38 replies to this topic

[FiveDigits]

Being underwhelmed by the first concept for Clan LRMs presented by Paul I tried to find a different solution.
The main issue brought up about Clan LRMs is that the absence of a minimum range would turn them into big Streak SRM launchers - while weighing considerably less and occupying less crit slots than IS LRMs. Those are valid concerns. Paul proposed three possible fixes:

• Increase Clan LRM heat.
  
• Give a 180m min range to Clan LRMS as well, but instead of cutting off damage to zero scale it exponentially from zero to full damage.
  
• Increase the launcher weight.

The heat increase is OK. Damage and heat values are two valid and easy tuning dials that are unlikely to break anything. The scaling damage, resembling old PPC mechanics, really puts me off. While it seemed possible to suspense one's disbelieve for a charged particle weapon, I can't grasp how a missile should do increasing damage the longer it flies. The payload stays the same. An explosion is an explosion. Yes, game mechanics are not real-life physics and they don't need to be, but some resemblence of logic would be nice - atleast for me personally. Finally, increasing the launcher weight seems a very problematic suggestion to me. Here we get into the territory of breaking existing standard mech builds. They didn't do that before and that was a good decision.

To find a better balancing solution I set a number of design goals for myself:

• Keep both varieties of LRMs useful.
  
• Retain the absence of minimum range for Clan LRMs.
  
• Do not break existing builds, i.e. don't touch launcher weights or crit slots.
  
• Try to model differences compatible with BT lore.

Thus, I came up with the following approach:

LRM firing arcs

The IS uses LRMs for direct and more importantly for indirect long range fire support. Clanners on the other hand favor honorable one-on-one combat (Zellbrigen). They also have a dislike for wastefulness which indirect fire undoubtedly provokes. My first balance suggestion would thus be to give Clan LRMs a much more shallow flight path which would make them close to useless for indirect fire. The illustration shows launch angles of 60° for IS vs. 30° for Clan. Those values are arbitrary and of course subject to testing and balancing.




Clan LRM launch spread

To avoid clan LRMs to be usable in a Streak SRM fashion without giving them a hard or soft minimum range my idea is to have them spread out (a lot) immediately after launch and converge to the level of IS LRMs at the min range of IS LRMs (180m). This would have a very similar effect to the damage scaling Paul proposed without individal missiles magically doing less damage before reaching 180m. The illustration shows a top down view comparison of the outer envelopes of LRM groups fired by each type of launcher. The Clan launcher fires its missiles at a maximum deflection of 45° to each side producing a 90° cone of fire that converges to the same missile grouping we currently have on IS LRMs launchers 180m out. Again the exact spread would have to be tuned and tested.



I think combining these two mechanics with heat and damage tuning where necessary would create two distinct useful LRM systems that offer balanced gameplay while retaining Battletech flavor.

[Edit:]
Other ideas are coming up in this thread and elswhere that could be combined with these suggestions. I'll list them here:

• Clan LRMs can only lock on with direct line of sight and lose lock very quickly.
  
• Clan mechs do not share target info. You can only target enemy mechs in your own sensors' range.
  
• Clan LRMs stagger fire (like suggested for Streaks) to give AMS more time to shoot them down and mechs more time to move to cover. One missile per salvo for LRM5s, two for LRM10s, three for LRM15s, four for LRM20s.

[Edit:]
More good ideas

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 January 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

To go along with the firing arc and spread behaviors you suggest, what if cLRMs had a faster movement speed but lower tracking capability? It would lessen the impact of defending AMS a bit, but make cover and maneuver more effective against them, while also promoting the flavor of cLRMs being intended more for straight-up fighting rather than mid-long fire support.

Also, I sort of like the idea of reducing their maximum range by 180m. This gives IS LRMs an edge at extreme ranges to compensate for cLRMs having no minimum. LRMs would still go to 1000m while cLRMs would air burst at 820m.

Edited by FiveDigits, 13 January 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[Greeneye]

Good ideas!

[JadenKorrDevore]

I actually really like your suggestions. I think they will really keep the feel of clan tech while still remaining balanced and useful.

[Malcivious]

Nice thoughts. Another option for minimal range, that would make it spread damage, is instead have the missiles salvo fire in bunches of 1-4 initially, so that AMS systems have a chance to take out more of the missiles, or running for cover gives damage reduction by giving the target a chance to hide after the initial hits. Then at 180+ meters, the missiles bunch up so that they hit more like standard LRMs.

Or, the other option is to have it so that Clan LRM's maintain their bonuses, with no heat increase (cause clan mechs seem to be know for heat efficiency) but fire in salvo's of 1-4 over their entire range. Again giving AMS, and running for cover increased effectiveness against Clan LRM's.

EDIT: Basically, a Clan LRM 20 would fire in a way that all 20 missiles would fire over a period between the cooldown. Sort of like the way a LRM 20 fires now when slotted in a 2, 4 or 5 tube launcher. An LRM 5 would fire 1 per salvo over the cooldown, LRM 10 would fire 2, LRM 15 would fire 3, and LRM 20 would fire 4... unless otherwise limited. Again, this would give the Clan LRM's the standard benefits, while making them less effective against AMS, and use of cover.

