21 replies to this topic

[ATao]

In it's current state MWO has two major design flaws.

- Imbalance in mech types. Why use medium when assault rolls better most of the time?
- Weapon inbalances. Some guns are plain better than others.

Introduction of clan tech has great potential of making these flaws even worse. And all PGI's doing is introducing crutches like ghost heat. Why use a crutch and painkillers when there are ways to heal the wound completely?

On the other hand we have Community Warfare coming to us later this year. It should become a pinnacle gameplay type for MWO. Some kind of endgame content. But looking at current MWO state makes you loose faith that it will be implemented in quality way.

The major concern is PURPOSE. Capturing and owning planets, making your faction hold more ground than enemy and things like that should provide appropriate pilots clear bonuses and advantages. But right now we have dead end economy. I have 50+ mechs and 245+mil c-bills. So what if I'll get 10% or 100% more c-bills than usual if my unit will hold some planets? Why should I even care if I have enough already just by playing at random queue?

The only good answer I have for all of the above mentioned problems is MAKING A BETTER ECONOMY. Below I'll show my fantasy of an example which imo can help mitigate many negative outcomes of design flaws.


Before I'll go any further I'd like to state one thing clearly. It's PERFECTLY FINE for some weapons and mechs to be imbalanced by pure technical stats. Many people enjoy finding such things and wielding them. Others enjoy killing those "cheese lovers". Tech imbalance provides FUN for people. There should be no total similarity in all guns.

Every power should have a price.

Ammo - price for every shell&missile. Rearm after the game for c-bills.
Mech components - price for every tonn of armor. Guns, structure, anything spent or damaged in battle should be repaired for c-bills.

All prices should be totally rebalanced with things written below in mind:

1. Medium mechs - main battlemechs. They should be cheapest in R&R with the target of making 'em most profitable mechs in the field. Wanna get some c-bills? Ride a medium into the battle. You get some profit even if with 50% of victories and without premium.
2. Light and heavy mechs - next price/performance category. They eat more c-bills in R&R than mediums. If you run 'em with 50/50 W/L and no premium you won't get any profit at all.
3. Assaults - expensive badasses. If you play on them and get 50/50 W/L you'll loose more c-bills than you earn and eventually you won't be able to repair it and play again. Even with premium.
4. XL engines, endo steel, ferro-fibrous, artemis - all those upgrades increase the cost of R&R. Wanna pimp your mech? Get your c-bills ready or play good with better than average win % .
5. Say no to "you pay for 50% ammo and the rest is free". Adjust prices accordingly and make it "player pays 100%". There should be no loopholes like with artemis ammo in CBT.

I'll repeat again. All and every price should be looked at and changed appropriatly to fit in the new economy. Match rewards should be rebalanced accordingly as well. Wanna run in you favourite AC40 jager? AOK! But better play good and win alot because that XL300, 2*AC20+ammo on heavy platform will cost you when some blackjack on standard engine with 6mls will wrack your back. No need for ghost heats or other difficult stuff when mr c-bill can balance it all.

Same goes for future Community Warfare. Strong factions that are winning and taking more territories will get more c-bills and will have less problems with R&R riding better mechs. Wanna try to take a planet? Get your 12 assaults ready. Lost your invasion? Well your pilots just got nasty c-bill hit in their wallets. You won't be able to mass invade if you don't have enough money. On the other hand strong successful units will get more income to support further battles. And it will require skill to defeat c-bill fat opponent if you have less economical resourses. That provides challenge and competition. Challenge and competition = fun.

Suddenly there's no need to create difficult systems to balance clan tech. It's the most expensive after all so it could be better than sphere tech. Just make sure that IS mechs are able to equip clan stuff as well.

This model is good not only for players (balance) but for PGI as well. Some players will always want to cover their losses with $. They will get more MC to convert it to c-bills to repair that favourite assault they run with 40/60-50/50 W/L but still enjoy riding. Need for better mech profitability will raise demand for hero mechs as well. And all that still won't be "pay to win", only "pay to cover losses".

Noobs aren't a problem at all. Make first X (10. 50. 100, ??) number of battles free of R&R and that's it. They'll have enough time to learn the ropes with no losses.


I perfectly understand that my ideas are nothing more than well... ideas . I'm not trying to look smart here. And I don't want to do the work for PGI and crunch all the numbers for them. It's their work, I'm paying 'em for it. I just want to say it's possible to balance mechs&weapons via other means than direct buffs&nerfs to their technical stats. And it just happens so that those "other means" play good with future Community Warfare. Other successful online games have already proven that those economy models work fine. Why aren't we using them?

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 23 January 2014 - 03:56 PM.

[Threat Doc]

I love the ideas, and the spirit you've put into it, but PGI have all but said any return to Repair & Reload will have to be revisited after Community Warfare Phase Three.

For the record, I 100% agree with you that it's absolutely necessary to have a proper economy in-game, once based off the Mercenary's Handbook and Mercenary's Handbook: 3055 for mercenary's and, since it's really the only economy established for the BattleTech universe, it could be a base for other economy types for Houses, Clans, Pirates, Periphery States, etc.

