive complaints about bad matches.


Hi Karl,

I wanted to jump on this part for a second. I know that it's always been said that splitting queues is bad, but going through the rough calculations in my head (and something I've posted in another thread) with the release of Community Warfare, I'm figuring between 15 and 27 different queues.

Elo "Tiers" = 3
Weight Class = 4
IS v IS or IS v Clan = 2
(now just for the IS v IS)
Faction "Buckets" = 6 (One for each House)
Battlefront "Buckets"* = 12 (One for each border)

This is gathered using information given in Paul's Launch Module write up, Bryan's NGNG #103 Podcast and the Launch Party video on Community Warfare. So, could you clarify this point for me please and thank you.

*Assuming that each faction has 2 fronts based off of it's borders with its neighbors

Edited by Roadbeer, 09 April 2014 - 11:20 AM.


#87 Heffay

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:23 AM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:


That's true, we might have made a mistake here and backed ourselves into a bad corner. We made the decision to keep Elo hidden based off stories of bad experiences from other game developers who publicly released skill ratings. It's also possible that our usage of Elo is non-optimal. Even though the ratings converge quickly overall, grouping can throw a huge wrench into our ability to predict match outcome. This is something we're still examining and could very likely change in future.


That's good to know. That has always been one of the issues with the current implementation of Elo here: Grouping has a dramatic effect on someone's Elo, since a 4 man meta group will have a much larger effect on the outcome of a match than a solo dropper. However, you have to take into account that if you drop a 4 man group with their solo Elo, they'll be stomping all over a much lower range than if they had a group Elo. It may be possible to figure out a modifier based on group size (2 mans -> +100 Elo, 3 mans -> +200 Elo, 4 mans -> +300; exact numbers could probably be calculated fairly easily if you have the data) and use that to tweak the group Elo instead. This would have the added advantage of taking away the disincentive of a high level Elo player from doing just casual matches, since if someone got to 2200 strictly by doing 4 mans, they might not want to solo drop and risk their Elo. Even if it isn't visible.

The good news is you can always change your mind. Sure, there will be a whole lot of "position at the time" jokes flying around, but every single game does it. Heck, WoW has changed their talent structure so many times now I've lost track, and the only thing that is consistent about the process is that people will complain that it is strictly to nerf their class and will be the end of WoW. -_-

edit: Hmm...even my method could be exploited; just create your competitive account, and only drop in 4 mans. Your Elo will never change, and eventually you'll be in a full meta group and still rocking the 1100 Elo pool. Some sort of Elo modification needs to happen even in groups I guess.

Edited by Heffay, 09 April 2014 - 11:25 AM.


#88 Karl Berg

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:35 AM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

It may be possible to figure out a modifier based on group size (2 mans -> +100 Elo, 3 mans -> +200 Elo, 4 mans -> +300; exact numbers could probably be calculated fairly easily if you have the data) and use that to tweak the group Elo instead. This would have the added advantage of taking away the disincentive of a high level Elo player from doing just casual matches, since if someone got to 2200 strictly by doing 4 mans, they might not want to solo drop and risk their Elo. Even if it isn't visible.


Yes, I've asked BI for exactly what those curves are based on data-mining operations. We've got enough data that we should be able to get some extremely accurate numbers.

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

The good news is you can always change your mind. Sure, there will be a whole lot of "position at the time" jokes flying around, but every single game does it. Heck, WoW has changed their talent structure so many times now I've lost track, and the only thing that is consistent about the process is that people will complain that it is strictly to nerf their class and will be the end of WoW. -_-


One would always hope that us changing things for the better, especially where backed up with analytic data, would be well received. Unfortunately you might be right here, because, as with many things, there are always tradeoffs. The effect of this change would be a group Elo penalty. It would remove a strong competitive advantage that groups now enjoy, and would generally result in a measurable increase in the difficulty of the games they face. I could see how that might upset a lot of group players. On the other hand, we have a lot of players complaining about how easy games are. On yet another hand, if I'm allowed to have three, it helps address one of designs most serious concerns about unbounding group sizes*... <ducks and runs away from thread>

* I'm not authorized to speak for Design, this is only one of the concerns they've brought up.

#89 Heffay

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

One would always hope that us changing things for the better, especially where backed up with analytic data, would be well received. Unfortunately you might be right here, because, as with many things, there are always tradeoffs. The effect of this change would be a group Elo penalty.


