633 replies to this topic

[J0anna]

The problem isn't Elo, it's the matchmaker. In MM terms, 12 Trebuchets (average Elo 1100) vs 12 Highlanders (average Elo 1100) in skirmish mode is a great match. However, the lighter team has very little chance to win in this scenario. There is no base to cap, and since players are approximately the same skill, the greater firepower and hit points will (on average) carry the heavier team to victory most of the time.

While I believe Elo should be part of the MM equation and is better than raw weight matching, it needs to be modified by Build Value (BV) (or weight) and possibly by whether you are in a group or solo, and by your 'experience' (i.e. number of drops). It is not very hard at all to set up a simple equation and use that in the MM to group people. For Example:

(Elo+BV)*(group factor)*(experience factor) = scoring value

And to use that in the Match Maker. This would also help with the upcoming weight limits that PGI is hinting about. My issue with weight limits is that it hurts newer pilots most (i.e. a new pilot wants to learn the Assault class mechs - well he must either drop solo, or group with a few light mechs to meet weight limits. Light mechs that will fight very differently than he does, sure we (the players) can make it work, but it would be easier if he dropped with another assault or two who can directly show him what to do).

Edited by Moenrg, 25 January 2014 - 04:42 PM.

[RichAC]

Moenrg, on 25 January 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

The problem isn't Elo, it's the matchmaker. In MM terms, 12 Trebuchets (average Elo 1100) vs 12 Highlanders (average Elo 1100) in skirmish mode is a great match. However, the lighter team has very little chance to win in this scenario. There is no base to cap, and since players are approximately the same skill, the greater firepower and hit points will (on average) carry the heavier team to victory most of the time.

While I believe Elo should be part of the MM equation and is better than raw weight matching, it needs to be modified by Build Value (BV) (or weight) and possibly by whether you are in a group or solo, and by your 'experience' (i.e. number of drops). It is not very hard at all to set up a simple equation and use that in the MM to group people. For Example:

(Elo+BV)*(group factor)*(experience factor) = scoring value

And to use that in the Match Maker. This would also help with the upcoming weight limits that PGI is hinting about. My issue with weight limits is that it hurts newer pilots most (i.e. a new pilot wants to learn the Assault class mechs - well he must either drop solo, or group with a few light mechs to meet weight limits. Light mechs that will fight very differently than he does, sure we (the players) can make it work, but it would be easier if he dropped with another assault or two who can directly show him what to do).

What you mean to say is that in skirmish mode, it actually ISN"T a great match. I agree with you it probably won't be most of the time. But we have to remember some people aren't good in assault mechs, and get more dmg and kills in a shadowhawk, jager or ctf, or w/e. . Even though maybe for most this isn't the case. A balanced weighted team definitely makes the most sense in conquest.

Also I think a public CW lobby will address this problem, without having to change any formula. I encourage people to just play that game mode when the time comes if they are worried about weight vs skill.

And I just hope they keep a game mode where anyone can drop in w/e they want at anytime.

Edited by RichAC, 25 January 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

Okay. Now I get it. Let me make this clear since perhaps I haven't already, or if I did it was buried in a wall of text -

Nobody, me or PGI or anyone else, is saying a pure Elo equation is a good choice for the matchmaker in MW:O.

Elo is the equation that ranks people based on win/loss rate. That equation is critical - it's the foundation of the MW:O matchmaker, TrueSkill, Glicko, LoLs matchmaker, you name it.

Your Elo score is a prediction of your odds of winning a given match. In a team game that needs additional modifications - for example the Gaussian distribution I've mentioned. It essentially means that lower skilled players have a bigger negative impact on a teams performance than good players have a positive influence and that being ranked REALLY high is way, way tough and being ranked REALLY low is way, way tougher, since your performance is always filtered through the performance of the team.

The key point I'm arguing with Rich and others is that you can't modify Elo with damage score, kills, assists, that sort of thing. You modify it by what chassis you're piloting, what weapons you're carrying and how likely you've been in the past to win or lose with those chassis and weapons.

Does that make sense? The argument I've been having with people thus far is two fold -

1. Win/loss (as represented by the Elo equation) is the best and most reliable starting point and basis (but not only) factor for ranking a player for the matchmaker.

2. You can't modify that Elo score by damage/kills/assists or the like as those numbers can be gamed and are not always accurate in reflecting how good you are at helping win a match. You need to use things like what weapon you do best with or chassis or the like (in terms of how often you win relative to how often you carry it in matches).

