33 replies to this topic

[Porkins6]

First of all I hope this is in the correct thread for this type of feedback. Secondly I am sure you will look at my profile and see that I usually don't post to MWO forums for a variety of reasons but most my reasons will make themselves clear in some of the replies this get. However, I have been playing this game for over a year now and enjoy the play very much so keep up the good work guys. Super excited about CW coming up. I have vetted some of these ideas through my clan of 100 plus active members and there is a clear consensus that as of right now something needs to be done about jump sniping (poptarts) and I think it should be done through the Jump Jets.

Suggestions:

Increase tonnage on JJ's to scale more appropriately to weight of mech.

Increase recharge time on JJ's so they would be used more for tactical maneuvering versus continuous use.

Implement a more aggressive fall damage model.

Possibly use number of JJ's to increase recharge time instead of Jump distance or on the flip side more JJ's means longer jump distance and longer recharge.

Make JJ's easier to crit and/or explode like the guass. Maybe they sit outside the armor of the mech?

Extend recticle shake or targeting variance(whatever its called) to when a mech is falling as well as lifting.

I honestly think that AC's and PPC are in a fairly good spot so I don't have much of a problem them in of themselves. Mainly just the fact a mech can be moving 60 plus kph and can jump unload an alpha and disappear before they can be targeted in return. No targeting penalty and no damage penalty.

I hope everything makes sense but feel free to touch base with me if you want me to explain something in more detail.

[sneeking]

I don't agree with reticle shake if the engines are cut, reticle stabilizes during free fall as it should and would.

I do agree that jets should scale for the weight class, two jets capable of lifting a spider could never be the same two jets capable of lifting a fully laden catapult missile boat ( that makes sense )

and fall damage does seem mild ( I have no fear of dropping from top floor of hpg manifold down to basement level in a centurion to engage an enemy ( unless of cause my leg is already critical )

perhaps upping the critical roll on jets would be unnecessary if weight scale and relative impact for size and weight were trialed first.

[Watchit]

I would agree to seeing all or some of these changes, especially the increased recharge rate for JJs.

[sneeking]

increased weight to scale alone would see them forced to think carefully about the number of large weapons they could afford to combine in an alpha build, and also how much ammo would fit with that.

limiting either the number and size of guns vs the number of rounds vs mobility ( a perfect triangular tradeoff ) pick any two but you can't have three.

[Sh4nk0h0l1c]

I like the idea of a higher falling damage depending on mass and the falling distance... *thumbs up*

...would give you something to think about if betty yells at you: "Fuel at 25%"

[Durant Carlyle]

Increasing the tonnage is not a valid option. The rest of them are valid though. I don't agree with them, but they are valid ideas.

Targeting an enemy 'Mech takes no time. If you're talking about missile locks ... sorry, there is no insta-lock option and there never should be. Their ability to jump up, fire, and disappear doesn't affect direct-fire weapons -- lead your target as normal, fire, and score hits even as they're rising and falling.

Do I like jump sniping? No, because I can't do it.
Do I think it's an unfair tactic because I can't do it? No.
Do I like being cored from halfway across the map by a jump sniper? No.
Do I think it should be curtailed? No.

[sneeking]

increasing the weight and size would be realistic in terms of physical engin attributes and their output.

in reality a pair of jets that lift a 30t mech would be smaller and lighter than a pair of jets to lift a 60t mech ( size and weight shouldn't double because output to size and weight isnt linear scale )

[Sh4nk0h0l1c]

@ sneeking:

you know, thats why we got the different jumpjet classes like I, II, III, IV,...

No weght-tweaking needed there...

But the thrust you gt from these JJ should ( and i think it already does) depend on the mass of your mech...

[sneeking]

yea but why does a jj for a spider weigh and occupy the same weight and space as that for a catapult ?

a leer jet turbine wouldn't push a 747 look at the difference in the size n weight of the engines required.

edit, my mistake there is a difference already in that respect ( I just started mwo n had a look )

class v spider .5t
class lll catapult 1t

how about having to actualy equip fuel like ammo ? ie. more jets less fuel = fewer big jumps and less jets more fuel = many smaller jumps.

would that stop the poptarts from playing one style for the whole match ?

Edited by sneeking, 29 January 2014 - 02:10 AM.

[RadioKies]

Yeah uhm... how about we don't nerf the jumpjets and do something that actually does something to stop poptarting while keeping jumpjets viable for people who don't use jumpjets for poptarting.