It's all about how you phrase it. It's not a "group Elo penalty." It's ensuring that groups enjoy the same level of competitive games that their solo compatriots get to enjoy today. It's a buff to group play! ;-)

#90 Roadbeer

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:58 AM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:


It's all about how you phrase it. It's not a "group Elo penalty." It's ensuring that groups enjoy the same level of competitive games that their solo compatriots get to enjoy today. It's a buff to group play! ;-)

It's actually not a bad idea, and while it *can* be gamed as you said, I think your numbers were sound, a +50 modifier per player in a group, would take even the most average players (1300 Elo) in a 4 man and put them into the Tier 1 Elo bucket, mitigating the VoIP/coordination X factor that apparently has been the plague of MM. You could even double it above the 6 man level.

Team Average Elo + (50x groupsize <6) = Adjusted Team Elo
Team Average Elo + (100x groupsize >6) = Adjusted Team Elo

Even a 12 player team with an average Elo of 400 would be put into the Teir 1 "bucket"

#91 Heffay

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

View PostRoadbeer, on 09 April 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Even a 12 player team with an average Elo of 400 would be put into the Teir 1 "bucket"


Yah, but who is going to remind them to breathe during the match?

#92 Roadbeer

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:


Yah, but who is going to remind them to breathe during the match?

Nobody, they need to focus on the task at hand.

#93 Heffay

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:37 PM

OK, back to questions for Karl:

Why Windows (2008?) for game servers and not Linux? For servers where performance and latency is a concern, wouldn't a highly customizable OS be a better base?

Has a game server ever suffered from a BSOD?

#94 Karl Berg

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

OK, back to questions for Karl:

Why Windows (2008?) for game servers and not Linux? For servers where performance and latency is a concern, wouldn't a highly customizable OS be a better base?

Has a game server ever suffered from a BSOD?


CryEngine => Cry dedicated servers for hosting games.

#95 Chronojam

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:54 PM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Seriously? I just checked and he has 10,583 of those forum awesomeness popularity point things, so I'm guessing he used to be a highly active player; although it looks like he hasn't even played July of last year.

Chronojam, if you would humor me, was there something in particular that set you off? If there are specific issues, it's possible I might be able to rectify some at best, or at the very least provide an explanation or further insight. For now, the best I can do is apologize on behalf of the company.
Not sure how to approach this. I could go really concise upfront and link you an image that was actually banned by the moderation team because it got too popular, but may as well write some words and maybe they'll amount to something.

Yes, as you might imagine, "CJ is a staunch hater" was quite an oversimplification. At the beginning, I played the hell out of MWO as you guessed, until things finally reached a breaking point for not just me but essentially my entire unit.

In June 2012, the Hunchback was added to the game -- by July 2012, we already had over 300 players. I am not exaggerating when I claim we had over 1,500 players active at one point, but our last active guy was Mint_Frog who finally gave up. It's crazy to watch firsthand as that many people get fed up and leave, and watching your buddies all cringe at patchnotes. Despite being from a big group, it's also a bit of an oversimplification to say the issues we had were all big-group issues.

When UI 2.0 came out I did try to install it again -- on an alt -- and did experience some difficulty with that process and the in-game settings (which has since been fixed, I heard) and found that didn't really pull me back as you also might imagine.

One of the reasons I used an alt at work, and believe others used alts to check patches, is because of a sense that upper management was out of touch, unable to properly take meaning from data, and would see founders logging in and say "Aha! Retention! These patches are working brilliantly!" At one point there was some statement made that implied that 50% of founders were retained because they had logged in within the 30 day window or something. That was frustrating to hear; maybe that's not a correct reading of the original statement, but that was the impression and was never corrected.

The growing sense that PGI's top guys were out of touch is a trend that's painfully evident if you glance through old Ask The Devs, etc., where the tone changes from hopeful optimism ("When will feature _____ be implemented?") to questions that started to take the format of "Do you even know _____ is an issue?"

You can see that same sense continuing still. For example, the recent dev feedback thread on group drop data. The community has a lot of concern that the group drop data is being misread and will be misused. A lot of players starting to argue about "group launches" vs "player launches" and what percentage of the population uses what group method. Nothing has been done to reassure players, allowing the atmosphere to get even worse. That's a tale that's been told time and time again in the past.

Not only has nothing been done to reassure players when they have concerns, but many times, more fuel has been added to the fire after a long wait for clarification. For example, players had concerns about cockpit glass for a very long time. Predictably, with developer silence (and apparent ignorance of the issue itself), came player resentment. Finally, on Twitter of all places (another gripe that's now being addressed, maybe?) a statement was made: Removing glass would be a premium option.

Well, fuel on the fire, this sounds an awful lot like something you have to pay for, as opposed to a normal option like Anti-Aliasing. Developer silence on what a "premium option" was, is predictably met with players roaring over its implications.

