201 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

I've been saying for a while that ammo explosions should have at least a 50% chance instead of the 10% they are currently.

[Lightfoot]

That's what happens pretty much. Once the armor is gone they next hit causes a massive explosion of the ammo which can take out a nearby mech section if there is enough ammo. And CASE doesn't prevent this PGI, but I assume the devs know this already.

By the way, MWO is the nerfy-est version of MechWarrior and will be for all time. Mechs should carry multiple big ACs and fire 5 large lasers at once and the Mechs should shrug off this damage for awhile. That's what 31st century Battlemechs do.

Edited by Lightfoot, 20 January 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[stjobe]

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

I think, you are doing those percentages wrong.

I think you were engaging in some wishful thinking when you said you were "very good at math".

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

It shouldn't "decrease" the chances of making a bin explode if more crits are applied, it should increase the chance

Triple crits occur 3% of the time, 3 in 100, which is a lot less than 42%, 42 in 100. Yes, making three bins explode is a 30% chance, but that's ignoring actually getting the triple crit in the first place, which is a very slim chance in and of itself.

Once more then, you have to
1. get a triple crit (3%)
2. have them hit ammo bins and not something else (lets assume they do, 100%)
3. have that ammo explode (10% chance each, 30% chance for one of the three)

Which means, the chance to get a triple crit and have ammo explode is 0.03 * 0.3 = 0.009 = 0.9%.

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

You are diminishing the return of the multiple crit chances. Yes, the chance to score the triple crit is low on it's own, 3%, however if one is scored the chance it will hit an ammo bin, even if there is only 1 out of 11 other components, increases by 3

I'm actually assuming we hit ammo bins 100% of the time; if I didn't, the chance would dwindle far beyond 0.9%.

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

The returns shouldn't deminish. You are gauging the chances of scoring a triple crit, and then diminishing the "return" of having 3 chances.

I'm tripling the chance of getting an ammo explosion from 10% to 30% because we have three hits occurring, how is that diminishing anything?

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

You also forget, the other chances of scoring a single crit, or a double crit, also need to be considered as well, as you don't "only score a triple or nothing".

When calculating the chances of getting a triple crit, it is indeed "a triple crit or nothing".

The 42% we were talking about in previous posts is the total chance of getting any kind of crit, so it's not like I "forget" anything.

If you want to calculate the chances of getting a double crit and having one of those crits explode some ammo, feel free. I've done the math for any crit (42%) and triple crits (3%). The chance to score a double crit is 14%, off you go. Don't forget to show your work.

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

The chances of scoring a triple crit is low, but once you do score it, your chances of finding ammo and making it explode increase 3 fold.

Which I accounted for in my calculation by
1. assuming all crits hit ammo bins
2. tripling the chance of an ammo explosion, from 10% to 30%

3% * 30% is still 0.9%, sorry.

Tesunie, on 20 January 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Remove the 0.03 (3%) from your math (I know, this is your chance of scoring a triple).

So, you're saying that in order to find out the chance of a hit scoring a crit and detonating some ammo, I should ignore the chance to crit?

I think we're done here. You're not interested in what's happening, you're just interested in twisting reality until you're right.

Class dismissed.

[Alex Warden]

stjobe, on 19 January 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

In practice, the chance of ammo explosion is way, way below 10%.

i´d say somewhere between 1 and 5% ... i know my ammo gets destroyed very often, but an explosion? didn´t happen for a long time now ...

[Joseph Mallan]

Toong, on 19 January 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

A good rule of thumb is this: If you see a problem, and think the solution is

A: a simple value change that, somehow, no one came up with before, or
B: to change said values by more than a couple percent,

then you have almost certainly not given the problem enough thought, and are probably wrong.



Making ammo explode 100% of the time is too far in the other direction. No matter where you store your ammo, with a 100% explosion rate, you'd see explosions as the cause of death shoot waaay past acceptable limits. I have no idea how to do the math, but probably something in the 30-40 percent range? Considering that ammo explosions are typically fatal to a 'mech that could have otherwise kept going, you'd also see a huge spike in premature deaths.

Carrying a CASE can stop the immediate death sentence, but it won't stop the explosion from taking off enough of your 'mech to make death a foregone conclusion. Basically you'd be removing structural hitpoints altogether, since the first crit would spell the destruction of that section.

If this were implemented, most people would probably stop using them altogether. That's the opposite of balance.

