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This Needs To Be Fixed.


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#241 Dimento Graven

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:00 PM

View PostGrrzoot, on 30 January 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Removing the cockpit entirely i feel is of a completely different level, and notwithstanding pgi's current stance, is dangerouly close to being an exploit.

As an example, a stalker cannot see a locust that is standing underneath it because of torso range and the bottom part of the cockpit, by removing the cockpit in it's entirety, not to mention the extra FOV, the locust is now visible to the stalker pilot because of this change.

That change results in removing an advantage for another player in a way that negatively impacts his play. That is the part that bothers me, not necessarily that it confers advantage to the player, and is 100% undetectable, but that you are removing certain, and what should be given, choices of other players.

that , to me, is the definition of an exploit. Even if we say for argument that this confers no advantage to you, as a using player, it removes other players abilities to be certain that certain game mechanics are in place to allow for a certain style of play, thereby negatively impacting them, and throwing off the idea of a level playing field.
Now see that's where I have issue with the 'immersiveness' of the game. I find it totally unbelievable that someone would allow a billion dollars of war machine have such a critical blind spot that anyone with a pickup truck and a few pounds of C4 could sneak up and destroy it without being able to see it in some fashion.

Yeah, yeah, we have plenty of real life examples of it happening, but of the examples I can think of it, wasn't blind spots, but bad decisions of those commanding/piloting those ships/planes made when judging the intent of the parties in a rowboat or riding up to their wing. They SAW them, they just made a bad decision.

In this game, the nimbleness of the light, difficulty in hitting it, and speed all add up to pretty significant benefits of the chassis. Add zero knock downs, and the pieces of {Scrap} can hump your leg and there's not a thing you can do about it. In fact MOST mechs can't even aim that low, cockpit or no, so it's a moot point. Back when there was knock downs, you'd NEVER have a light 'mech get THAT close to a heavy/assault 'mech on purpose.

If/when we get knock downs back, I would hazard your worries of large 'mechs seeing small mechs humping their legs will become academic, as no light will want to get closer than 50 meters to anything large enough to sport multiple PPC's. The 'advantage' as you call it is itself actually an 'exploit' that did not exist before knocks downs were removed from game after Paul suffered a 'knock down bukakke' moment, as all a larger 'mech had to do to resolve the problem was bump the smaller and *poof*, it's on its butt getting shot at.

At the absolute worst it would be one exploit counteracting another.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 30 January 2014 - 05:01 PM.


#242 Mawai

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:50 PM

To be honest ... can anyone really say that cockpit glass has made any difference to the gameplay?

It is an artistic effect that may make it a little more difficult to see. However, personally, I consider it mostly a waste of resources ... they must have had artists sitting around doing not much of anything when they decided to get them working on something as essentially useless as cockpit glass.

On the topic of the original post in this thread ... someone tweaked the cfg file. It isn't a hack ... PGI has stated that you are allowed to make changes to the cfg file within reason though they have not clearly defined what is reasonable. Other than that the rest of the quoted paragraph about hacking is completely meaningless. When spectating you are viewing the other players cockpit with your video settings that is it.

#243 Dean Ackles Winchester

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:52 PM

View PostShamous13, on 30 January 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

where did you get this info?

Hello,
This CVAR will be blocked in the next patch. This alteration does give an unfair advantage to a player which is against our Code of Conduct, however it's not really possible to track so the best we can do is fix it in the next patch, Feb 4th.
Cheers!
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

That same Reddit I linked earlier

http://www.reddit.co...vf/damn_it_pgi/

#244 Mahws

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:01 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

The point is this, you can reduce the amount of cockpit that obscures your vision just using FoV. "Narrows" is not the word I would use. Going from a 75 degree angle to 100 seemed to broaden it for me, and again, eliminated more of that functionless cockpit that I don't need to see.

I guess I'm not certain why a Jager being able to see down is so "game breaking" myself. Your hysteria on this seems excessive. And, by the way, ECM doesn't affect seismic, so...



A) No, you really, really can't. Again, that's not how FoV works, it simply widens or narrows the angle of view. It in no way changes to position of the camera.
B) Seismic doesn't allow you to aim at an enemy, it only shows their location on the minimap.
C) Strawmaning me as 'hysterical' doesn't achieve anything other than making you less uncomfortable about the fact that I don't agree with your perception of an issue. Try to keep the discussion mature, you don't need to resort to personal attacks with every reply.
D) It's not 'game breaking' it's an advantage, something that someone without a cockpit can do (see their target clearly when shooting down or up) that other players can't. An advantage doesn't need to be massive to be a balance problem.

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Next, if the players below you have the same setting, if they so choose, they can easily fire back up at you, though, if it's Jagers below you, chances are they won't need it anyway, given the upward range the Jager can fire.



The roof of the Jager's cockpit blocks your view firing upwards almost as much as it does firing down. "It's balanced if everyone uses it" isn't an argument, you can argue anything from that perspective (A gauss rifle that shoots 1500 damage bullets is balanced if everyone uses it).

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Of course this is also assuming that the cockpit is SO IMPORTANT it won't 'disappear' from view the moment you press Zoom, which on every mech I've tested, it pretty much does.