EDIT 2: It would also require a longer lock to get all damage on target, requiring skill, which is something else the clan is known for.

Edited by Malcivious, 09 January 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[FiveDigits]

Yes, there are plenty of BT-flavored adjustments that could be made. I'll add a few as an edit to the OP.

[anonymous161]

You got the right idea but this aint the clans that you remember. This is just a mockery of them, honestly they shouldn't call them clans they should give them a new name with a whoe different back story why they are different than IS.

[Mazgazine1]

That is a fantastic Idea and I think it would look totally bad ***.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Re: LRM scaling min range. The mechanic was meant to represent not every missile arming immediately, until they're all armed by 180m. Not that the payloads all detonate with magically smaller energies.

At least as I read it Good OP otherwise, though.

[Magos Titanicus]

I think that clan mechs should be superior in almost every manner. Crippling the weaponry is a poor solution. I'd prefer more intelligent match maker logic.

[Hexenhammer]

I'd much rather see these ideas than what PGI has planned.

But why is PGI going the easy route anyway? Time. Speed. Effort. Money.

I can tweak numbers in an XML file or what ever its called, faster, easier, and with less effort than I can programing new flight mechanics for Clan Missiles.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 09 January 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[Reitrix]

While you make some interesting ideas, i actually like the idea of scaling the damage. In a 'physics' sense, it represents the 20 missiles being launched, and arming sequentially, As opposed to the IS LRMs arming all at the same time. Beyond 180, All missiles are armed and deal damage accordingly. Under 180, not all the missiles have armed properly, and simply bounce off the target.

Under your idea, i could slap an LRM20, or 3 LRM10s or whatever, on a brawler build over a Streak 6, and launch it pointblank, dealing significantly more damage. AMS wont be able to stop any missiles at all in that range, and your firing arcs, while a good idea, wont work at all, as the missiles would contact before any arcing could occur.

If you want to represent the Clans dislike for waste, the arcs are a good idea. Such a shallow arc would encourage a Clansmen to be firing directly, rather than a Spheroid preferring to sit safely out of line of fire lobbing missiles that may or may not hit the intended target.

If we don't have a minimum range on CLRMs, they essentially become huge Streak Launchers, invalidating Streaks and even standard SRMs.

[Sephlock]

Reitrix, on 09 January 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Under your idea, i could slap an LRM20, or 3 LRM10s or whatever, on a brawler build over a Streak 6, and launch it pointblank, dealing significantly more damage. AMS wont be able to stop any missiles at all in that range, and your firing arcs, while a good idea, wont work at all, as the missiles would contact before any arcing could occur.

[Bitslizer]

another thing that can be tweak is the speed of the Clan missiles, make it slower will make it easier to dodge/shoot down with AMS, also if you use a flatter trajectory but keeping the same speed it mean the flight time is less, therefore needing to adjust the speed of the missiles so it arrive at same/later than IS missiles

[Roland]

Reitrix, on 09 January 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Under your idea, i could slap an LRM20, or 3 LRM10s or whatever, on a brawler build over a Streak 6, and launch it pointblank, dealing significantly more damage. AMS wont be able to stop any missiles at all in that range, and your firing arcs, while a good idea, wont work at all, as the missiles would contact before any arcing could occur.

Err..

But a Clan LRM20 weighs 5 tons for 20 damage. A Clan STRK6 weighs 3 tons for 18 damage. So the cstrk is doing 50% more damage per ton spent... a non-trivial amount. It's also only half the critical slots.

The streaks are still better infighting weapons.

[LaserAngel]

Arc, spread, and missile speed are all fine ways to add "flavor" to weapons. Give them old Inner Sphere LRM speed of 100 m/s. Clan Streaks at 200 m/s just like their Inner Sphere counter parts. I do not see a reason to stagger the the Streak 4/6 launcher when a single AMS can already handle multiple Streak 2s on IS Mechs and they fire simultaneously.

[Reitrix]

Roland, on 09 January 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Err..

But a Clan LRM20 weighs 5 tons for 20 damage. A Clan STRK6 weighs 3 tons for 18 damage. So the cstrk is doing 50% more damage per ton spent... a non-trivial amount. It's also only half the critical slots.

The streaks are still better infighting weapons.

Oh right, i forgot CStreaks also have 1000 Meter indirect range. Oh, wait. No they don't.
18 Damage for 3 Tons to 300ish meters.
20 damage for 5 tons to 1000 Meters + indirect fire.

Uhhhh yeah. I'll take that CLRM20 thanks. Especially since at close ranges like that, the majority of those missiles will hit center mass. Unlike the Streaks, which like to target legs and arms. Was funny to watch my Streaks home in on a Highlanders fully armored legs when his CT and RT was cherry red though.

[Statixstorm]

Why don't they just have the Clan LRMS launch at a much higher angle? make it difficult to hit someone within 180 while still leaving it possible and damaging.

They launch, almost go vertical, climb 20-30m then smooth out the trajectory at maybe 130-150m to that of normal LRMS. Think like a Javelin.