Because most posts in this topic talk about increasing weight with diffirent types of mechs I'm going to assume you guys don't know anything about jumpjets and just hate poptarts. Please look into a mechanic before you're going to get involved into a discussion about it.

This is the same kind of topic we used to have about LRM&SRM... where people didn't use LRM's and hated them, so they started to shout all kind of nerf things that would make single items useless. Look at the SRM2. Thanks for making the SRM2 the most useless weapon of all. Also, don't get me started on the useless Gauss nerf charging mechanic.

Edited by RadioKies, 29 January 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[MountainCopper]

Durant Carlyle, on 28 January 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Their ability to jump up, fire, and disappear doesn't affect direct-fire weapons -- lead your target as normal, fire, and score hits even as they're rising and falling.

In close combat, hit detection will cause most of your hits to damage the legs instead. And I'm tired of Mechs using their JJs in close combat as an unfair advantage... really tired.
That is really my main complaint with them while fighting up close. Never counts as a hit there I hit.

Durant Carlyle, on 28 January 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Do I think it's an unfair tactic because I can't do it? No.

I do believe it is unfair. In close combat as just mentioned, and at medium range is it a major tactical advantage.

It gives heavy and therefore mostly slow Mechs and major speed boost vertically while falling back down. So you can shoot and be back in cover much quicker than a Mech with the same weight but no JJs ever could.

This comes together with the ability to shoot from a higher elevation AND the ability to shoot above enemy cover...
It is unbalanced, and the fact that even Assaults only need 1 JJ for all this is just...

Edited by GoldenFleece, 29 January 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Increase tonnage on JJ's to scale more appropriately to weight of mech.

No.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Increase recharge time on JJ's so they would be used more for tactical maneuvering versus continuous use.

No.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Implement a more aggressive fall damage model.

Yes.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Possibly use number of JJ's to increase recharge time instead of Jump distance or on the flip side more JJ's means longer jump distance and longer recharge.

Yes and no. Just make it impossible to turn in the air unless you have 4-5 JJs in different parts of your mech. Longer distance - yes. Recharge - no.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Make JJ's easier to crit and/or explode like the guass. Maybe they sit outside the armor of the mech?

Yes, but they are at the rear. Gotta shoot em pop-tarts in da rear then.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Extend recticle shake or targeting variance(whatever its called) to when a mech is falling as well as lifting.

No. Otherwise any movement is same shake. Walking is falling. You walk you shake.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

I honestly think that AC's and PPC are in a fairly good spot so I don't have much of a problem them in of themselves. Mainly just the fact a mech can be moving 60 plus kph and can jump unload an alpha and disappear before they can be targeted in return. No targeting penalty and no damage penalty.

You know whats funny? He has same amount of time to target you as you him.

Porkins6, on 28 January 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

I hope everything makes sense but feel free to touch base with me if you want me to explain something in more detail.

Lots of people propose added shake on descent but I am yet to hear any reasonable justification of this. Note that as I said it has to be airborne specific. If you can do it that'll be really interesting.

[PhoenixFire55]

sneeking, on 28 January 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

I do agree that jets should scale for the weight class, two jets capable of lifting a spider could never be the same two jets capable of lifting a fully laden catapult missile boat ( that makes sense )

Take a note that a Class I jumpjets Highlanders use are 2 tons each. Same time Class V jumpjets Spiders use are 0.5 tons each. Just as a Highlander is roughly 4 times heavier than the Spider so are its jumpjets.

[Ximius]

Just want to add +1 for both
1. Increase recharge rate of JJ to make it more tactical
2. Use more aggressive fall damage - much less pop tarting if your legs are gonna fall off!

I literally just came from a match that had no less than 8 of the other team poptarting behind rocks/buildings/whatever. Between this and the constant use of running in circles, matches feel like counterstrike against a bunch of 7 year olds much more than anything MW related.

Even if the suggestions taken above are not done, something does need to be done about it. I say this not because I cant buy a SHD and start doing it, but if the game is going to be left to that kind of play being most effective, its little more than counterstike with robot avatars rather than MWO.

[Durant Carlyle]

Also note that jump jets aren't actually engines like airplane engines. They are simply vents for superheated air (which is heated by the fusion reactor and then routed to the jump jet outlet).

Should a larger vent weigh more? Yes, but not linearly. That's why jump jets are weird in their weight ranges.

Jump jets being simple vents also explains why they don't explode -- they cease to vent correctly when hit and the control computer shuts them down.

GoldenFleece, on 29 January 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

In close combat, hit detection will cause most of your hits to damage the legs instead. And I'm tired of JJs Mechs using their JJs in close combat as an unfair advantage... really tired.
That is really my main complaint with them while fighting up close. Never counts as a hit there I hit.