On that particular note, I'd like to thank you for clarifying about player count indications. And reading this far. I'll touch upon that. A long while back, we had player counts displayed (much like several titles, such as War Thunder, display). Players are dissatisfied with its removal, and questions about player counts were met with the usual silence. Finally, prodded enough, Russ tossed out: "People might misinterpret the numbers."

And, my, that is a wholly unsatisfying explanation. The explanation we just now, in this thread, got from you is far more palatable and not condescending in the least, and is the first time it's felt properly addressed. So, thank you. A while ago, Kyle/Fox told us in very intentionally specific phrasing about "logins" for the day while specifically not mentioning player counts.

That was also much-welcomed information... unfortunately, this sort of information was never presented in any of the "State of things" wrap-ups and you'd only know it if you saw it cited by a player or were reading reddit that day. That's the kind of thing we'd expect to see Russ or Bryan mention in a summary somewhere.

Anyhow, what's got me irritated in particular, some of it still-to-this-day?

Ghost Heat - A lazy balancing mechanic that was poorly explained at its inception, poorly implemented and full of questionable choices that broke several weapons and reinforced the playstyle it ostensibly targeted. You'd think firing 40-50-60 LRMs would have a predictable heat curve, but 50 is cooler than 40 or 60.

Balance and Build Variety - Sort of hand in hand with Ghost Heat. Paul promised us "Aggressive balance changes" with regards to SRMs a year ago -- those changes never came if you read the patch notes up until now, and even players who say SRMs are balanced readily admit they are unreliable due to hit detection and splash (or lack thereof). Recently there was a comment that the game was balanced except autocannons were being looked at; this comes as a surprise to anybody who was wondering what good flamers or small lasers were for.

The 2PPC1Gauss metagame was allowed to rule alongside jumpsniping (with that same loadout) while players watched as balance fixes did nothing but encourage that playstyle by gutting its competition. It took forever for jumpjet changes to get in there that disrupted jumpsniping, but those were quickly reverted (to the detriment of gameplay). Only very recently was another attempt to overhaul jumpjets made, finally making "Should I take jumpjets?" even a question because up until now the answer was "Yes, take one jump jet if your mech can take them."

SHS vs DHS is not even a choice. DHS are a clear upgrade. Perhaps that's the PGI vision for the game, but it's bad for build variety and takes it from a thoughtful consideration directly into being a "newbie tax."

Teamplay support - No integrated VOIP, beyond the tragicomic C3 effort that was hyped as the best thing since walking tanks in an over the top press release in Reuters. Not even token clan tag support. Nothing to facilitate group matchups beyond players sync-dropping. No ability to have a mission record to even find players you dropped with post-match. Very sketchy text chat, with no in-game quick-command options (attack my target, fall back, cover me, overheating, disengage, etc.). This more than anything probably helps create the gulf between the "haves" and "have-nots" in groups, and makes it hard for players to even find a team. "Go on the third party NGNG teamspeak server and hope you find some guys to play with" isn't really a good alternative.

Communication - This should be very, painfully obvious. And I feel it has been a two-way problem. The former community manager and administrator Niko Snow did not do a good job. From the surprise and shock that PGI seems to feel when players provide direct feedback on issues, it makes me wonder if a lot of negativity was whitewashed before reaching the decision-makers or dismissed upfront as trolling/nonsense. Once, I had a conversation with Garth about the balance between long range and close range weaponry. He was honestly convinced that was impossible to achieve; this makes me wonder if player feedback towards those ends was simply discarded.

There have been one or two volunteer moderators who were causing issues, and apparently nobody responsible knew. Again, there was some degree of surprise/shock when everyday PGI staffers heard about what was going on and they were quick to correct it, but the "proper channels" had failed.



I stopped playing because after sticking with it for so long, I did not see the game getting better. I saw the game getting worse. There was no more patience left, I could not in good faith invite friends to play due to a worsening new player experience and dismal future outlook. Providing feedback seemed pointless as it never seemed to actually get anywhere, and game-damaging decisions were being made in direct opposition to known community sentiment.

Here's an image for you, after all. It helps sum up a lot of the community's concerns, certainly my own, and I very nearly posted this alone as reply to you. This image was banned from the forum as initially linked, the URLs being added to the profanity filter to prevent players from re-posting it easily. Here it is, not as originally linked but instead as captured by one of several low-postcount founder/phoenix purchasers who had grown frustrated with the path MWO had taken.

Posted Image

beefridge has indeed not posted since then, in case you're wondering.