If you aim down and press zoom you get a nice close up view of your cockpit floor. Pressing zoom does not make your cockpit dissapear.

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Given that it vanishes from direct view (barring the absolutely useless 'free view'), in 2/3's of thenon-3PV viewing modes, I'm guessing the cockpit ain't that important for game play.



If you think free view is useless then I'm legitamately confused as to whether you've ever played the game. How is being able to aim sideways with your arm whilst keeping your damaged torso faced away from an enemy useless? How is being able to aim directly up or down at an enemy firing at you from a cliff useless?

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Well then, the obvious solution is so obvious. If you're SO worried that there will now be wandering hordes of cockpitless Jagers wandering the game shooting down at defenseless mechs, all PGI has to do is restrict the downward angle that the Jager can aim.



So, every mech in the game will no longer be able to fire down or up just so a minority of users can see the match the way they want it?

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

What is the frickin' point of allowing the Jager to aim so high and so low if where your guns aim is blocked by your own cockpit? THAT is stupid.

More so by someone believing it's some sort of 'balance' issue.



Because you can still blind fire at target locks. It's a handicap rather than a restriction.

And again, calling me stupid isn't an argument against my point of view. Being meaner doesn't make you righter.


View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Yes, but this only required 14 characters in the USER.CFG, so I'm more apt to do it. It requires ZERO technical knowledge and only the ability to 'type'.

It's 'low hanging fruit'.



So would be disabling trees and smoke effects if those config commands hadn't been blocked due to balance issues.

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Disabling trees and smoke effects would seem to me to be MORE of game breaking issue as the trees and smoke provide cover, and maps like Forest Colony would become absolute easy pickins for us snipers without the trees providing some obscuring affect on our targets.



And would provide no advantage on Tourmaline, HPG, Alpine and Crimson Strait where there are no sprite trees. Just like disabling the cockpit provides no advantages on Terre Therma and River City where there are few cliffs steep enough to warrant firing directly up or down. A situational advantage is still an advantage.

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

If you believe that was 'deliberate, well... Whatever, and it was "SO FAIR" that they disabled the mode completely in the 12 man queue. Yeah, THAT sure was a fair view mode...



They disabled it on the 12 man queue because the hardcore fanbase was extremely opposed to it even existing and it was good PR to throw them a bone that wouldn't impact the reason they added 3rd person view in the first place, which was to appeal to a wider casual audience. If 3rd person view was actually better than 1st person for anything other than peeking over a hill I'd have probably seen it more than five times in a match since it was introduced.

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

From what I understand, PGI has disabled the ability to remove trees using the USER.CFG, so you don't have to worry there. As far as smoke, I've no idea on that at all, I think its lessened considerably if you set your graphics settings to low, so obviously it's not that important, also given the fact that if you press 'H' on certain maps, you can see through it...


That was my point, yes. They disabled the ability to stop the rendering of trees because in a very specific circumstance (hiding in the trees in Forest Colony) it gives an advantage to a player that's disabled the feature over one who hasn't. Which is why I used it as an example as to why I personally believe that they should disable removing the cockpit because in a very specific circumstance (firing directly upwards or downwards) it gives an advantage to a player that's disabled the feature over one who hasn't.

Edited by Mahws, 30 January 2014 - 06:04 PM.


#245 Grrzoot

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:21 PM

View PostDimento Graven, on 30 January 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Now see that's where I have issue with the 'immersiveness' of the game. I find it totally unbelievable that someone would allow a billion dollars of war machine have such a critical blind spot that anyone with a pickup truck and a few pounds of C4 could sneak up and destroy it without being able to see it in some fashion.

Yeah, yeah, we have plenty of real life examples of it happening, but of the examples I can think of it, wasn't blind spots, but bad decisions of those commanding/piloting those ships/planes made when judging the intent of the parties in a rowboat or riding up to their wing. They SAW them, they just made a bad decision.

In this game, the nimbleness of the light, difficulty in hitting it, and speed all add up to pretty significant benefits of the chassis. Add zero knock downs, and the pieces of {Scrap} can hump your leg and there's not a thing you can do about it. In fact MOST mechs can't even aim that low, cockpit or no, so it's a moot point. Back when there was knock downs, you'd NEVER have a light 'mech get THAT close to a heavy/assault 'mech on purpose.

If/when we get knock downs back, I would hazard your worries of large 'mechs seeing small mechs humping their legs will become academic, as no light will want to get closer than 50 meters to anything large enough to sport multiple PPC's. The 'advantage' as you call it is itself actually an 'exploit' that did not exist before knocks downs were removed from game after Paul suffered a 'knock down bukakke' moment, as all a larger 'mech had to do to resolve the problem was bump the smaller and *poof*, it's on its butt getting shot at.

At the absolute worst it would be one exploit counteracting another.