Isn't using 'what weapon you do best with' just another way of using damage/kills/assists?

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 25 January 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Isn't using 'what weapon you do best with' just another way of using damage/kills/assists?

Nope, because it's looking at what weapon you have equipped when you win matches. So if you win more matches in a Cataphract 3D with 2 PPCs and an AC10 compared to 2xUAC5 and 4xML, you'll have a higher Elo score in that chassis with the PPCs and the AC10.

In fact more to the point, suppose you rock the AC20 like a champ. A new mech comes out, say the King Crab. You get it, load up two AC20s - you'll start out with your base Assault mech Elo but with a higher modifier for having the AC20s on it, because historically you win more matches in a mech with AC20s loaded.

Make sense? The only metric that counts is win/loss, but you can drill down on those wins to see what chassis and what weapons you tend to win with, same with what game modes and maps.

The point being that it doesn't matter how you win. Maybe it's how you use the gear to support your team. Maybe you're a brawling headshot champ, maybe you're the patron saint of legging. Kills, damage, match score... they don't win matches, not on their own. Winning is what wins. How you win varies from player to player, what you use to win, what circumstances help you win, that's specific to each player. Elo can be (and should be) adjusted to reflect that.

[RichAC]

Having an ELO for every single weapon or loadout in the game for each mech for each player is insane. Talk about overcomplicated and impractical. Sounds like sabotage.

If you want another factor that helps win matches to "drill down" on, drill down on who avgs the highest scores since those are the guys that naturally win more, even when trying not to.

Dmg done really affects match score more then any other stat, and I really don't think they are giving it out for participation reasons because of farmers. And I don't think people are inferior because they believe that stat reflects skill more then anything. I already had that debate with roadkill. Match score takes everything into account and values each specific performances on the field pretty well imo. Except that they need to value winning more.

But If you start telling me the same nonsense about how they can then game the system by trying to score less, I'll repost my previous reply you that your still ignoring.

Oh and you forgot capping a base in assault as another way to win a match. What does your loadout have to do with guys that like to cap? Give a higher ELO to guys with cap accelerators who aren't even good at capping? ...lol

The only metric or STAT that matters to you is W/L but most people don't care about that because

1. its a random team game.

2. the game is based on cbills not wins.

Edited by RichAC, 25 January 2014 - 10:57 PM.

[RichAC]

I just a seen a cicada almost single handedly win us the match in conquest. and he didn't get enough points/cbills for it.

NOw that we have skirmish, wins and caps should definitely be adjusted for more of a reward. It gives alot of these guys a reason to play and they are a real team asset.

I know this will be reflected in his w/l stat and ELO, but the guy should get paid for it. Especially if hes not good at fighting and now that he might face tougher competition. Not everyone has good aim and tactics. Up the cap points a little, and up the wins by a hell of alot...There must be a better way to stop people form farming big win bonuses, other then penalizing everyone else.

Its just one example of why wins don't matter in this game, and why most people farm dmg and get mad sometims if you win a match. They don't actually try to win. Mischief might as well consider them gaming the system.

Edited by RichAC, 25 January 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 25 January 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

No reason to go past this first quote. tldr.

Awesome, shaming through dismissive attitude. You're too far above me now to even respond to my actual arguments?

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You don't respect MWO like you would an athletic sport. This is whats telling. This is all I need to know about you.

Actually, this is all we need to know about you. Key word in here, athletic! There is nothing in MWO that is athletic! If this tells you anything it should tell you I am intelligent enough to draw the distinction between a sport an a game. Even the category of E-Sports is manufactured because these games are not sports and cannot be classified as such! E-Sports is a way of making these games sound like sports without actually calling them sports because, you know, all those laws about fraud and good faith when trying to monetize such a venture.

If you don't have the vocabulary to draw these distinctions, please use a dictionary so we are all clear on what you are actually talking about. Despite what some people say, what words you use are important and some people will read what you wrote and not what you meant!

Now this doesn't mean that these games don't require skill, they are just not sports! You can disagree with me all you like but until the dictionaries change their definition of what a sport is, how about you rage at them first?

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This is what has always held back pc multiplayer games. and e-sports.

What? now you draw a distinction between the two?

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To me they are not that different. And I treat the game with the same respect I would any sport. It doesn't make a diff to me that it is a video game. Its not any less mature, Its not any less competitive. Its not any less sporting then playing chess or football.