No its not! Ammo blows up 100% of the time it is hit on TT. I carry lots of ammo and should explode in a spectacular fashion for doing so. I see so many players unwilling to pay for their decisions it's painful. Part of playing a thinking mans game is actually thinking about the consequences that your build brings to the dance. Gauss and Ammo blows up 100% when hit. It is both necessary and fun to watch. Even if it is my own Mech!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 January 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[Tesunie]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

No its not! Ammo blows up 100% of the time it is hit on TT. I carry lots of ammo and should explode in a spectacular fashion for doing so. I see so many players unwilling to pay for their decisions it's painful. Part of playing a thinking mans game is actually thinking about the consequences that your build brings to the dance. Gauss and Ammo blows up 100% when hit. It is both necessary and fun to watch. Even if it is my own Mech!

But to counter that concept between TT and MWO, we have more health, so we need to bring more ammo just to be able to do the same theoretical damage here. In TT, a single ton of ammo can normally fairly comfortably supply a weapon for most of the game. Here, I need 3-4 tons to do the same, just to last more than a few moments in the game.

Our weapons also shoot faster, meaning we go through more ammo even sooner than expected. This also means we need more ammo to help accommodate that. (I'm not saying we should load up with 5-6 tons of ammo for a single AC and have no consequences, but to last about the same time here in a match as in a TT match, we need more, so the chances should probably be diminished a little.) We still should go pop though from time to time (probably more frequently than we currently do).

I just feel that a 100% chance of a bin exploding would be too much, or at least too much of a chance to happen all at once. I'd like to see a slow bump up and see how it works before committing all the way.

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

I think you were engaging in some wishful thinking when you said you were "very good at math".

103 math average for most of my school career. Presidents Award for Math Performance. I do know math. However, it's been... oh... wow... almost 10+ years since I seriously looked at some heavy math stuff...

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Triple crits occur 3% of the time, 3 in 100, which is a lot less than 42%, 42 in 100. Yes, making three bins explode is a 30% chance, but that's ignoring actually getting the triple crit in the first place, which is a very slim chance in and of itself.

Once more then, you have to
1. get a triple crit (3%)
2. have them hit ammo bins and not something else (lets assume they do, 100%)
3. have that ammo explode (10% chance each, 30% chance for one of the three)

Which means, the chance to get a triple crit and have ammo explode is 0.03 * 0.3 = 0.009 = 0.9%.

However, you said a flat "My best chances of getting an ammo explosion with a single hit is 4.2%". Did you include the 9% chance that you might score a triple crit? Double crit?

You mentioned that, no matter how much ammo one stores in a side, the max chance you have of getting an ammo explosion is 4.2%. But, I present, what if you get a double crit in that 42% chance of critting? A triple crit? I'm just saying that, having more than one ammo crit DOES increase the chance of an explosion happening, as you can actually hit more than one ammo crit in a single shot. Are the chances good that you will score multiple crits in a single shot? Not so likely, but when it does happen, it makes having multiple crits of ammo more hazardous, instead of just a 4.2% (or a flat 10% when it is destroyed).

As I stated, you are looking at this as a per shot, single crit (for ease of math, and I understand that too). I'm looking at this as "I have 8 tons of ammo, that is 8 chances someone can explode me. If they all get crit, that's an 80% chance (8x0.10=0.80=80%) that I will go pop on one of my ammo bins being destroyed. (Especially if you destroy a section and I still have ammo there, as then every piece of ammo left in the section being destroyed has a 10% chance of exploding on me. These "crits" are guaranteed to be applied upon destruction of the section.)

My Maths:
Crit numbers for MWO is 25%, 16%, and 3%.
(This is presuming that there is only ammo there, as per all our other math, best chances of the crit hitting just ammo).

The equation that I used is:
(Crit chance) x (Ammo explosion chance x Crit hits) = Total percent of ammo explosion chance per shot

If you only HAVE one ton of ammo, your total chances of a single shot criting and exploding:
0.25 x 0.10 = 0.025 = 2.5%
0.16 x 0.10 = 0.016 = 1.6%
0.03 x 0.10 = 0.003 = 0.3%
Total for a single ammo crit possible to hit: 2.5% + 1.6% + 0.3% = 4.4%

With 2 ammo crits available:
0.25 x 0.10 = 0.025 = 2.5%
0.16 x 0.20 = 0.032 = 3.2%
0.03 x 0.20 = 0.006 = 0.6%
Total for a single shot with 2 ammo crits possible: 2.5% + 3.2% + 0.6% = 6.3%

If someone has 3 or MORE crits of ammo:
0.25 x 0.10 = 0.025 = 2.5%
0.16 x 0.20 = 0.032 = 3.2%
0.03 x 0.30 = 0.009 = 0.9%
Total crit chances per shot: 2.5% + 3.2% + 0.9% = 6.6%

As I said, the chances of causing an ammo explosion crit is INCREASED when there are MORE THAN ONE crit slot of ammo in the exposed section. (All math is presumed to hit the ammo slot, and is presuming that there is nothing but ammo in that location to crit. These are your best chances of causing an ammo explosion in a single hit.)

