64 replies to this topic

[NextGame]

Cole Williams, on 24 January 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

This is not an MMO, this is a game you can jump on for 15-30 minutes between other things (work, laundry, etc) and frankly it isn't fun to get repeatedly rolled in random games. I don't mind losing if there is a chance to win. But getting loaded up against an originized group and losing 2 to 10 6-8 times in one days is not fun.

Oddly I play games to relax and have fun, the above mentioned rolling does not make this game fun. Should PGI not find a way to properly balance the game (because the current system is a failure) then I guess I personally can stop wasting time and money here.

Some people win the majority of their games, and some people lose the majority of their games. What does that tell you?

1) If you are getting stomped every. single. time. then I promise you it is not the premades who are to blame.

2) Play to win, or expect to lose. If you think being in a group is that powerful, be in one. Beyond the chassis unlocks, the playing field is a level one. I play solo as often as not and to be honest, there really isnt any difference in the W/L ratio that I can tell.

3) If the other team has a premade, the chances are that your team also has one. Guess you had better tell your premade to carry you harder as you arent willing to play better.

Edited by NextGame, 24 January 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Ryoken]

Cole Williams, on 24 January 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

... I don't mind losing if there is a chance to win...

And there I stopped crediting your post plausibility...
Please do flip some coins to relax and have fun. And do read a book about stochastics.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I am starting to think anything done to reduce the premades who wish to steamroll will be countered somehow. Like synch drops were a no no but now Its advertised on clan pages those seeking easy kills and grind will find a way to do so. Its human weakness at its best and many will come out to defend it.

I am somewhat against splitting it up for that reason alone. After seeing the game and the forums over a year now I don't think there is a way to stop it but only reduce it. PGI would have to be very aggressive in going after those seeking to exploit and their track record is poor in that regard.

It's not about winning or losing but instead quality of play. There is none in a 12/2- 12/0 stomp. Both sides lose but greed wins instead. If you split the ques then greed will find a way to take advantage. The lack of players in 12v12 shows that most stomper teams are not after a challenge.

I think we should wait and see how in game voip will affect gameplay after it comes on line before we move in any other direction. It will cure part of the biggest imbalance in the game. It may discourage some of the most notorious stompers out there when they see pugs can counter them.

[Denolven]

Ryoken, on 24 January 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

And there I stopped crediting your post plausibility...
Please do flip some coins to relax and have fun. And do read a book about stochastics.

Dude if you keep talking like that, don't be surprised about how badly people react to math nerds
If you have nothing constructive to say, keep it to yourself. Helps looking less like a {Dezgra}, you know

The part you quoted is perfectly fine from a mathematical (or logical, to be more specific) point of view. Maybe it's you who interpreted a bit too much into the words.
If - for whatever reason - you want to nerd-battle it out, please keep the thread clean and send me a PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

lsp, on 24 January 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

Yeha agree, I've been in 12-1 stomps where there's not a single premade on my team. You guys are complainging now aboutt he premade stomps, you should have played back in closed beta. It was terrible back then, lol.

I had a blast back in closed Beta. Even before I joined the Law. I didn't join them till I had a .500+ W/L and a 1.0 K/D first. I refused to join a group till I reached what I thought was an acceptable level of competence. Took me a month to six weeks! Now the 1st 2 weeks were frustrating cause Getting everything to work as advertised was... exciting!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 January 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[UnHolyLegion]

Cole Williams, on 24 January 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

This is not an MMO, this is a game you can jump on for 15-30 minutes between other things (work, laundry, etc) and frankly it isn't fun to get repeatedly rolled in random games. I don't mind losing if there is a chance to win. But getting loaded up against an originized group and losing 2 to 10 6-8 times in one days is not fun.

Oddly I play games to relax and have fun, the above mentioned rolling does not make this game fun. Should PGI not find a way to properly balance the game (because the current system is a failure) then I guess I personally can stop wasting time and money here.