Who said I don't respect sports? Ok, a little sharing time. Ok, a little breath here ...
I ... play ... sports! There! I said it!
I am a physical person. I even owned a Dojo and instructed martial arts for over a decade. What I can't do is just sit and watch sports and Sport Games (those that emulate sports) annoy the {Scrap} out of me! According to you, the mere fact that I dislike Sports Games means to you I am disrespectful and view sports less than "nerd" pursuits.

This is where your arrogance and stereotyping of others trips you up and you land flat on your face because while I am a gamer, I don't conform to your imagined mental construct of who you think I am!

Games such as MWO may be competitive but they are not as mature and you kid yourself if you think they are. It is not Gaming as a genre that needs to be mature but rather the game itself! The game needs to be exciting, it needs to have stable rules that an audience can follow and it needs to be able to be relate-able!

The barriers to games like MWO are not "people like you [me]"! This is simple projection, a lack of understanding of what it takes to create a sport like market and more splitting.

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LoL is the first e-sport on tv, in over 30 years of gaming, not only because strategy games attract more of the brain over brawn types, where aim doesn't matter as much and is less exploitable. (even though closer to athletic sports imo) But because Koreans are more honorable and more respectful to their game. There is a good sense of sportsmanship in that community.

Ok, LoL was the first huh? I'll have to throw out all of my recordings of the TV shows Street Fighter and StarCraft finals ...
You are becoming embarrassing. Even a modicum or research would have shown you how wrong you were!

Additionally, you've never really played a RTS at any real competitive level have you?
Aim doesn't matter? really? Clicking on that one unit at just the right time and sending it to just the right place?
True, shortcuts and groupings exist but there aren't (often aren't) enough of them for all your units and you do need to be able to split groups at just the right time. If you think eye/hand coordination doesn't exist in RTS games, you really don't know what you are talking about.

Finally, the Koreans do have a different culture but it is how the audience relates to the product, not those playing it. Those games that are popular have stable rules that the audience can understand and are made exciting by commentary. The risk is not in getting the people to play it, the risk is in getting the people to watch it.

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To keep it on topic, ranking/rating and matching players based only on wins, when players care just as much about other stats like K/D And dmg done is not going to quell any complaints.

1. its game with random teams

2. its a game based on cbills

and if you read the responses people are putting forward, they are not entirely disagreeing with you!

So, now you have demonstrated Straw-manning, quote mining, shaming language, splitting, vilifying, projection, stereotyping, arrogance and general insults.
Again, would you actually care to discuss something with intellectual honesty and rigor?

Edited by Nightfire, 26 January 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[RichAC]

@Nightfire

You hate sports and are glad sports games haven't been made for pc in recent years, and you don't consider MWO an e-sport.

Thats all I need to hear.

This is a thread about sportsmanship and keeping the game fair and competitive. What are you doing here? You will have nothing to add. Go play a coop RPG.

I was a big street fighter, mortal combat tekken fan. I played in the Arcades and peoples houses in many areas. Those are the only games I ever played when I was younger. I remember getting the 10 hit tekken 2 combos from the magazines.

But I've never seen a video game competition on tv sorry. Maybe there was one, but I never heard of it. The only video game i ever even heard of people making a living off of, was a couple guys like fatal1ty in quake. I remember the original deathrow clan with Thresh. and quake I never even saw on tv.

Heres a good documentary for you "We were playing to get the most Frags"

But thats not the same thing as me seeing an LoL tourney a bunch of times on cable tv when scrolling through the channels by accident, just as I do poker or athletic sports. Thats amazing to me and unprecedented. Its a huge first and very new.

Its basically because most of that community actually respects their game and the developer and community do everything they can to preserve a spirit of honest competition. And thats what attracts people.

In MWO Meaning able to score competitively in a random team game, not just win. Save the ELO based on nothing but wins, for the tournaments.

Give More points for winning so people have an incentive to win a random team game in the first place.

Edited by RichAC, 26 January 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Mystere]

RichAC, on 26 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

You hate sports and are glad sports games haven't been made for pc in recent years, and you don't consider MWO an e-sport.

Truth be told, I too do not consider MWO an e-sport.

We don't have any real competitions. There are no trophies being handed out. There are no cash rewards. There is no governing body taking care of official rules. Hence, it is just a game and not anywhere close to an e-sport.