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

I'm actually assuming we hit ammo bins 100% of the time; if I didn't, the chance would dwindle far beyond 0.9%.

Agreed... We are going for "best possible chance" of it happening. The more numbers involved, the more complicated the math, the longer it takes, the harder it is to follow. Best to "keep it simple stupid", right?

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

I'm tripling the chance of getting an ammo explosion from 10% to 30% because we have three hits occurring, how is that diminishing anything?

You are forgetting to include the chance of the other crits. You are only doing a part of the math. Look above for farther math explanation. However, I was trying to relay to you that, with more crits of ammo, there is a larger chance of a crit ammo explosion. View above, as I separated the math into three categories to help make a clearer picture of what I am talking about. Notice the end percentages. That, was what I was talking about (and the formula for it wasn't coming to me yesterday on how to figure it out).

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

When calculating the chances of getting a triple crit, it is indeed "a triple crit or nothing".

The 42% we were talking about in previous posts is the total chance of getting any kind of crit, so it's not like I "forget" anything.

If you want to calculate the chances of getting a double crit and having one of those crits explode some ammo, feel free. I've done the math for any crit (42%) and triple crits (3%). The chance to score a double crit is 14%, off you go. Don't forget to show your work.

Review above again. It's not "Triple or nothing", as that is only a third of the math needed to calculate the effects of having multiple crit slots of ammo, and how multiple crit chances are applied. They aren't applied on their own, but instead are used to boost the crit chances of the shot overall. Hence, it shouldn't be getting diminishing returns, but should be better overall and in the end compared to a single crit chance (as in, a single crit slot of ammo's chance).

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Which I accounted for in my calculation by
1. assuming all crits hit ammo bins
2. tripling the chance of an ammo explosion, from 10% to 30%

3% * 30% is still 0.9%, sorry.

Review above.

stjobe, on 21 January 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

So, you're saying that in order to find out the chance of a hit scoring a crit and detonating some ammo, I should ignore the chance to crit?

I think we're done here. You're not interested in what's happening, you're just interested in twisting reality until you're right.

Class dismissed.

I was saying, with increase ammo crit slots come increased chance to explode. Maybe not in one shot, but overall.

However, even with a SINGLE shot, it still increases the chance. Overall chance from 4.4% to 6.6%. I wasn't talking about large numbers, but it still is an increase, and that was what I was trying to convey.

Edit: For clarity: AKA: I need to learn to watch what I say. Difference between now and not...

Edited by Tesunie, 21 January 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[topgun505]

Internal structure crits (actuators) currently cannot be hit. Same with engine crits (although that will likely change).

stjobe, on 19 January 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

It's 10% chance to get an ammo explosion, and to damage ammo you need to crit it (which is a 42% chance for most weapons).

So, to get that ammo to explode you need to:
* fire at an exposed section with ammo in it.
* crit (42% chance).
* have the crit do damage to the ammo bin and not e.g. the hip actuator (crits are randomly distributed).
* have that crit do enough damage to destroy the ammo bin.
* then, and only then, do you have a 10% chance to get an ammo explosion.

In practice, the chance of ammo explosion is way, way below 10%.

[Tesunie]

And if you have, say, 3 weapons hit you at the same time in the weak section. All 3 weapons have a chance to crit (of if they stripped the armor that was there and hit internals). Following the math, if you had nothing but ammo (we will presume 12 crits of ammo for simplicity sake, and that those where 3 AC10/PPC shots).

If someone has 3 or MORE crits of ammo:
0.25 x 0.10 = 0.025 = 2.5%
0.16 x 0.20 = 0.032 = 3.2%
0.03 x 0.30 = 0.009 = 0.9%
Total crit chances per shot: 2.5% + 3.2% + 0.9% = 6.6%

That is per weapon hitting. With 3 of them hitting, take the total and multiply by 3.
0.066 x 3 = 0.198 = 19.8%

That is a 19.8% chance that one of those hits are going to explode a piece of ammo. And that's only with 3 weapons hitting it! In TT, all 3 weapons would probably not hit the same location. In MWO, all 3 commonly do.

