68 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

Assuming that 100% accuracy can be achieved with hit detection.. what role will light mechs have with so many weapons having instant front-load damage?


Even with imperfect hit detection, you already see an issue where people who know how to aim can devastate light mechs with the heavier AC's and PPC's.

So how do you ultimately allow a viable role on the battlefield(given the complete failure of role warfare in this game thus far) with reliable hit detection with the current state of weapon damage for light mechs?

[Khobai]

I think that question is more relevant to medium mechs to be honest. Because light mechs at least have the speed to run away. Mediums are barely faster than most heavies.

[Adiuvo]

Nobody has perfect accuracy. Even the best players miss somewhat against the better lights. However, overall assault maneuverability is a problem that needs to be fixed, either through nerfs to Class 1/2 JJs or to innate assault mech turning speeds. Currently all assault mechs in the game can track a light mech without even torso twisting up to around 50m while moving around 50kph.

Edited by Adiuvo, 28 January 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[Mawai]

Honestly, if they get hit detection close to 100% and this has a significant impact on lights and mediums then I would likely expect tweaks to the mech sizes to compensate.

[Foxfire]

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Nobody has perfect accuracy. Even the best players miss somewhat against the better lights. However, overall assault maneuverability is a problem that needs to be fixed, either through nerfs to Class 1/2 JJs or to innate assault mech turning speeds. Currently all assault mechs in the game can track a light mech without even torso twisting up to around 50m while moving around 50kph.

The 100% accuracy means no hit detection problems, not a player that hits every shot .

I agree tha mediums have a problem in general with the lack of drop limitations or cost controls. The reason I bring up lights, other than out of bias, is the existence of weapons that can wreck lights on a single shot on their own.

[Joe Kid]

Then also if hit detection reaches near 100%, what happens when they bring collisions back? Your team mate knocks down the pesky spider and boom, ac 20 to the face! I honestly hope collisions do comeback. I was a much better pilot back then. I also want the dragon to has its old innate ability to tackle larger mechs! You can have a module that adds 10 tons to the knock down algorithm.

[Khobai]

Quote

Currently all assault mechs in the game can track a light mech without even torso twisting up to around 50m while moving around 50kph.

If assault mechs couldnt track lights thered be zero reason to play assault mechs anymore. the entire role of an assault mech is being able to beat most other mechs in 1v1 combat.

conversely, the role of a light mech isnt countering assaults. its not even supposed to be combat. light mechs are for scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare, fighting other lights, harassing support mechs, and finishing off damaged enemy mechs.

its completely absurd that light mech pilots think they should beat assaults 1v1. instead light mech pilots should be pushing for non-combat roles to be strengthened, so light mechs can contribute to their team winning without having to compete with heavies and assaults at combat.

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Foxfire, on 28 January 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Assuming that 100% accuracy can be achieved with hit detection.. what role will light mechs have with so many weapons having instant front-load damage?


Even with imperfect hit detection, you already see an issue where people who know how to aim can devastate light mechs with the heavier AC's and PPC's.

So how do you ultimately allow a viable role on the battlefield(given the complete failure of role warfare in this game thus far) with reliable hit detection with the current state of weapon damage for light mechs?

Scouting, raiding and any other mission where where a small fast uni would excel! PPCs and heavier ACs are supposed to smash light opponents. It is the give portion of the give and take being a light Mech. You are fast and mobile, Agility & cover is your armor.

When you say 100% accuracy you mean that the weapons hit where we are truly aiming not that the weapons always hit the enemy right?

[Bagheera]

Foxfire, on 28 January 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

So how do you ultimately allow a viable role on the battlefield(given the complete failure of role warfare in this game thus far) with reliable hit detection with the current state of weapon damage for light mechs?

I hate to sound like "one of those guys," but there have been so many threads, posts, suggestions, and debates over how to actually implement role warfare that they are beyond the scope of this thread.

Suffice to say that the game needs some sweeping changes before we can say that we have varied "roles," and that hit detection is pretty low on the list of things that affect "role warfare."

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

When you say 100% accuracy you mean that the weapons hit where we are truly aiming not that the weapons always hit the enemy right?

Foxfire, on 28 January 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

The 100% accuracy means no hit detection problems, not a player that hits every shot .

Yup, that's what he means.

[BarHaid]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Scouting, raiding and any other mission where where a small fast uni would excel! PPCs and heavier ACs are supposed to smash light opponents. It is the give portion of the give and take being a light Mech. You are fast and mobile, Agility & cover is your armor.

Raiding. Oh yes, that is what I want out of CW. The ability to drop two lances of lights on a planet, use those hand actuators for something, and escape with all the opposing force's supplies!

[Joseph Mallan]

BarHaid, on 29 January 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Raiding. Oh yes, that is what I want out of CW. The ability to drop two lances of lights on a planet, use those hand actuators for something, and escape with all the opposing force's supplies!