[6xero9]

they got rid of ammo and repair costs due to people not fixing up their mechs or re-arming in-between conflicts

[Josef Nader]

R&R was awful, and removing it was one of the best decisions PGI ever made.

Once we have some kind of metagame a la Community Warfare, and management features. Without those, people just exploit ways around R&R, or worse yet, completely avoid fighting each other.

There was a period in Closed Beta where almost every match was both teams avoiding each other as much as possible and racing for base cap. It was the worst period of this game, bar none. I'll take poptarts any day.

[NextGame]

R&R promotes bad gameplay.

The economy needs to be a balance in initial purchase of mech/equipment costs on a factional basis, and maybe even xp gain rate.

There is also no real economy where it is simply trade between Player and PGI, and not between Player & Player, and doesnt include things like salvaged components etc.

[Mahws]

All it means is that players with established C-Bill mountains like us will play whatever we want and players starting out/saving up for something will be relegated to 'budget builds' or simply grinding by not repairing/re-arming fully. That's exactly what happened with R&R in closed beta and that's exactly what would happen again if they brought it back as a balancing method.

That and it seriously pushes the 'pay for advantage' envelope. Essentially it'd make the game 'Pay to not be punished'. Players without premium time boosting their wins would have to choose between earning c-bills or playing what they want/being competitive. Any balancing method you can essentially buy your way out of using real world monies is a bad direction.

Edited by Mahws, 24 January 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[Sandpit]

Mahws, on 24 January 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

All it means is that players with established C-Bill mountains like us will play whatever we want and players starting out/saving up for something will be relegated to 'budget builds' or simply grinding by not repairing/re-arming fully.

Most seem to forget this and EXACTLY why nerfing the economy was a good thing. We have at least one player with a billion cbills and plenty more with millions upon millions. They got that way from a loose economy. The economy in its current form mitigates and helps prevent that

[o0Marduk0o]

Having an idea is not enough to make a suggestion. You have to think about if from any angle.
There was a reason why they removed R&R.

Find something which you can't exploit.

[ATao]

R&R "exploits".
I'm playing MWO since August 2012. I know how R&R worked in CBT. It had problems because of crappy realisation not because the concept is wrong in itself. "75% for free, pay for 25% of ammo" is not how you make it. You adjust ammo price accordingly and make it "pay 100%". You don't allow entering the game on damaged mech either. That's it. No way to abuse the system.

Race caps.
In fact were not caused by R&R. Caping was faster than now. And sometimes teams just took different flanks. After that it's either cap or be capped as you were not able to return to def in time. Right now base cap is slow enough and with 12v12 you have enough people to cover flanks.

"Rich vs poor".
With current economy model this problem is inevitable. Those who started to play earlier as long as they continue playing will always have more c-bills and bigger hangars. They will buy new mechs as they come while newbies will have to grind to fill their hangar with tens of machines.

Proper economy balances this difference. Even if you have a stockpile of c-bills but go on assault and loose most of the time eventually this stockpile will disappear. Even the biggest savings go to nothing if player is not getting stable c-bill income.

That way even veterans will have to play more often on profit efficient mechs in randoms. New players will be rolling on them too cause they need c-bills to purchase new mechs. That means that newcomers will be facing veterans on mediums against mediums or something similar. They won't be stomped by bored assault squads that often.

P.S.
I perfectly understand that new economy is not an easy thing to implement and that I won't be seeing it anytime soon. I do hope though that PGI will be able to revisit this problem in question as they release Community Warfare features. I strongly believe that without proper economy CW will be just a hollow shadow of possibilities that go with economy dependant warfare.

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 24 January 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[KAMA3]

up!

[Joseph Mallan]

6xero9, on 23 January 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

they got rid of ammo and repair costs due to people not fixing up their mechs or re-arming in-between conflicts

Those folks should have been punished on the battlefields for doing it too. Instead PGI took the easy button.

[Name115734]

Lovely stuff Joseph, but unfortunately, until a studio comes along with a revamp, this stuff will remain just another great idea PGI overlooks.

[xTrident]

I like your ideas, but I don't think I'd like them implemented. From the sounds of what you want to do, I wouldn't make any money. It sounds like a very slim profit margin even if you run a medium mech... Basically, as slow going as it is for me to obtain any new mechs it would be even worse, if not completely stagnant.

You've gotta think of the players like me that only have four mechs total, three of them being assaults because I went that route on the current system, and a very little cbills. I can guarantee you had the system you're talking about been implemented when I first started a medium mech would have been my mech of choice to start. As it stands, the only medium I have is the challenge Centurion. I have enough equipment to outfit my assaults pretty well, and my Centurion is decent. Want to know how many cbills I have after all that? 8.6 mil. That's it. I wouldn't make jack didley under your system. And that's about the only downside I can see to it.

Edited by xTrident, 28 February 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

It's too tempting to shout "World of 'Mechs" about this idea, but after a few more re-reads I think it could work. R&R is not the easiest thing in the world to balance, but I'd appreciate it for the immersion.

