26 replies to this topic

[Thorqemada]

So, as there is some debate if the Gauss is weak i tested it myself and i am impressed!
I wont write much text - only some numbers for comparison:

Wpn Accuracy # Dmg/Hit # (Wpn-Norm)

Gauss 61,9% 17,1 (15)
AC20 57,5% 19,4 (20)
AC10 63,5% 10,2 (10)
LBX10 61,8% 7,3 (10)
PPC ER 51,1% 10,1 (10)
PPC 52,5% 8,3 (10)
LL ER 82,7% 4,5 (_9)
ML 83,8% 2,6 (_5)

AC2/5 <40% xxx
SRM <40% xxx
MG ~44% xxx
LRM ~23% xxx (Small Number LRM usage for me - i dont use Superboats)
SSRM ~70% xxx (to scare Lights - less than 6 Tubes wont really do that)

The Stats show why Big Barrel Ballistics be King - easy to use, easy to hit with, superior damage per hit, best synergies with tactics.

The Gauss is no exception and aside of fighting Lights even a good brawling weapon with excellent damage values, a good ammo count and excellent heat values allowing it to be mixed with high heat weapons.

Laser Weapons have high accuracy but lack "Damage per Hit" and demand an increased exposure time to enemy return fire.
Rapid and Spread Fire Weapons be significant weaker (more misses, worse hit detection).

The ER PPC/PPC seem to have some convergence issues - at least for me - the ER PPC somehow does apply damage better.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 January 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I guess YMMV!

My most accurate weapons are my Small(84%) then Medium lasers(80%)
Ballistics are accurate between 40-57 percent with Ultra at a lousy 30% an AC10 the king at 57%!

So what was it you were trying to say again? That you have pretty good results with BFGs?

[Rhaythe]

Gauss/AC20 have very limited ammo per ton. Generally speaking, people are more conservative with limited ammo stocks. Another reason PPCs are so popular.

*looks at stats*
Oddly enough, every since one of my ballistics hovers at 65% accuracy, with the AC20 winning out at 67%. The UAC/5, however, is the outlier at 57%. Needs more dakka, I suppose.

Edited by Rhaythe, 23 January 2014 - 05:53 AM.

[Thorqemada]

For example:
A - The Gauss is NOT a weak weapon.
B - Ballistic are superior to anything else
C - Hit detection works better for Ballistics with a lower fire rate.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 January 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[fandre]

IMO, heavier weapons have less ammo and players are using it more carefully. They aim better or relinquish a shot. Weapons with more ammo leads to more and less careful shoots

[Thorqemada]

I walked behind an Orion for 30 seconds at 50 m distance slowly closing in at straight line.
I fired AC2, ML an SSRM without pause.
The only hit registering frequently where the SSRM.
Despite having my target reticule straight in the center of his back the few AC and Laser hits registering where spread all over the mech head to toe, left to right.

That is when Spectators say People are horrible Shots - that is most often what the sever interpolates from the data of your Clientside aim.

I guess that the aiming Interpolation is needing more dev time for a "Steady Aim" algorithm.

PS: Watched the Stream today and wonder why Sean Lang in a 4 LL Awesome never gets a hot map.....Lucky *******.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 January 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Skyfaller]

ROF is not trumped by front loaded damage. That is why you see the AC20 and Gauss being a much better a choice than an AC2 or AC5.

The Jager DD is an excellent mech to showcase this. Triple AC2 with macro fire does not defeat the damage of the AC20 or gauss in the same time (Triple AC2 firing 0.5 secs each gun is 12 damage per second..in the 4 seconds reload time of the AC20/Gauss the AC2 has inflicted 48 damage.

So, triple AC2 @ 6 tons per gun (18 tons) doing 48 damage in 4 seconds does look better than dual AC20/Gauss weighing 28 & 30 tons respectively doing 40 and 30 damage respectively.

.. but the reality is, the AC2 has to keep hitting the target in the same component for 4 seconds to achieve that. A virtual impossibility unless that mech shuts down. The AC2 mech has to keep his front armor facing the target as well which means he can't spread any incoming damage around. In contrast, the AC20/Gauss lands all its damage in one armor section...and when it fires the weapon it can twist torso, maneuver and spread damage around his mech during the reload time. Finally, heat in the AC2 builds up nonstop to higher levels than even the dual AC20 fired under ghost heat in those 4 seconds.. the Dual AC20 even with ghost heat cools down enough to fire the AC20's twice in chain fire before reaching near shutdown heat.