[627]

Lets see how those tonnage limits will play out. Maybe if there are no more than 4-6 assault mechs on the entire map this won't be an issue anymore. Or at least I hope so. This would actually be cool to have medium mechs as biggest force ans stumbling into an assault would mean something which needs combined power to bring it down.

Of course this could all go the wrong way with a troll lance of locusts freeing up tonnage for 6 meta victors or so...

[Joseph Mallan]

627, on 29 January 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Lets see how those tonnage limits will play out. Maybe if there are no more than 4-6 assault mechs on the entire map this won't be an issue anymore. Or at least I hope so. This would actually be cool to have medium mechs as biggest force ans stumbling into an assault would mean something which needs combined power to bring it down.

Of course this could all go the wrong way with a troll lance of locusts freeing up tonnage for 6 meta victors or so...

Let the (system)gaming begin!

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 29 January 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

conversely, the role of a light mechs isnt countering assaults. its not even supposed to be combat. light mechs are for scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare, fighting other lights, harassing support mechs, and finishing off damaged enemy mechs.

The role of a light 'mech in MWO is to fight other 'mechs. Period. Because there is literally nothing else to do.

If there were a point to and rewards for "scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare", I'm sure you'd have a lot of happy light 'mech pilots doing it. I know I'd be happy as a clam if I could get rewarded for finding and keeping tabs on the enemy; I don't care if I'd not fire a single shot if that was the case.

However, in the current MWO we're relegated to the singular task of fighting 'mechs double or more our own weight. And we get the added privilege of taking a lot of excrement from other players for having the audacity to play the game as it is to the best of our abilities, even though our 'mechs are not really built for it.

In other words, until we have role warfare, the role of a light doesn't differ from the role of an assault in any significant way, so don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Foxfire]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Scouting, raiding and any other mission where where a small fast uni would excel! PPCs and heavier ACs are supposed to smash light opponents. It is the give portion of the give and take being a light Mech. You are fast and mobile, Agility & cover is your armor.

When you say 100% accuracy you mean that the weapons hit where we are truly aiming not that the weapons always hit the enemy right?

The issue, though, is that with the high number of instant damage weapons in the game(all AC's and PPC), it only takes a moment of exposure to get ripped apart. I'd love for there to be expanded gameplay that doesn't involve wading into a slug fest or sitting on a node, tweedling thumbs. The key is that it has to be fun and it has to provide something worthwhile to the battle.

Also, I'm not talking so much about the weight issue but more about what will happen with the current weapon mechanics(with the high reliance on instant damage application weapons) once the hit detection issues are worked out. As is, once hit detection is worked out, it will be hard to imagine a role(in the current game) on the battlefield for a light that isn't anything more than cap rushing since it only takes a moment of exposure, even if you are sticking tight to cover, for these weapons to wreck your day.


Now, for those who are bringing up the old 'light vs assault' argument.. Light mechs shouldn't be able to rip apart assault mechs.. but assault mechs shouldn't feel like they should be immune to lights just because they are massive. The weaknesses and strengths of both types match up for a good battle. A good light pilot vs a good assault pilot should be a good battle with no guaranteed outcome because the speed and maneuverability of the light matches well against the weaknesses of the assault.. and the same for the armor and firepower of the assault matching well against the weaknesses of the light.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 29 January 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

The role of a light 'mech in MWO is to fight other 'mechs. Period. Because there is literally nothing else to do.

If there were a point to and rewards for "scouting, spotting, capping, electronic/information warfare", I'm sure you'd have a lot of happy light 'mech pilots doing it. I know I'd be happy as a clam if I could get rewarded for finding and keeping tabs on the enemy; I don't care if I'd not fire a single shot if that was the case.

However, in the current MWO we're relegated to the singular task of fighting 'mechs double or more our own weight. And we get the added privilege of taking a lot of excrement from other players for having the audacity to play the game as it is to the best of our abilities, even though our 'mechs are not really built for it.

In other words, until we have role warfare, the role of a light doesn't differ from the role of an assault in any significant way, so don't hate the player, hate the game.

This is because we are not playing MW:O yet. What planet have you concurred for your paymaster StJobe?

[Joseph Mallan]

Foxfire, on 29 January 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

The issue, though, is that with the high number of instant damage weapons in the game(all AC's and PPC), it only takes a moment of exposure to get ripped apart. I'd love for there to be expanded gameplay that doesn't involve wading into a slug fest or sitting on a node, tweedling thumbs. The key is that it has to be fun and it has to provide something worthwhile to the battle.

Also, I'm not talking so much about the weight issue but more about what will happen with the current weapon mechanics(with the high reliance on instant damage application weapons) once the hit detection issues are worked out. As is, once hit detection is worked out, it will be hard to imagine a role(in the current game) on the battlefield for a light that isn't anything more than cap rushing since it only takes a moment of exposure, even if you are sticking tight to cover, for these weapons to wreck your day.