Only once we start getting the above would I start considering MWO an e-sport.

[RichAC]

Mystere, on 26 January 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Truth be told, I too do not consider MWO an e-sport.

We don't have any real competitions. There are no trophies being handed out. There are no cash rewards. There is no governing body taking care of official rules. Hence, it is just a game and not anywhere close to an e-sport.

Only once we start getting the above would I start considering MWO an e-sport.

Kids who play in the park together are still playing sports. Doesn't meanthey aren't or that its any less competitive.

You are talking about what makes a sport or competition "Professional". Meaning real cash money. But to get to that point, it needs to be treated with the same respect from the beginning.

"Competitive Gaming should be considered a professional sport, and the people that accel in these competitions should be treated with the same respect that other athletes get in other sports" Angel Munoz President of the CPL

Edited by RichAC, 26 January 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Mystere]

RichAC, on 26 January 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Kids who play in the park together are still playing sports. Cash rewards doesn't define that.

You are talking about what makes a sport or competition "Professional". But to get to that point, it needs to be treated with the same respect from the beginning.

It does not have to be "professional". It can just as well be "amateur".

Do you know that the Olympics are not considered "professional" and in fact banned "professional" players up until recently?

[Ghogiel]

when used in context to video games, the term sport doesn't mean the dictionary definition. It's just semantics you are arguing about lol.

[RichAC]

Mystere, on 26 January 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It does not have to be "professional". It can just as well be "amateur".

Do you know that the Olympics are not considered "professional" and in fact banned "professional" players up until recently?

exactly my point. They are still sports. They probably originally wanted to ban them, so countries didn't "pay to win" lol.

Ghogiel, on 26 January 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

when used in context to video games, the term sport doesn't mean the dictionary definition. It's just semantics you are arguing about lol.

Also true.

To be more specific they are e-sports played by cyber athletes.

Edited by RichAC, 26 January 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Abivard]

The thing is, if this isn't a sport, then no one can call them poor sports!

[RichAC]

Abivard, on 26 January 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

The thing is, if this isn't a sport, then no one can call them poor sports!

I'm sorry you feel that way.

MWO still requires hand eye coordination, muscle memory and reflexes.

Edited by RichAC, 26 January 2014 - 06:48 PM.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 26 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

@Nightfire

You hate sports and are glad sports games haven't been made for pc in recent years, and you don't consider MWO an e-sport.

Thats all I need to hear.

No, rather that is what you wanted to hear

• I don't hate sports
  
• I do hate Sports Games and I am glad they aren't on the PC though to be fair, it doesn't pahes me that much.
  
• I don't consider MWO an E-Sport! As has been pointed out to you before:
  
  • There are no long standing, consistent rules that an audience can understand
    
  • There is no way to easily spectate and provide cometary
    
  • Finally of the big point, and I wish I had brought this up, there is no governing body to arbitrate!

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This is a thread about sportsmanship and keeping the game fair and competitive. What are you doing here? You will have nothing to add. Go play a coop RPG.

I have nothing to add regarding sportsmanship because I despise playing Sports Games and don't consider MWO an E-Sport? Sportsmanship is a form of conduct, a sport is a very different thing indeed!
So you are here insulting my personal conduct and dismissing my arguments rather than addressing them? Additionally you attempt to pigeon hole me as a class (Nerd / Geek class) unentitled to an opinion based on membership to that class.

You sir are the antithesis of a sportsman and sportsman like conduct! I point to the last line of my post that details the underhanded and unsportsmanlike like behavior that you have demonstrated in this thread alone and to me alone!

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I was a big street fighter, mortal combat tekken fan. I played in the Arcades and peoples houses in many areas. Those are the only games I ever played when I was younger. I remember getting the 10 hit tekken 2 combos from the magazines.

And I have every game issued in all 3 of those franchises. And?

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But I've never seen a video game competition on tv sorry. Maybe there was one, but I never heard of it. The only video game i ever even heard of people making a living off of, was a couple guys like fatal1ty in quake. I remember the original deathrow clan with Thresh. and quake I never even saw on tv.

Perhaps this says more about you than it does about Professional Gaming (and yes, this is what I call it). I've seen it a lot in Asian countries and yes it is a culture thing but not in the way you think it is.

I don't really need a primer in Professional Gaming and I'll tell why a bit further down.