#96 Klappspaten

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

View PostHeffay, on 09 April 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

That's good to know. That has always been one of the issues with the current implementation of Elo here: Grouping has a dramatic effect on someone's Elo, since a 4 man meta group will have a much larger effect on the outcome of a match than a solo dropper. However, you have to take into account that if you drop a 4 man group with their solo Elo, they'll be stomping all over a much lower range than if they had a group Elo. It may be possible to figure out a modifier based on group size (2 mans -> +100 Elo, 3 mans -> +200 Elo, 4 mans -> +300; exact numbers could probably be calculated fairly easily if you have the data) and use that to tweak the group Elo instead. This would have the added advantage of taking away the disincentive of a high level Elo player from doing just casual matches, since if someone got to 2200 strictly by doing 4 mans, they might not want to solo drop and risk their Elo. Even if it isn't visible.


The only issue I would see with that would be grouped players without VoIP communications.
I could be reducing an advantage thay just not have, and therefore be a serious disadvantage for them.
But I myself would probably really enjoy that, of course there are games in that I get stomped even if I drop in a 4 man group. But usually that happens because we take high risks when we do.
Often we attack from a really stupid position and still come out the winner.
On the other hand, when we make a drop where we are highly concentrated we usually dominate the game if there is no other group on the other side. Which is fun for one or two matches, but then it gets boring and we start dooing dumb stuff again.

I would really enjoy a group tier though, with 3, 4 man groups on both sides. That could give the competitive players a lot of fun and tough games.
Yet I understand PGIs concerns on splitting the playerbucket.

#97 Rasc4l

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

I'm honestly quite shocked at Karl Berg's attempts to openly communicate with MWO players through the actual MWO forums. I certainly hope we will see more of this with the forum revamp. I mean in addition to bringing back General Discussion, how about Devs bringing really the Discussion with the General. It's getting a bit ridiculous to gauge the daily MWO-mood by having to refresh the game's CEO's twitter account. Can't Russ/Paul/Bryan come down from their twittery tower to meet us here at the forums if they are so control freaks that they can't allow some community manager to KNOW enough what's going on to efficiently communicate that to the player base on a weekly basis?

Chronojam had some very good old points about what has long been wrong with the game. Such points have been debated to death at the forums already years or months ago and since they are no longer actively discussed, I'm afraid that people who should know about them and fix them just forget them and think they are no longer issues. Like the simple fact that at competitive level, there are basically 3 working weapons in the game: PPC and (U)AC/5. This makes comments like "balance is almost fine" quite absurd. Problems with game balance are markedly pronounced at the highest skill level, because those people know best how to minmax and play. Thus, communication should be established with competitive teams to make the game really work. Like it has been said, the salt of all multiplayer games are the little communities, clans and guilds that the gamers make themselves and from this "richness" comes a trickle-down effect all the way to the lowest PUGs... :)

#98 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

... On yet another hand, if I'm allowed to have three, it helps address one of designs most serious concerns about unbounding group sizes*... <ducks and runs away from thread> ...

Someone might have been paying attention to my feedback in the various group size feedback threads ... or not ...

If not, > here < is the most recent ... and it even could help solve the problem mentioned here ...

View PostKarl Berg, on 09 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

... Splitting queues is something we *really* hesitate to do. ...

And, yeah, Chronojam basically summed up the last year and a half of frustration for a large part of long-term players. Some of us are just more patient, optimistic, hopeful, and/or foolish than others (or don't want to start playing another game -- we only want a great MechWarrior game).

One simple thing that would go a long way towards restoring some of the faith we have lost ...
If a Dev communicates something that creates confusion in the community, quickly clarify it. Everyone makes mistakes, not everyone admits them and tries to correct them.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 09 April 2014 - 07:42 PM.


#99 Tekadept

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:11 PM

Definitely does suck being restricted to winblows for a dedicated server because of cryengine, but that is chalked up to things you can't change :) I reckon Cryengine has a secret deal with MS so people have to buy Microsoft licences to run dedeicated servers :o

Can I just say I personally think "Karl Berg" is winning the MWO forum on Developer Responses. Much more useful information has come out of this thread then the has come from the "community manager".

Can you have a word to Niko and teach him your ways?

#100 Karl Berg

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:07 PM

Chronojam, I've got about 2,000 words written up in response to your post. I'm having it reviewed right now to ensure I don't accidentally let slip unannounced future plans or violate any agreements we're bound by. I'll post it here as soon as I can.

For now, you have my thanks for taking your time to write all that up. It really does help me judge where some of our more critical failures have been, and where to focus on for future improvements.





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