[Evinthal]

FiveDigits, on 09 January 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:

• Increase Clan LRM heat.
  
• Give a 180m min range to Clan LRMS as well, but instead of cutting off damage to zero scale it exponentially from zero to full damage.
  
• Increase the launcher weight.

The increase in heat generated would be fine, and so would the damage scaling inside of 180 meters. However, increasing launcher weight is probably not a good idea.

PGI has said they would take a look at it and see what builds it would invalidate, and I can tell you and them both right off of the bat, it invalidates the Timberwolf Prime, B, C, H, variants as well as that ******* Aiden Prydes Timberwolf (Could be a hero mech...). The Timberwolf has 8 variants through out its production cycle, 9 if you count the Pryde as one. So half of those go right out the window if they increase launcher weight.

[Roland]

Reitrix, on 09 January 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Oh right, i forgot CStreaks also have 1000 Meter indirect range. Oh, wait. No they don't.
18 Damage for 3 Tons to 300ish meters.
20 damage for 5 tons to 1000 Meters + indirect fire.

Uhhhh yeah. I'll take that CLRM20 thanks. Especially since at close ranges like that, the majority of those missiles will hit center mass. Unlike the Streaks, which like to target legs and arms. Was funny to watch my Streaks home in on a Highlanders fully armored legs when his CT and RT was cherry red though.

I actually suspect that LRM's will eventually get some kind of similar randomization of where they hit, now that the system has been developed for the streaks.

And yes, the LRM's range advantage is signficant... unless you are specifically designing your mech for an infight.

Getting a 50% increase in damage is not a trivial benefit.. it's one which will justify the reduction in range for many people.

[StalaggtIKE]

FiveDigits, on 09 January 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:

Being underwhelmed by the first concept for Clan LRMs presented by Paul I tried to find a different solution.
The main issue brought up about Clan LRMs is that the absence of a minimum range would turn them into big Streak SRM launchers - while weighing considerably less and occupying less crit slots than IS LRMs. Those are valid concerns. Paul proposed three possible fixes:

• Increase Clan LRM heat.
  
• Give a 180m min range to Clan LRMS as well, but instead of cutting off damage to zero scale it exponentially from zero to full damage.
  
• Increase the launcher weight.

The heat increase is OK. Damage and heat values are two valid and easy tuning dials that are unlikely to break anything. The scaling damage, resembling old PPC mechanics, really puts me off. While it seemed possible to suspense one's disbelieve for a charged particle weapon, I can't grasp how a missile should do increasing damage the longer it flies. The payload stays the same. An explosion is an explosion. Yes, game mechanics are not real-life physics and they don't need to be, but some resemblence of logic would be nice - atleast for me personally. Finally, increasing the launcher weight seems a very problematic suggestion to me. Here we get into the territory of breaking existing standard mech builds. They didn't do that before and that was a good decision.

To find a better balancing solution I set a number of design goals for myself:

• Keep both varieties of LRMs useful.
  
• Retain the absence of minimum range for Clan LRMs.
  
• Do not break existing builds, i.e. don't touch launcher weights or crit slots.
  
• Try to model differences compatible with BT lore.

Thus, I came up with the following approach:

LRM firing arcs

The IS uses LRMs for direct and more importantly for indirect long range fire support. Clanners on the other hand favor honorable one-on-one combat (Zellbrigen). They also have a dislike for wastefulness which indirect fire undoubtedly provokes. My first balance suggestion would thus be to give Clan LRMs a much more shallow flight path which would make them close to useless for indirect fire. The illustration shows launch angles of 60° for IS vs. 30° for Clan. Those values are arbitrary and of course subject to testing and balancing.




Clan LRM launch spread

To avoid clan LRMs to be usable in a Streak SRM fashion without giving them a hard or soft minimum range my idea is to have them spread out (a lot) immediately after launch and converge to the level of IS LRMs at the min range of IS LRMs (180m). This would have a very similar effect to the damage scaling Paul proposed without individal missiles magically doing less damage before reaching 180m. The illustration shows a top down view comparison of the outer envelopes of LRM groups fired by each type of launcher. The Clan launcher fires its missiles at a maximum deflection of 45° to each side producing a 90° cone of fire that converges to the same missile grouping we currently have on IS LRMs launchers 180m out. Again the exact spread would have to be tuned and tested.



I think combining these two mechanics with heat and damage tuning where necessary would create two distinct useful LRM systems that offer balanced gameplay while retaining Battletech flavor.

[Edit:]
Other ideas are coming up in this thread and elswhere that could be combined with these suggestions. I'll list them here:

• Clan LRMs can only lock on with direct line of sight and lose lock very quickly.
  
• Clan mechs do not share target info. You can only target enemy mechs in your own sensors' range.
  
• Clan LRMs stagger fire (like suggested for Streaks) to give AMS more time to shoot them down and mechs more time to move to cover. One missile per salvo for LRM5s, two for LRM10s, three for LRM15s, four for LRM20s.

Brilliant ideas! Mods please pass this one on!