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But thats not the same thing as me seeing an LoL tourney a bunch of times on cable tv when scrolling through the channels by accident, just as I do poker or athletic sports. Thats amazing to me and unprecedented. Its a huge first and very new.

Anecdotal evidence of the culture you're living in changing.

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Its basically because most of that community actually respects their game and the developer and community do everything they can to preserve a spirit of honest competition. And thats what attracts people.

What attracts people is not the respect of the game or the developer, what attracts people is a spectacle. It's entertainment! Make it Exciting! Make it Accessible! Make it Understandable! That is what attracts people! The human mind is far more base than you seem to think.

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In MWO Meaning able to score competitively in a random team game, not just win. Save the ELO based on nothing but wins, for the tournaments.

Give More points for winning so people have an incentive to win a random team game in the first place.

What you want is credit for you as an individual performing as well as the win.
If you were reading half of what is in this thread, you find most of the people you are raging against actually agree with that position!

RichAC, on 26 January 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Kids who play in the park together are still playing sports. Doesn't meanthey aren't or that its any less competitive.

No one has ever said Professional Gaming was not competitive! You seem to be latching on to Competitive == Sport and it doesn't!

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You are talking about what makes a sport or competition "Professional". Meaning real cash money. But to get to that point, it needs to be treated with the same respect from the beginning.

No, not in the way you are describing and this is something I know, not something I am just ranting about! Again, this is expanded at the end. Furthermore, the high profile entertainers in our society (Actors, Athletes, etc) are in my opinion far overvalued and overpaid in comparison to those who should have value (Doctors, Researchers, etc) and make a real difference to our society! Our society would rather kill itself with entertainment than live.

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"Competitive Gaming should be considered a professional sport, and the people that accel in these competitions should be treated with the same respect that other athletes get in other sports" Angel Munoz President of the CPL

So you are going to quote a man who's job it is to sell a marketable idea of entertainment as proof of your position!?

(I apologise but this is the limit of what the PGI Forum can handle with regard to quote tags. All quotes from this point on are indicated as per the next line.)

'Ghogiel' "when used in context to video games, the term sport doesn't mean the dictionary definition. It's just semantics you are arguing about lol."

Actually in the context of this type of discussion, the semantics you are dismissing are incredibly important. Words have specific meanings and without tone and inflection, words are easily misinterpreted unless you use the right word to convey the right idea! Using words in vague contexts is where poor thoughts and ideas evade critical analysis.

'RichAC' "Also true. To be more specific they are e-sports played by cyber athletes."

So now you want to draw a distinction!? Is it that earlier you couldn't or wouldn't?

'Abivard' "The thing is, if this isn't a sport, then no one can call them poor sports!"

Sportsmanship is a code of conduct, it may have originated in sports but it didn't remain there. Anyone acting poorly in terms to the societal expected norms in a competitive endeavor could be said to have poor sportsmanship! This is a definition! The fact that it originally derived from Sports and is used in competitive environments does not make MWO a sport based on it having some form of competitiveness! All planes fly! Not everything that flies is a plane!

'RichAC' "MWO still requires hand eye coordination, muscle memory and reflexes."

I have never disputed this! I have never said that Competitive Gaming does not require some sort of skill, practice or even strategic thinking! You seem to equate that anyone who says MWO is not a sport disputes this! This is your splitting again. Also known as "Black and White thinking"! That is, if someone doesn't agree with you 100% then they are against you!

Then again, you could just be one fantastic troll!

Now, for the challenge that explains a few of my earlier points. How do I know the things I claim to know?
I used to run LANs, professionally. I started out as WANS LAN which turned into EGN LAN. As with most LANs, we ran tournaments. This one started around Natural Selection where we ran everything up to the semi finals online. the semi-Finals and Finals were run at the LAN, for prizes first and cash prizes later. As we went on, we did the same with Counter-Strike. People came to these events to compete for real, cold, cash!



Above: Me on the right handing the cash prize to the Clan Leader of the winning CS Clan @ EGN LAN 3.4

I (and a few other people, I didn't do it alone) did this! I have made an effort to get Professional Gaming a step closer to reality and since then, people have taken the torch from me and moved on. I have some idea what I'm talking about because I did it! What have you actually done that isn't words on the Internet? Time to put up!

So, now you have demonstrated Straw-manning, quote mining, shaming language, splitting, vilifying, projection, stereotyping, arrogance, false accusations and general insults.
Again, would you actually care to discuss something with intellectual honesty and rigor?