No matter how you look at it, the bigger ballistics have all the benefits and advantages and it is absurd to load smaller ballistics (aside from MG) if you can just load the bigger one if DAMAGE is your aim.

AC2 is only really worth using as a suppression weapon and only when used at very long range (1200m+).

Edited by Skyfaller, 23 January 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Skyfaller, on 23 January 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

AC2 is only really worth using as a suppression weapon and only when used at very long range (1200m+).

This guy gets it.

Each ballistic has a purpose and a use. It's not just "do damage", but "do damage under X conditions".

[Joseph Mallan]

Thorqemada, on 23 January 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

For example:
A - The Gauss is NOT a weak weapon.
B - Ballistic are superior to anything else
C - Hit detection works better for Ballistics with a lower fire rate.

So we need to improve the weaker weapons I see!

Skyfaller, on 23 January 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

ROF is not trumped by front loaded damage. That is why you see the AC20 and Gauss being a much better a choice than an AC2 or AC5.

The Jager DD is an excellent mech to showcase this. Triple AC2 with macro fire does not defeat the damage of the AC20 or gauss in the same time (Triple AC2 firing 0.5 secs each gun is 12 damage per second..in the 4 seconds reload time of the AC20/Gauss the AC2 has inflicted 48 damage.

So, triple AC2 @ 6 tons per gun (18 tons) doing 48 damage in 4 seconds does look better than dual AC20/Gauss weighing 28 & 30 tons respectively doing 40 and 30 damage respectively.

.. but the reality is, the AC2 has to keep hitting the target in the same component for 4 seconds to achieve that. A virtual impossibility unless that mech shuts down. The AC2 mech has to keep his front armor facing the target as well which means he can't spread any incoming damage around. In contrast, the AC20/Gauss lands all its damage in one armor section...and when it fires the weapon it can twist torso, maneuver and spread damage around his mech during the reload time. Finally, heat in the AC2 builds up nonstop to higher levels than even the dual AC20 fired under ghost heat in those 4 seconds.. the Dual AC20 even with ghost heat cools down enough to fire the AC20's twice in chain fire before reaching near shutdown heat.

No matter how you look at it, the bigger ballistics have all the benefits and advantages and it is absurd to load smaller ballistics (aside from MG) if you can just load the bigger one if DAMAGE is your aim.

AC2 is only really worth using as a suppression weapon and only when used at very long range (1200m+).

Respectfully they shouldn't death by papercuts takes time an effort that a simple BFH does not need.

[Gladewolf]

Thorqemada, on 23 January 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

For example:
A - The Gauss is NOT a weak weapon.
B - Ballistic are superior to anything else
C - Hit detection works better for Ballistics with a lower fire rate.

..Are you trying to say that further repair to hit detection will improve weapon performance for lasers and small caliber ballistics?

[Skyfaller]

Rhaythe, on 23 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

This guy gets it.

Each ballistic has a purpose and a use. It's not just "do damage", but "do damage under X conditions".

My point was that for the meta of the game; destroying enemy mechs, boating the AC2 is a **** poor choice compared to a Gauss boat.

Do X damage under X conditions only means you will die when the heavier ballistic user decides to deal damage to you under his X conditions. Ergo, a Dual Gauss is not going to be defeated by a triple AC2 boat simply because the dual Gauss has 4 seconds to twist torso and move around while the AC2 boat has to keep a steady aim and thus make himself an easy 'shoot my CT' target every time the Gauss can fire.

Joseph Mallan, on 23 January 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Respectfully they shouldn't death by papercuts takes time an effort that a simple BFH does not need.

That is the point. The papercuts just don't work in this game. Taking time just means the guy with front loaded damage (gauss/ac20/ppc) use that time to make the lighter/higher ROF gun damage become irrelevant by turning torso to spread said damage around.

[Thorqemada]

When Hit detection was introduced first (Step 1: Laser-HSR) i was piloting a CN9-AL (1ERLL, 3xML, 2xSSRM or 2xLRM).
I did not Play much that time but it almost felt like cheating bcs my damage output doubled.

Since then the Laserdamage is back to pre-HSR values but the target flashes now when you aim direct at it instead into the Air ahead of it like in the past.

At all i feel the TTK is very short pretty often and it should be more a "Meeting in the Middle" between Lasers and Ballistics and a complete new implementation of Missile Mechanics.