Why not stick to playing games on your phone then?? Candy crush is pretty popular

Ive had stretches of playing MWO where i have been on teams that get rofl-stomped all day. I have also had a good day where it was usually (not always) my team that was doing the rofl-stomping. And yes i will admit that having a group of 4 people on TS does offer an advantage. Don't like it?? Join a group and stop complaining and play with a premade group and realize that a group of 4 people does not gaurentee a win. I have been with a premade group and we get stomped. Im not the best player around but jeez... you wont win all the time and yes you will have losing streaks.

moral of the story?? stop complaining and join a MWO group, dont make PGI ruin a game with an obsurd queing system, MM is fine as is...dont like the tonnage limits?? get a bigger mech. *gibs head smack*

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 24 January 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

I am starting to think anything done to reduce the premades who wish to steamroll will be countered somehow. Like synch drops were a no no but now Its advertised on clan pages those seeking easy kills and grind will find a way to do so. Its human weakness at its best and many will come out to defend it.

I am somewhat against splitting it up for that reason alone. After seeing the game and the forums over a year now I don't think there is a way to stop it but only reduce it. PGI would have to be very aggressive in going after those seeking to exploit and their track record is poor in that regard.

It's not about winning or losing but instead quality of play. There is none in a 12/2- 12/0 stomp. Both sides lose but greed wins instead. If you split the ques then greed will find a way to take advantage. The lack of players in 12v12 shows that most stomper teams are not after a challenge.

I think we should wait and see how in game voip will affect gameplay after it comes on line before we move in any other direction. It will cure part of the biggest imbalance in the game. It may discourage some of the most notorious stompers out there when they see pugs can counter them.

The quality of play is a personal experience. I played 3 matches PUG and 4 matches with the Law Tuesday... I have about a .500 with around the same W/L PUG as I do Grouped. If you are not playing in a group Mud you cannot say if it is Groups ruining your game or not. My experience is about even for who stomps who PUG/Group.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Ryoken, on 24 January 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

First of - Battletech or Mechwarrior does not have tiers. We have Battlevalue or Tonnage!
Second - Please elaborate why premades do ruin the joy of this game? It is quite the opposite and playing in a premade is great fun!
Third - If you do not want to play a team game, why the heck do you play an MMO?

First off (please note it has two f's) - Mechwarrior and Battletech has 4 "tiers" of pilots - green to Elite.
Second - only from the point of view of the premade.
Third - It is only possible to play this game as part of a team. Team does not mean a small subset of the actuall "team" as far as the game is concerned. The correct term should be "group".

[Mudhutwarrior]

UnHolyLegion, on 24 January 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Why not stick to playing games on your phone then?? Candy crush is pretty popular

Ive had stretches of playing MWO where i have been on teams that get rofl-stomped all day. I have also had a good day where it was usually (not always) my team that was doing the rofl-stomping. And yes i will admit that having a group of 4 people on TS does offer an advantage. Don't like it?? Join a group and stop complaining and play with a premade group and realize that a group of 4 people does not gaurentee a win. I have been with a premade group and we get stomped. Im not the best player around but jeez... you wont win all the time and yes you will have losing streaks.

moral of the story?? stop complaining and join a MWO group, dont make PGI ruin a game with an obsurd queing system, MM is fine as is...dont like the tonnage limits?? get a bigger mech. *gibs head smack*

fo·rum
ˈfôrəm/
noun
noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora
1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.


Not a place where people are to stop complaining.

*gibs head smack*

[Mudhutwarrior]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 24 January 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

First off (please note it has two f's) - Mechwarrior and Battletech has 4 "tiers" of pilots - green to Elite.
Second - only from the point of view of the premade.
Third - It is only possible to play this game as part of a team. Team does not mean a small subset of the actuall "team" as far as the game is concerned. The correct term should be "group".

Exactly right. It is false to call our preamde system a team game. You drop with 12 and that's a team but what we have is 4 or 8 who most of the time do their thing and ignore the rest. What we have now is far from a team game. Maybe lobbies and Voip ingame will change that. Hoping it will.
Those fighting to keep this system as it stands are not team players. They are gangs in every sense of the definition.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 24 January 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

First off (please note it has two f's) - Mechwarrior and Battletech has 4 "tiers" of pilots - green to Elite.
Second - only from the point of view of the premade.
Third - It is only possible to play this game as part of a team. Team does not mean a small subset of the actuall "team" as far as the game is concerned. The correct term should be "group".