I've wanted to suggest the following from time to time:

Require R&R to drop a 'Mech, and allow the player's 'Mech to be repaired automatically for free if they wait a certain amount of time.

But the problem with my own idea is that newer players would be forced to take C-Bill hits with their smaller pool of machines, or worse, PGI would abuse it for a "repair all for MC" button.

That's right folks, a person admitted his own idea is worse than the OP's. Hell will freeze over any second.

[Davers]

I am not sure what you think R&R would do. A Highlander with a standard engine would still be very cheap and profitable to run.

It would hurt new players much more than old players. It would hurt solo droppers worse than group droppers. It would hurt 'free to play' players worse than Premium time or Hero mech players. It would encourage 'pop tarting' and not fighting/base caps more than it would fighting. It would punish good players who know how to torso twist to spread damage more than just standing still and being cored. It would encourage the idea that things shouldn't be 'balanced' because x item costs more than y item and so should just be superior. Instead of being forced to actually create Role Warfare it would leave lights and mediums in the 'role' of 'cheap mech to make money in so I can play the mech I really wanted to play'.

Every time you drop in your 'cheap money maker' someone else would be dropping in their 'death machine', forcing you to make your money on losses.

I am not sure why the OP thinks lights and heavies SHOULD require paying real money to break even. Isn't that P2W?

I am also not sure why people feel the need to 'punish' new players and bad players. Isn't it enough that they lost the match? Now they can't run their mech either?

I don't think a CW where a winning faction is awash with Cbills and a losing faction is selling off mechs to afford repairs is a good idea. I believe that would be called a 'death spiral'? http://socratesrpg.b...ath-spiral.html

[William Slayer]

I feel that this could be made to work and retain the flavor/feel of the TT version where Assault/Heavy mechs were kings/game changers but wickedly expensive to field. Mediums have always been the dogsoldiers of the battlefield. A pack of them can takedown heavys and assaults and turn the tide of the battle.correct me if I am wrong but that has always been my feel 4 the game.revamping the economy so that this is reflected in a monetary sense makes a lot of sense to me.I have to disagree with the original poster on the subject of lights, as I have always seen them as the cheap disposable scouts with the exception of the sophisticated electronics packages that are attached to the ravens in the class.

overall, I feel like this has potential to allow the players with large bank rolls to field next that can be game changers, while always making sure that the Dog Soldiers through teamwork can make them pay for their arrogance in believing that they are the best on the field.

[One of Little Harmony]

I think there are two primary modes players look for in this game: winning games at all costs, and earning c-bills.

I do like your R&R balance idea, but instead, I think that it should be more on the level of how many c-bills someone makes a match. It works better, in game for clan vs inner sphere tech, because one could surmise that i salvage, c-bills, etc would be of less interest for a clanner. However, this could easily transfer over to LMHA with the assaults having some sort of C-bill nerf.

So, if you want to play assault you might make 25k a winning match, but a medium might do 250k.

[Joseph Mallan]

Funny thing When we had R&R I was a Multi millionaire, With Stockpiles of equipment. Since we lost R&R I am broke!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 March 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[ollo]

Alexander Malthus, on 23 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

1. Medium mechs - main battlemechs. They should be cheapest in R&R with the target of making 'em most profitable mechs in the field. Wanna get some c-bills? Ride a medium into the battle. You get some profit even if with 50% of victories and without premium.
2. Light and heavy mechs - next price/performance category. They eat more c-bills in R&R than mediums. If you run 'em with 50/50 W/L and no premium you won't get any profit at all.
3. Assaults - expensive badasses. If you play on them and get 50/50 W/L you'll loose more c-bills than you earn and eventually you won't be able to repair it and play again. Even with premium.
4. XL engines, endo steel, ferro-fibrous, artemis - all those upgrades increase the cost of R&R. Wanna pimp your mech? Get your c-bills ready or play good with better than average win % .
5. Say no to "you pay for 50% ammo and the rest is free". Adjust prices accordingly and make it "player pays 100%". There should be no loopholes like with artemis ammo in CBT.

Seeing that 50/50 is the target W/L for everyone (if ELO were working correctly), all you say is utter BS that will kill the game as it did in beta.

[Karl Streiger]

When you want to have a working RnR system - it must have One condition:
you can't pay with real money!!!

That means you need a third "currency" - Resource or Honor Points.
You need them for refiting a Mech, repair and order more ammunition as is delivered other wise.

Resources are highly dependable on the ammount of salvage - a utterly destroyed enemy Mech will not create much salvage... so destroying an enemy Mech with low damage must be the goal....

Ammunition and spare parts are generated per bay and battle in the Mech in this bay - by a standard factor.

For example 5t spare parts and 2t of ammunition - you have a Mech with 10tons of ammunition - shredding enemy mechs to tiny bits in every battle - and dealing almost > 1000 dmg per battle.
Congrats - > you Mech is not economy - you destroy valuable salvage, you need more resources than you should. On the other hand - you generate tons of C-Bills....

So you can have a Mech that farm C-Bills like current quad AC builds - and when you aim as worse as the most I've seen.... you really need two or three Mechs to farm resource points.... (although you have to become a better player to do this)