Now, for those who are bringing up the old 'light vs assault' argument.. Light mechs shouldn't be able to rip apart assault mechs.. but assault mechs shouldn't feel like they should be immune to lights just because they are massive. The weaknesses and strengths of both types match up for a good battle. A good light pilot vs a good assault pilot should be a good battle with no guaranteed outcome because the speed and maneuverability of the light matches well against the weaknesses of the assault.. and the same for the armor and firepower of the assault matching well against the weaknesses of the light.

Its not a problem Fox its a decades old truism! One AC20 round pretty much ruined any light mech it came in contact with. And since most lights didn't come with anything near Max armor, Lights died like lightly armored war machines do. We are playing a war/combat game. Small light vehicles die horribly when the are hit.

We have to have a game to play before we condemn the combat mechanics. Light Mechs are not supposed to be able to withstand heavy weapons fire. A Stock MW:O Spider has 112 points of armor (56 n TT) Is that a brawling Mech? Should it be? It is meant to run in, shake things up and get out of the way fast! Sorry man I give up speed an maneuverability to have damage survivabilty. A Light Mech gives up endurance and punch for Speed. That is the give and take hat has been happening for 30 years in this universe.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Its not a problem Fox its a decades old truism! One AC20 round pretty much ruined any light mech it came in contact with. And since most lights didn't come with anything near Max armor, Lights died like lightly armored war machines do. We are playing a war/combat game. Small light vehicles die horribly when the are hit.

We have to have a game to play before we condemn the combat mechanics. Light Mechs are not supposed to be able to withstand heavy weapons fire. A Stock MW:O Spider has 112 points of armor (56 n TT) Is that a brawling Mech? Should it be? It is meant to run in, shake things up and get out of the way fast! Sorry man I give up speed an maneuverability to have damage survivabilty. A Light Mech gives up endurance and punch for Speed. That is the give and take hat has been happening for 30 years in this universe.

Yes, but your AC50 is also pinpoint (not a dice roll), as well as frontloaded.

"But all TT weapons are frontloaded" Yes, and those 10 second turns had all the weapons firing in sequence, not necessary all at once. We are playing a FPS with arguably horrid mechanics which raise certain weapons far above others in effectiveness.

As for the OP, had PGI implemented weapons properly, cutting the damage and heat by their recycle (and adding the same ratio for ammo) we could have stuck with stock armor, and lights would likely be pretty much just as effective as now.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 January 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Yes, but your AC50 is also pinpoint (not a dice roll), as well as frontloaded.

"But all TT weapons are frontloaded" Yes, and those 10 second turns had all the weapons firing in sequence, not necessary all at once. We are playing a FPS with arguably horrid mechanics which raise certain weapons far above others in effectiveness.

As for the OP, had PGI implemented weapons properly, cutting the damage and heat by their recycle (and adding the same ratio for ammo) we could have stuck with stock armor, and lights would likely be pretty much just as effective as now.

I am not supporting pin point convergent damage Mcgral... Never have. I am against convergence without the requirement of an Advanced targeting computer.

[Foxfire]

Nor am I suggesting that a light mech should be a brawling machine.

Like I said, I'm simply asking a practical question about where this game is going with regard to light mechs. There is a line between a weapon being feared and devastating and a weapon having the ability to completely remove an entire class of mechs from viability. So the question is.. is the only thing keeping the current weapon meta from crossing this line broken mechanics?

Now, as to judging the game. Yes, the game isn't finished. However, there has been little to show that PGI is going back towards a more varied warfare model that isn't centered around direct combat. Everything that has been added has been to that effect so far. Everything that has been proposed is to that effect now. Like I said, I'd love for a full role for light mechs that isn't centered around trying to play peek-a-boo with heavier mechs.. but they have to be fun to do, rewarding, and they have to have a real and legitimate impact on the match(something that will cause endless complaints by the non-light pilots, as seen for ages about capture mechanics). PGI hasn't shown any real momentum towards achieving the role warfare that they advertised as being the pillars of the game.

Also, you have to keep in mind the other part of your decades of truism...That being random hit rolls and random hit locations.. both of which wouldn't be good in a game like this. Since we have a game in which you can control where, at what, and when you fire, you will have a learning curve that will dictate a certain level of accuracy will be achieved by the typical gamer. Not a bad thing unless you don't build your game mechanics with that in mind.

And since this seems to be devolving a little bit into the old class vs class argument.. To avoid the arms race that has occurred in every other mechwarrior game, there is the need for each class to be able to stand a chance against the others. If I put myself into a position that is favorable to your strengths, damn right I should be destroyed. If you put yourself into a position that is favorable to my strengths.. I should be able to take you out. Otherwise, why bother having anything other than assaults?