For your third point My Team is part of the larger group. See my 4 man team is part of a 12 man group. A team communicates and works together, I do not see that happening much in PUG groups.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 January 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

or your third point My Team is part of the larger group. See my 4 man team is part of a 12 man group. A team communicates and works together, I do not see that happening much in PUG groups.

Why is that Joe? Enlighten us.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 24 January 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Why is that Joe? Enlighten us.

Cause after watching PUGs ignore even the simplest suggestions (by folks who type much faster than me), I came to the conclusion that most PUGs don't want to be a team. And yes I have 8+ months of PUG play Mud, I have plenty of experience as a PUG.

[NextGame]

Random thought pertaining to ELO/Matchmaking: it would be quite entertaining if the game auto-assigned team leadership to the highest ELO player on each team, with an optional opt-out in settings.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Cause after watching PUGs ignore even the simplest suggestions (by folks who type much faster than me), I came to the conclusion that most PUGs don't want to be a team. And yes I have 8+ months of PUG play Mud, I have plenty of experience as a PUG.

Two sides to that coin Joe. It is rare but Pugs can be effective as a team. I would say the majority of Pugs are Noobs and casuals so that is to be expected. Since when to we structure to the lowest common denominator? Do we attempt to raise up the barbarian hordes? Or instead do we lead and bring structure? Whats be discussed is to have the tools to the latter.
All I get from you is the unwashed masses should remain so and be thought of as cattle for slaughters sake. 12 months of you working to keep this the same as it ever was. I think by now everyone knows with 16k posts what your thoughts are.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 24 January 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[Hexenhammer]

Lykaon, on 23 January 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

We should be looking for ways to reduce the divisions in the queues not adding more.

Absolutely.

As many times as I've suggested this queue and that queue I've always know there is a limited player base for this game and every queue we and the smaller the player pool becomes.

Skirmish mode has had a huge impact on the game. We might not see it but it's there and it's effecting people in other queues.

And it will continue to happen as other game modes are introduced. Attack and defend? 4 queues. Escort? 5 queues, king of the hill/base? 6 queues.

And what will happen to this game when lobbies start up? Sure lobbies are cool and we all want them but how many players will disappear from the pug pool.

Say this game has 10,000 daily players. Add probate lobbies and the rule of 3rds and 3,333 players disappear from the 'game'. They are there and they are playing but ELO/MM doesn't get to draw on them to fill teams up with.

[Ryoken]

Denolven, on 24 January 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

Dude if you keep talking like that, don't be surprised about how badly people react to math nerds
If you have nothing constructive to say, keep it to yourself. Helps looking less like a {Dezgra}, you know

The part you quoted is perfectly fine from a mathematical (or logical, to be more specific) point of view. Maybe it's you who interpreted a bit too much into the words.
If - for whatever reason - you want to nerd-battle it out, please keep the thread clean and send me a PM.

Well a thread as unconstructive and nondescript as this, and me beeing tired of ignorant people blaming the wrong scapegoat resulted in a maybe little harsh sounding answer. Because I am not willing to turn over the floor to them! Also I was constructive before as I posted to discuss equal tonnage or battlevalue distribution between the two teams!

Nik Van Rhijn, on 24 January 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

First off (please note it has two f's) - Mechwarrior and Battletech has 4 "tiers" of pilots - green to Elite.
Second - only from the point of view of the premade.
Third - It is only possible to play this game as part of a team. Team does not mean a small subset of the actuall "team" as far as the game is concerned. The correct term should be "group".

First off : Yeah and soon we also get weapon tiers. So maybe the guys with the lvl 1 medium laser module will get another queue than the guys with the lvl 1 srm 2 module!? So your point beeing??? OP obviously is a pug blaming all his lost battles to the evil premades and wants a solo player queue in a MMO to realize how much he overestimated himself. So I would understand if he would debate about equal distribution of premades between the two teams, or how the matchmaker regards ELO or weight class or specific mech chassis. But he doesn't...

Second - again a lot of pugs suffer distorted perception, I quote myself:

Ryoken, on 18 January 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think a lot of solo pugger rage boils down to this. Hurt vanity and the paranoid assumption that it is always the evil premade out there that made them loose the game.