If the ammo explosion chance was 100%:
0.25 x 1 = 0.25 = 25%
0.16 x 2 = 0.32 = 32%
0.03 x 3 = 0.09 = 9%

25% + 32% + 9% = 66% chance of a single hit will cause an ammo explosion if there are 3 or more ammo crits to hit (and that is all you are able to hit).

With 3 weapons hitting the same spot:
0.66 x 3 = 1.98 = 198% of getting an ammo explosion with one of them. (This is where percentages get funky, and I know there is a formula for it, but I can't recall it right now. Anyone know how to multiply percentages.)



So, to conclude, if we had it set to 100% explosion rate when hit and destroyed, you are saying you want people to die from ammo explosions 66% of the time (at best odds for you, worse for them) from a single shot. That's 2 out of every 3 shots causing an ammo explosion crit.


(I haven't forgotten that there can be other crits reducing your chance of an ammo explosion, but the other crits are normally just as vital to the mechs function as the ammo is, so you can't "look at only the ammo explosion rate", but look at the "chance to disable components on the target", such as weapons being used to defend oneself, and sinks being used to keep the mech going in the heat of combat.)

[Yiazmat]

"So, to conclude, if we had it set to 100% explosion rate when hit and destroyed, you are saying you want people to die from ammo explosions 66% of the time (at best odds for you, worse for them) from a single shot. That's 2 out of every 3 shots causing an ammo explosion crit."

YES! there needs to be consequences to those builds! That's the whole point.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yiazmat, on 21 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

"So, to conclude, if we had it set to 100% explosion rate when hit and destroyed, you are saying you want people to die from ammo explosions 66% of the time (at best odds for you, worse for them) from a single shot. That's 2 out of every 3 shots causing an ammo explosion crit."

YES! there needs to be consequences to those builds! That's the whole point.

That's part f the reason there was not 7 tons of ammo on most Builds. So there was less chance of ammo explosion. It was a risk reward balance.

[wanderer]

Quote

That's part f the reason there was not 7 tons of ammo on most Builds. So there was less chance of ammo explosion. It was a risk reward balance.

Well, except for anything with significant numbers of LRM tubes. Heck, 6 tons of LRM ammo with 2x15 launchers is actually shorting the 'Mech, seven is about right. Never mind anything with more...

[Tesunie]

Yiazmat, on 21 January 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

"So, to conclude, if we had it set to 100% explosion rate when hit and destroyed, you are saying you want people to die from ammo explosions 66% of the time (at best odds for you, worse for them) from a single shot. That's 2 out of every 3 shots causing an ammo explosion crit."

YES! there needs to be consequences to those builds! That's the whole point.

So, 2/3s of shots will kill a mech with no armor, probably as soon as that armor is breached. We have multiple weapons hitting a single section at a time (unlike TT), so we can have that increased to a massive chance with just 2-3 AC10s/PPCs/Gauss/AC20s/etc. You want to make direct damage weapons even more powerful than they currently are? And lasers and lower ACs even weaker?

What about the "poor LRM users", who need 3-4 tons just to last half a match most times, even with selectively shooting the missiles at clear targets (instead of everything).

I think the proposed 30% chance might be a better concept:
0.25 x 0.30 = 0.075 = 7.5%
0.16 x 0.60 = 0.096 = 9.6%
0.03 x 0.90 = 0.027 = 2.7%
Total: 7.5% + 9.6% + 2.7% = 19.8%

Increasing the explosion chance to 30% makes it a 19.8% chance of exploding ammo in a single shot.

Make that a 2 PPC + 1 AC10 = 3 weapons hitting the same location at once + as soon as it punches through armor it can cause crits (even with the shot that punches through armor).

19.8% x 3 = 59.4% chance a single ammo will get crit, destroyed and exploded.

For 2 PPC +1 AC10, that can be "first shot in the game, hits you, and blows you use without you even doing anything". I'm sure that's a load of fun with a ~198% chance of it happening (with 100% explosion rate with ammo). OR we can keep the current ~20%, OR I feel the ~59.4% chance of it happening with the 30% explosion rate on ammo might be decent...

Include the fact that many weapon systems will be hitting the same location at once, unlike TT...