Edited by Nightfire, 27 January 2014 - 12:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

RichAC, on 26 January 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

"Competitive Gaming should be considered a professional sport, and the people that accel in these competitions should be treated with the same respect that other athletes get in other sports" Angel Munoz President of the CPL

LOL. OMFG LOL. ROTFLMAO.
Sorry man, This was the funniest {Scrap} I have read in a while! Although I do not hold Athletes in anything near modest regards, Video gaming as an accomplishment is even less impressive. The only thing that we have in common with Athletes is We PLAY A GAME.

I respect my fellow Lawmen and all Servicemen and Servicewomen well above someone who shoots baskets for a living.

Seriously Comparing video gaming to sports is as offensive as comparing Athletes to Soldiers!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[RichAC]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

LOL. OMFG LOL. ROTFLMAO.
Sorry man, This was the funniest {Scrap} I have read in a while! Although I do not hold Athletes in anything near modest regards, Video gaming as an accomplishment is even less impressive. The only thing that we have in common with Athletes is We PLAY A GAME.

I respect my fellow Lawmen and all Servicemen and Servicewomen well above someone who shoots baskets for a living.

Seriously Comparing video gaming to sports is as offensive as comparing Athletes to Soldiers!

Your offensive to this game, sorry you didn't get the RPG you wanted.

But the only reason this game is going to fail, is not because of anyhting PGI has done, its just the blatent disprect and resentment from the community. Sort of like how hackers and nerds resent society.

Not treating this game with the same respect as a professional sport, ends up selfishly ruining the game for others. Its sad most of you don't realize this, but it is not surprising at all. "its just a game" is what people like you would say. As if that is an excuse for anything less then honorable.

These pro gamers, the few that actually make a living out of it, are just as extraordinary as a professional athlete. Its just something you don't understand. You would probably play with one of these guys and think they were cheating. Its sometimes impossible to believe how good they are without watching them on camera or knowing they are being monitored at a LAN event on a provided pc. They are the type of guys that are better then the most blatent aim bot, because they are able to adapt their strategies and beat bots. Thats the main thing that seperates them from us. Not so much their inhuman aim, but their ability to adapt to another player and expose his weaknesses. They truly are on another level, and just like pro athletes are probably less then 1% of the population.

I compare it to shooting guns, but why would you bring soldiers into this conversation?

I really hope that people who have no sense of sportsmanship or any sports sense at all, are not influencing the development of this multiplayer.







@Nightfire, Wow, I didn't read all of that, but you keep admitting you hate sports games on the pc and don't consider MWO a sport. This is all I need to know about you.

You ran a counterstrike tournament? Well if you watch that frag documentary, you will realize people like you are the scum of the industry, no offense, and the reason the e-sport industry is going nowhere. Thats the main reason that documentary came out. I bet you didn't respect counterstrike either and were only in it to try and make money. Which is the core problem I keep expressing.

Maybe i'm wrong, did you even play it? What makes it so much better then MWO then, if not the community? I think the game could use some minor improvements, but I think the core game is amazing. To stay on topic the matchmaker is what attracts me to this game over others. The biggest problem I have is the community.

A community that does not respect its own core game, will never be satisfied and the game will never be popular no matter what a developer does. Most people will not want to be associated with it and it will be unpopular simply for that reason alone.

For people to say video gamers should not be as respected as pro athletes shows they have little respect for any video game... Which means they should not be involved in a video games direction or even working in the industry.

Edited by RichAC, 27 January 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 27 January 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

@Nightfire, Wow, I didn't read all of that, but you keep admitting you hate sports games on the pc and don't consider MWO a sport. This is all I need to know about you.

You didn't read all of it but you claim to know my position?
I hate Sports Games (Video Games that emulate sports) and this is a point that invalidates any point I have? I take it you love all games then? Every! single! genre! Though I do note you have stopped saying I hate sports, at least that's progress.

I don't consider MWO a sport. No, I don't. There is no physical exertion involved at all, thus not a sport. Professional/Competitive Gaming, sure. A sport, no. Not even the CPL considers what they do sports, though they may draw parallels between them, and even you can't keep your terminology straight.

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You ran a counterstrike tournament? Well if you watch that frag documentary, you will realize people like you are the scum of the industry, no offense, and the reason the e-sport industry is going nowhere. Thats the main reason that documentary came out. I bet you didn't respect counterstrike either and were only in it to try and make money. Which is the core problem I keep expressing.