Till yet I have not seen any valid data that premades are the cause for 12 VS 0-2 defeats! They happened when there where 1-8 premades. they happen now with 1-4 premades. And I bet they will also happen in the solo que if there is going to be one some day. Simply because uncoordinated teams are uncoordinated and it is more likely the solo players will walk into the wrong spot one after one.

And also I think a lot of those antisocial no to teamplay players massively overestimate their impact on the outcome of the battle! This game is not counterstrike where you can headshot 5 other players with one clip if your reflexes are good. Your reaction gets toned down by the mechs moving speed and you have to hit an enemy several times to kill him. Also you do not have respawn, so after your hitpoints are gone you can not restart with fresh ones and keep on your 5 kills per clip killing spree. Your impact is just 1/12th of the team! Even if you are a very good player, and always drop with the best meta fitting heaviest mech (like HGN-733C nowadays) of the moment - you will hardly overcome a winratio of lets say 55 to 60%!

These numbers will not change by the number and size of premades that are randomly distrebuted by random or equaly among the two teams, if you drop solo! So there is no reason why solo playing players should have the right to tell the team oriented population of the server how big their teams should be. It is even absurd to demand prohibition of teamplay in a MMO.

The win loss ratios of team players however will be affected by bigger premade sizes! If you always play together with 7 friends, and you all are very bad players, your winratio will go down below to even 40-30%ish values. Because unlike the solo dropping player who always has a fresh chance of getting a better or worse team than the enemy team, you and your 7 bad playing friends always stick together and always drag down your chance of winning by your own bad play. Same goes the other way around if you form a team with 7 good playing friends who even might compensate your own bad playing.

So to sum it up:
Does premade size matter for winratio of solo dropping players? Answer is NO!
Does premade size matter for winratio of team dropping players? Answer is YES!

Third - I think you are beginning to understand what MMO stands for and why it is played using the internet. If you want to play alone by yourself there is always the game mode called "testing grounds"! You always win and your K/D ratio ist hillarious!

Edited by Ryoken, 24 January 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Actually you are right. There are many PUG players that don't want to be part of a team. And this is PGI's biggest failing.

They could have easily doubled or tripled the player base, increased retention of players, made more money and hired more people to make more progress if they had started out with a Solaris VII, Free-For-All option.

Instead they went with the "We are going to make a Team based game and damn the rest" approach.

I know its hard to understand for many, but there are people with different personalities in the world. They enjoy different things. In every version of this game, until this version, those differing personalities had options. Want to be on a team, go on the servers and play as a team. Want to do it all on your own, stick to the single person mode. IV-Mercs did the best with options wit Solaris VII being in game albeit the AI wasn't great. This game could easily offer that and be the best of all, but instead of grabbing the low hanging fruit, PGI has opted to ignore it and reach for the ones at the very top of the tree using a 6 foot ladder. Still haven't reached it have they.

So until then, some players will leave because the game mode isn't for them, others will get what enjoyment they can out of it by playing as an individual in a team construct, and others will simple join teams.

So until next time Mechwarrior.........

[Joseph Mallan]

Which reinforces why PUGs get rolled in a Team game Mud. If you are playing with a bunch of players for the first time this drop even with Comms you don't know how good that bunch of players will work together.

I cannot agree with the mindset that it is unfair to use comms when playing a team game that supports & endorces the use of third party comms.

You cannot rightly complain about being stomped when any number of players can be on comms. My 4 man can drop with 8 PUGs vs a House Marik force that is group dropping. Its a team game, if the Mariks get lucky an have 6-8 players on the same team and on comms with 4-6 PUGs that is almost how I understand the Invasion scenarios are supposed to happen.As many Lyrans get together to fight the Jade Falcons on Coventry. If 8-9 Lyrans get in the drop and are on comms on the Lyran channels on US/EU/NG:NG servers that will be working as intended. Now cause 2-3 players are not on Comms (Lone Wolves/PUGs)... again working as intended.

[Denolven]

Ryoken, on 24 January 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

me beeing tired of ignorant people blaming the wrong scapegoat resulted in a maybe little harsh sounding answer

No worries, it happens to everyone. But thankfully we have people around who remind us, right?