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 21 January 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Well, except for anything with significant numbers of LRM tubes. Heck, 6 tons of LRM ammo with 2x15 launchers is actually shorting the 'Mech, seven is about right. Never mind anything with more...

Archer made in work on TT with 4 tons... I used 11 tons in CB... just to be sure I didn't run out!
@Tesunie, we also have faster recycle than TT so we are throw twice as much ordinance in half the time (with an LRM20)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 January 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Alex Warden, on 21 January 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

i´d say somewhere between 1 and 5% ... i know my ammo gets destroyed very often, but an explosion? didn´t happen for a long time now ...

Read. The. Thread. The maths is on the first page.

Hint: Between 0.5 and 1.5% under any realistic circumstances, with a trend towards the lower end.

Tesunie, on 21 January 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

But to counter that concept between TT and MWO, we have more health, so we need to bring more ammo just to be able to do the same theoretical damage here. In TT, a single ton of ammo can normally fairly comfortably supply a weapon for most of the game. Here, I need 3-4 tons to do the same, just to last more than a few moments in the game.

Our weapons also shoot faster, meaning we go through more ammo even sooner than expected. This also means we need more ammo to help accommodate that. (I'm not saying we should load up with 5-6 tons of ammo for a single AC and have no consequences, but to last about the same time here in a match as in a TT match, we need more, so the chances should probably be diminished a little.) We still should go pop though from time to time (probably more frequently than we currently do).

Narp. To counter that we have the massively important advantage of pinpoint damage application. Inflated hitpoints reduce the relative damage of lasers more than pinpoint projectiles.

Tesunie, on 21 January 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

However, you said a flat "My best chances of getting an ammo explosion with a single hit is 4.2%". Did you include the 9% chance that you might score a triple crit? Double crit?

You mentioned that, no matter how much ammo one stores in a side, the max chance you have of getting an ammo explosion is 4.2%. But, I present, what if you get a double crit in that 42% chance of critting? A triple crit? I'm just saying that, having more than one ammo crit DOES increase the chance of an explosion happening, as you can actually hit more than one ammo crit in a single shot. Are the chances good that you will score multiple crits in a single shot? Not so likely, but when it does happen, it makes having multiple crits of ammo more hazardous, instead of just a 4.2% (or a flat 10% when it is destroyed).

As I stated, you are looking at this as a per shot, single crit (for ease of math, and I understand that too). I'm looking at this as "I have 8 tons of ammo, that is 8 chances someone can explode me. If they all get crit, that's an 80% chance (8x0.10=0.80=80%) that I will go pop on one of my ammo bins being destroyed. (Especially if you destroy a section and I still have ammo there, as then every piece of ammo left in the section being destroyed has a 10% chance of exploding on me. These "crits" are guaranteed to be applied upon destruction of the section.)

As I said, the chances of causing an ammo explosion crit is INCREASED when there are MORE THAN ONE crit slot of ammo in the exposed section. (All math is presumed to hit the ammo slot, and is presuming that there is nothing but ammo in that location to crit. These are your best chances of causing an ammo explosion in a single hit.)

If you have nothing but ammo in a location then the chance of ammo explosion is the same whether you have 1 ton or 12 tons. This is because MW:O determines if a hit produces a crit (our nominal theoretical 0.42 chance, although this actually varies by weapon) and then randomly assigns that crit to a filled critslot in that location. Empty critslots cannot be critted. Ergo if all filled critslots in your side torso are ammo, chance of crit assignment to ammo is 100%, irrespective of the gross amount. This is why people critpad their Gauss, and did it for their non-explosive AC/20 as best they could back when it was made of paper.

Tesunie, on 21 January 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

So, to conclude, if we had it set to 100% explosion rate when hit and destroyed, you are saying you want people to die from ammo explosions 66% of the time (at best odds for you, worse for them) from a single shot. That's 2 out of every 3 shots causing an ammo explosion crit.

If you're going to to factor in multiple weapon strike for your odds, you need to also include the chances of doing enough crit damage to actually kill an ammo bin. Bear in mind in that case, that your weapons are not directly summative if they don't kill an ammo bin in one shot because if you do 15 crit damage, spread 5 to each of 3 ammo bins, you get no explosion.

[Malora Sidewinder]

I actually logged in just to tell you how utterly moronic your suggestion is given the current meta. In the first place I highly doubt that this change would add anything positive to the game given a healthy and stable meta with equal balance between the weapons, but that's a luxury that we don't have and as such is a separate argument entirely.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that in a healthy meta the above changes would be something other than detrimental (although in passing i'd like to state that I wholeheartedly feel it would suck tremendously) for a moment here... this change would just make ppcs even more broken than they currently are, and the only people who would enjoy that are the elitist mlgpro tryhards that nobody likes anyway.