Oh god, how deep you keep digging the hole you are in!

• We were in negotiation with the CPL for endorsement and to hold local qualifiers before we had to close up. (That happened because I progressed my career and could no longer afford the time). So, are the CPL scum of the industry also? Or are you assuming things about me that you would like to be true?
  
• You talk about respect and I'm not sure you actually know what it is. I actually played CS and competed when I could.
  
• The event was run under a registered non-profit organisation. No one was paid and the event charged to cover costs and that's all. I guess your attempt to portray me as a money grubbing exploiter has backfired a little.

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Maybe i'm wrong, did you even play it?

Yes you are wrong, so very very wrong. Also, about a great many things.
Yes I did play CS, from the time you had to walk up to the shop to buy equipment.

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What makes it so much better then MWO then, if not the community? I think the game could use some minor improvements, but I think the core game is amazing.

Seriously? What makes it better!?

• Simplicity, Stability and Consistency of rules. (Audiences have to be able to know what is going on)
  
• The ability to actually run effective tournaments. (This is a no brainier)
  
• The ability to spectate (and thus broadcast and have commentary) without participating. (again, the pesky audience)

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To stay on topic the matchmaker is what attracts me to this game over others. The biggest problem I have is the community.

The matchmaker in MWO is abominable. You think this community is bad? CS, the most popular FPS in the world has the, hands down, bar none, worst and most toxic community I have ever seen! If you think this community is bad I wonder if you have ever seen another? (Rhetorical, don't bother answering it) What I think you really have a problem with is people having an opinion different to your own. That is what burns you up and keeps you coming back.

The infidels must be converted to believers or destroyed!

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A community that does not respect its own core game, will never be satisfied and the game will never be popular no matter what a developer does. Most people will not want to be associated with it and it will be unpopular simply for that reason alone.

Counter Strike, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, Command and Conquer would all like to disagree with you here. The communities of these franchises do, and do so often, disagree with balance choices the developer makes. Sometimes the developers hedge this off by getting the high tier players to test balance changes and solicit feedback (and make changes!) before going live with these changes. What you think should be true, really isn't.

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For people to say video gamers should not be as respected as pro athletes shows they have little respect for any video game... Which means they should not be involved in a video games direction or even working in the industry.

Oh hell no! Pro-Athletes shouldn't be respected like pro-athletes! The pedestal they are on is WAY too high! They are paid far too much and paid far too much attention for what amounts to a little entertainment. These are not the important things in life.
While I like video games, enjoy them immensely, I will never respect them because they are a thing! A virtual one at that! If you truly respect a game, then you have some real problems with humanity.
As for the direction of games or the gaming industry, people like yourself should be kept as far away from it as possible! Fortunately for me, you have no power to remove me from an industry I thoroughly enjoy! I've helped to try and foster an environment where people can make a living playing video games and to a small extent I succeeded! They don't make much but for those that do in my corner of western culture, it at least makes them enough to be a second job. To create an environment where people can make a living off of a game is less about creating a community and more about creating a market. I honestly don't think you know much about either, I have done both.

Again, what have you done apart from complain on an Internet forum? What qualifies you to talk about these things other than having a strong opinion?

So, now you have demonstrated Straw-manning, quote mining, shaming language, splitting, vilifying, projection, stereotyping, arrogance, false accusations, libel and general and specific insults.
At this point I believe you are incapable of discussing anything with intellectual honesty and rigor.

[Nightfire]

RichAC, on 27 January 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

You ran a counterstrike tournament? Well if you watch that frag documentary, you will realize people like you are the scum of the industry, no offense, and the reason the e-sport industry is going nowhere. Thats the main reason that documentary came out. I bet you didn't respect counterstrike either and were only in it to try and make money. Which is the core problem I keep expressing.

You know, in a vain hope that you might actually have some point, I watched the documentary you provided. You know, the one that at no point comes close to saying anything I stated I did was anything remotely bad for the professional gaming industry and supported many of the arguments I've made about needing an audience and creating a market (Take particular note of what Gene Simmons says!).

I ask you now, politely, to retract this libelous statement.

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For people to say video gamers should not be as respected as pro athletes shows they have little respect for any video game... Which means they should not be involved in a video games direction or even working in the industry.

After watching the video that you have offered up as supporting evidence, I would be seriously worried about the people who you quote to support your argument. Their moral credibility seems to be sorely lacking.