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 January 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[darkchylde]

fandre, on 23 January 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

IMO, heavier weapons have less ammo and players are using it more carefully. They aim better or relinquish a shot. Weapons with more ammo leads to more and less careful shoots

I have yet to run out of ammo on any of my ballistic mechs. My Cataphract can spam non stop - 3UAC5's, 4AC5's, 3AC10 and nothing is funnier then watching 4 mechs cower in fear from the barrage and scoring a kill or two in the process. And all they had to show for it, was a few laser hits.

[Jman5]

Something to keep in mind about weapon accuracy is that it's calculated differently depending on the weapon.

LB10X: If any of the 10 pellets hits a mech, it registers as 100% accuracy. So you get an artificially inflated number here.
Lasers: If your laser brushes a target for just 1 tick of damage and then you miss for 99.9% of the beam's duration it still registers as a 100% hit. This is why lasers tend to have such high accuracy numbers.
SRMs/LRMs: Missiles are individually tracked for accuracy so you wind up with an accurate accuracy number. However it will also trend much lower even if we excuse the hit-registration issues.

Why are Gauss Accuracy numbers relatively high?
My guess has to do with the incredibly high projectile speed makes it much easier to hit targets. Couple that with the slow rate of fire makes it less of a spray and pray like the ac/2.

[Serpieri]

Ballistics are just better - they fire faster and generate a lot less heat and are not hampered by ghost heat. Energy weapons are in need of buffs, the heat system also needs to be reworked. I had to learn from other players about ghost heat, and how DHS aren't the real thing. Why isn't this information made accessible for new players?

Edited by Serpieri, 23 January 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Serpieri, on 23 January 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ballistics are just better - they fire faster and generate a lot less heat and not hampered by ghost heat. Energy weapons are in need of buffs, the heat system also needs to be reworked. I had to learn from other players about ghost heat, and how DHS aren't the real thing. Why isn't this information made accessible for new players?

BoomJagers and AC2 boats disagree with you mightily.

As for the information being made accessible, you are 100% correct. This game desperately needs a mechlab and heat mechanics tutorial.

[Joseph Mallan]

Skyfaller, on 23 January 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

My point was that for the meta of the game; destroying enemy mechs, boating the AC2 is a **** poor choice compared to a Gauss boat.

Do X damage under X conditions only means you will die when the heavier ballistic user decides to deal damage to you under his X conditions. Ergo, a Dual Gauss is not going to be defeated by a triple AC2 boat simply because the dual Gauss has 4 seconds to twist torso and move around while the AC2 boat has to keep a steady aim and thus make himself an easy 'shoot my CT' target every time the Gauss can fire.



That is the point. The papercuts just don't work in this game. Taking time just means the guy with front loaded damage (gauss/ac20/ppc) use that time to make the lighter/higher ROF gun damage become irrelevant by turning torso to spread said damage around.

I come from a place where if you fight to long you are going to get hurt. Sounder advice I have never known when it comes to combat. Even when it is just for fun.

[Thorqemada]

Imho the question is if a game about fighting Mechs makes much sense if this fighting does not occur bcs certain Setups of certain Weapon Systems deny fighting/backfighting at all and simply Kill on Sight?



PS: It may be a tactical success and a sign of big skill to kill a Lance of Atlases in 12 seconds and the preferred real world tactic but its a very bad game that way^^

Edited by Thorqemada, 23 January 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Screech]

Skyfaller, on 23 January 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

AC2 is only really worth using as a suppression weapon and only when used at very long range (1200m+).

1200m+ is a waste of ammo for an AC2 really. 700-1km is the sweet spot if you want to do damage and get kills. AC2 shines when you use it to be the second gun on a mech while your teammate pins then target.

But you are right about the suppression, nothing short of a arty/air strike performs area denial like a well placed quad AC2.

[lsp]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 January 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I come from a place where if you fight to long you are going to get hurt. Sounder advice I have never known when it comes to combat. Even when it is just for fun.

Best advice I've gotten was the best defense is a good offense. Specially true in martial arts, if someone has you on your heels the best way to stop them from aggressing you is to hit back. It applies to everything, including video games. for me anyway.

Screech, on 23 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

1200m+ is a waste of ammo for an AC2 really. 700-1km is the sweet spot if you want to do damage and get kills. AC2 shines when you use it to be the second gun on a mech while your teammate pins then target.

But you are right about the suppression, nothing short of a arty/air strike performs area denial like a well placed quad AC2.

ac2's do the most dps in the game. Also triple ultras work pretty well, people usually run away or start torso twisting. Or stand there and die, that happens pretty regularly too.

Edited by lsp, 24 January 2014 - 01:00 AM.