You're going to severely weaken a weapon group that as is could be stated to be underpowered already while adding nothing and giving their rival weapon a very severe indirect buff? Are you serious? I find it hard to believe that someone could actually be that stupid. If you are trolling, then we'll done. You've rustled my jimmies, mission accomplished.

[Tesunie]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

That's part f the reason there was not 7 tons of ammo on most Builds. So there was less chance of ammo explosion. It was a risk reward balance.

TT:
- Random hit locations when you hit.

MWO:
- Double armor (and double structure too)
- Ammo only got a 20% increase (last I recall)
- Some weapon mechanics in MWO don't do damage similar to TT (LRMs/SRMs/SSRMs anyone)
- To do the same equivalent damage in MWO as you would in TT, you need about twice the ammo or more.
- You can focus your fire power on weakened areas of a mech, intentionally causing crit chances/multiple chances from several weapons hitting at once.
- Instant convergence.

In MWO, compared to TT, we need to take more ammo just to really preform out role. A stock build here doesn't have the ammo it needs to preform for more than a few moments. In 12v12, there is even more health. A single ton of ammo (in most cases) might drop a single mech, but probably wont.

If you run LRMs, you are in even more of a pickle with ammo. With ECM being considered, AMS, terrain, and their slow travel speed, you need more ammo as (my stats say) only about 33% of it will hit the target. So, right there, I need more ammo. Then, add to that, LRMs actually do kinda have the random hit location, but instead of being grouped in bundles of 5 hitting a location, it's every missile for itself. This makes the LRMs need even more ammo, to actually do enough damage/weakening of a target to drop it. An LRM mech needs probably 2 tons just to drop a single target.

In MWO, we need more ammo to do the same job as it would in TT. This increases the crit spaces (and tonnage) used by ammo. Add to that the fact people can aim for weakened spaces most times, and multiple weapons can/will hit the same location at the same time, we can inflate the chance right there.

If, say, I only needed 1 ton of ammo and be decent for most of a match, like in TT, then okay. When I need 2-3x the amount of ammo as TT to do the same effects (or more), then no, we can no longer follow that TT rule as closely.


The very amount of ammo we need to take in MWO to just function would be insane in TT, and completely unneeded in all but the longest of matches (but then you have more mechs usually), or in a campaign with no refills possible between sessions (or something like that). Otherwise, for example, one ton of AC20 ammo was normally enough to last the life of the mech. If not the whole game. If you ran out, then you lasted a rather long time.

[Joseph Mallan]

TT Targetting computers with Large Pulse Lasers and a 2 Gunner could be quite accurate removing up to 50 damage from one locaction (that's 100 damage here).

A Stock build has nearly exactly the ammo as was described in Canon fluff... about 1 minute of continuous fire.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's part f the reason there was not 7 tons of ammo on most Builds. So there was less chance of ammo explosion. It was a risk reward balance.

No the reason was because you simply didnt need 7 tons of ammo in tabletop. MWO has triple the rate of fire, triple range, and double armor, so you need way more ammo than tabletop.

Besides RNG should never destroy your mech. Its a poor game mechanic. Ammo explosions should occur 100% of the time but do a survivable amount of damage (~20 damage per bind of ammo is fine). That would eliminate the RNG of ammo explosions by making them much more consistent in how much damage they do. Ballistics should also be balanced in other ways, because its quite frankly idiotic to try and balance ballistics by making ammo explosions more volatile.

CASE should also reduce ammo explosion damage in the same location by 50%-100% so CASE is actually useful.

Lastly there should be an ammo ejection feature, so you can eject ammo if your ballistic/missile weapon systems are destroyed. It makes no sense to be carrying ammo after those weapons have been destroyed. Tabletop and every other mechwarrior game had that feature.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[wanderer]

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TT Targetting computers with Large Pulse Lasers and a 2 Gunner could be quite accurate removing up to 50 damage from one locaction (that's 100 damage here).

By the TT rulebook, targeting computers cannot be used with pulse lasers to make aimed shots.

[Khobai]

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By the TT rulebook, targeting computers cannot be used with pulse lasers to make aimed shots.

Yeah they got rid of that in the most recent editions because it was quite frankly overpowered.