I do believe it is unfair. In close combat as just mentioned, and at medium range is it a major tactical advantage.

It gives heavy and therefore mostly slow Mechs and major speed boost vertically while falling back down. So you can shoot and be back in cover much quicker than a Mech with the same weight but no JJs ever could.

They sacrificed tonnage that could go to extra weapons and armor and equipment to get those jets. Plus, jumping isn't fast at all -- the more they use the jets the slower they go (except for the way down, of course). And you KNOW which 'Mechs have jets don't you? So expect that they will jump and aim accordingly. It's really not that hard.

GoldenFleece, on 29 January 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

This comes together with the ability to shoot from a higher elevation AND the ability to shoot above enemy cover...
It is unbalanced, and the fact that even Assaults only need 1 JJ for all this is just...

A single jump jet in tabletop gets you 30 meters of hopping power. That's more than twice the height of most 'Mechs. What we have with a single jump jet in MW:O is about right.

Ximius, on 29 January 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

Even if the suggestions taken above are not done, something does need to be done about it. I say this not because I cant buy a SHD and start doing it, but if the game is going to be left to that kind of play being most effective, its little more than counterstike with robot avatars rather than MWO.

You mean like it's been in all MechWarrior games?

There is no way to keep jump jets effective yet stop jump sniping, without removing the ability to fire while jumping. Even with reticle shake, shots are accurate enough that it's still worth firing. I fire while jump jetting in my Jenners all the time and I still usually hit with all weapons, despite the fact that it converges the weapons on two separate points. I usually end up hitting the target's leg with my left arm lasers and the target's torso with my right arm lasers (IIRC, for me, the left arm always points slightly lower than the main reticle when firing during jetting).

[MountainCopper]

Durant Carlyle, on 29 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

They sacrificed tonnage that could go to extra weapons and armor and equipment to get those jets. Plus, jumping isn't fast at all -- the more they use the jets the slower they go (except for the way down, of course). And you KNOW which 'Mechs have jets don't you? So expect that they will jump and aim accordingly. It's really not that hard.

You mean tonnage which would be equivalent to 1 JJ? 2 at max. That investment is nothing compared to the benefits you get.
I am firing at the Mechs rising up. But as I said, up close it's just being used to make aiming nearly impossible unless you want to hit the legs.

Durant Carlyle, on 29 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

A single jump jet in tabletop gets you 30 meters of hopping power. That's more than twice the height of most 'Mechs. What we have with a single jump jet in MW:O is about right.

Horizontal distance or vertical height?

[Durant Carlyle]

GoldenFleece, on 29 January 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Horizontal distance or vertical height?

There are no rules for jumping straight up with jump jets. However, in the act of jumping one hex away (30m), you can also jump up one terrain level. If you have six jump jets, you can clear a level six terrain hex in the middle of your six hex jump movement. So basically, both.

[Monky]

Tonnage/crit changes and exploding jumpjets won't happen. They are sticking close to the build rules from battletech/mechwarrior, which is a good thing. Shake on the way down is the way to go.

[Grendel408]

sneeking, on 29 January 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

how about having to actualy equip fuel like ammo ? ie. more jets less fuel = fewer big jumps and less jets more fuel = many smaller jumps.

No... equipping fuel for JumpJets is a ludicrous idea... from the Btech mechanics of the game, this does not vibe well at all. See Sarna.net for details on JJs... I would be more inclined to allow JJs to produce more waste heat than any other ideas thus far. We've been through the JJ shake effect, depending on the tonnage of a Mech JJs weigh more (obviously)... This is not going to deter someone from Jump Sniping regardless of any nerf put into place because someone will adjust to it and adapt as they have done in the past. Will this effect me running amok in my Light or Medium Mechs? Yes... do I care if they add more heat for balance on this to incorporate more of a BTech lore mechanic, nope.

[Corvus Antaka]

jumpjets recharge far too quickly, give not nearly enough vertical hieght (try jumping onto platform crimson straight from water in a 12 jj spider it's not doable) the turning / agility bonuses they give big mechs is also problematic.

and they have no heat.

if we had btech:3025 style jumpjets instead the entire "jumpsnipe" meta wouldnt exist.

and, we could actually DFA and "jump" onto things, instead of grinding our mechs up along terrain and buildings.

plus, think of the tactical uses if you could jump from ground floor to top of crimson straight platform.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 31 January 2014 - 12:56 AM.