I didn't come on here to continue any sort of argument, only to really put my position out there as i saw it. But you are really really trying hard to defend this, so i guess i must respond.

so: first paragraph- strawman argument

second paragraph: no blinds spots- please see tanks

third paragraph: true, Most mechs cannot shoot that low, Unless they have arm mounted weapons. But this change allows highlanders to now see their cursor below thier cockpit. Leg humping light, jump up and aim down with arm mounted weapons.

paragraph four: your a calling a current game setting, one that needed to be adjusted because of the dragon bowling you mentioned, an exploit, but it is currently a main part of the game. You are using the definition of exploit wrong. And just because you believe that knockdowns will force lights to stay at a safe distance so you can shoot them with your lrm stalker does not mean that good light pilots still won't do it. I can name probably half a dozen great light pilots who will still be just as good knockbacks or no, and this change definately affects them as well as any player who uses close range, flanking, or other tactics to overcome certain mech limitations.

It doesn't really matter as it is out of our hands now and up to PGI. TBH i do not mean to be confrontational, in fact I want to thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention, without it we wouldn't even know it existed, or that people had all-ready been using this. So thank you again.

But i think we should just agree to disagree, Our opinions on this matter are just that, and aren't going to be changed by any amount of argument.

#246 MechFrog1

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:57 PM

View PostMawai, on 30 January 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

To be honest ... can anyone really say that cockpit glass has made any difference to the gameplay?
Since it deliberately obscures the player's view out of his/her mech, everyone can say that it has made a difference in game play. It's a feature that no one wanted and only exists to make the game look worse.

#247 Haji1096

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:13 PM

I don't think this is a big deal.

I've been wearing glasses since I was 7 years old so I'm always looking through cockpit glass.

Its even worse when I hold my left arm out and pretend its an AC/20.

#248 Dymlos2003

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:16 PM

View Postmint frog, on 30 January 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Since it deliberately obscures the player's view out of his/her mech, everyone can say that it has made a difference in game play. It's a feature that no one wanted and only exists to make the game look worse.


I rarely notice it and does not obscure anything

#249 Mystere

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:24 PM

Someone from PGI has already said it's ok (for now anyway), and yet ...

:D

#250 100mile

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM

View PostFupDup, on 27 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Real Translation

If something that a lot of people don't like gets added to the game, you should not be surprised when you see players trying to get around it.



I'm also not sure if this workaround qualifies as "cheating" seeing how it's just an FoV adjustment (which have been legal for quite some time).

Not legal as it creates a tactical advantage.....Did you not read the Admin's post restating the rule that says you can only mess with the CFG file if it doesn't give a tactical advantage...

IMO anybody caught doing this or that can be proven to have done it should be banned from the game for an extended period of time.

#251 Mahws

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM

View PostMystere, on 30 January 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Someone from PGI has already said it's ok (for now anyway), and yet ...

:D

Someone from PGI has also said that it's going to be removed in the Feb 4th patch. Guess we'll see how it goes.

Edited by Mahws, 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM.


#252 RG Notch

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:30 PM

View Post100mile, on 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not legal as it creates a tactical advantage.....Did you not read the Admin's post restating the rule that says you can only mess with the CFG file if it doesn't give a tactical advantage...

IMO anybody caught doing this or that can be proven to have done it should be banned from the game for an extended period of time.

LEGAL, did you not read the PGI employee specifically saying it's allowed? Anyone who uses it is within the rules.

#253 Mystere

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:30 PM

View PostMahws, on 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Someone from PGI has also said that it's going to be removed in the Feb 4th patch. Guess we'll see how it goes.


Toned down, not removed.

#254 100mile

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:37 PM

View PostRG Notch, on 30 January 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

LEGAL, did you not read the PGI employee specifically saying it's allowed? Anyone who uses it is within the rules.

As long as it doesn't create a tactical advantage...which this clearly does... You need to read the whole statement and not try to twist it to mean what you want it to because you wanna cheat...

#255 RG Notch

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:40 PM

View Post100mile, on 30 January 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

As long as it doesn't create a tactical advantage...which this clearly does... You need to read the whole statement and not try to twist it to mean what you want it to because you wanna cheat...

No, you need to read the post where the PGI employee specifically states you can remove the cockpit, and no I'm not going to find it for you, it's in this very thread. So you can try to twist that answer to say it's cheating, but good luck with that. :D

#256 Mister Blastman

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:45 PM

This is cheating.

#257 RG Notch

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:46 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 30 January 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

This is cheating.

Not according to PGI. :D

#258 Roland

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:58 PM

View Post100mile, on 30 January 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not legal as it creates a tactical advantage.....Did you not read the Admin's post restating the rule that says you can only mess with the CFG file if it doesn't give a tactical advantage...

IMO anybody caught doing this or that can be proven to have done it should be banned from the game for an extended period of time.

Kyle actually specifically said that it was fine.
Also, even if it wasn't, you can't really do anything about it, since unless someone took screenshots of themselves, you can't really know anything about their user.cfg.

#259 Ghogiel

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:05 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 27 January 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:


Personally, I'm expecting a module for "cleaner cockpit glass", all for the nominal price of 15k GXP and 6m C-bills. At this point, it would seem like a classic PGI solution.

Consumable

40k a match

#260 Mister Blastman

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:05 PM

View PostRG Notch, on 30 January 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Not according to PGI. :unsure:


Do I care? :D





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