311 replies to this topic

[DONTOR]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

What exactly makes you think that you can't hit a commando with AC10's?
Because.. uh... you definitely can.

Merely stating that AC10s would take longer to kill a 171kph commando up close, than the LBXs. I have an idea! Since you like to test things ingame we should have a friendly wager. If you kill me faster with 2 AC10 than with 2 LBXs, Ill concede my point that LBX are better at some things.

[TercieI]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

I hope all commandos you fight dont move. When im in mine I dont ever fear 2 X AC10 mechs but Ill get nowhere near a 2LBX mech, your video is pointless. It shows how it takes many shots at the smallest mech in the game at a poor range for that circumstance. If your fighting a comando it wll be in your face, circling you, your Ac10s will do nothing.

Really? In lights (as in all other mechs) I'm DELIGHTED when somebody fires an LBX at me because I know they're wasting 90% of their damage.

Had a classic experience the other night: two dual LBX Jagers on a ridge on Alpine shooting at me at 400M. I'm in my dual 5/dual PPC Firebrand. I see their pellets flying around me, pop up from behind my own ridge, calmly focus in on one's side torso, blow it out, then repeat the process on the other. Result: they're both dead and I have yellow armor on most of my top half. 85% health, no exposed components to "seek crits" on. It's a garbage weapon.

Pinpoint wins. Period.

[DONTOR]

Terciel1976, on 30 January 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Really? In lights (as in all other mechs) I'm DELIGHTED when somebody fires an LBX at me because I know they're wasting 90% of their damage.

Had a classic experience the other night: two dual LBX Jagers on a ridge on Alpine shooting at me at 400M. I'm in my dual 5/dual PPC Firebrand. I see their pellets flying around me, pop up from behind my own ridge, calmly focus in on one's side torso, blow it out, then repeat the process on the other. Result: they're both dead and I have yellow armor on most of my top half. 85% health, no exposed components to "seek crits" on. It's a garbage weapon.

Pinpoint wins. Period.

400M? Ya you wont find me fighting past 200M in my commando. Im a circle of death kind of light pilot, LBXs destroy lights in this scenario. I personally love 2 X Gauss for light hunting, pinpont is great in most cases but not all.

[TercieI]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

400M? Ya you wont find me fighting past 200M in my commando. Im a circle of death kind of light pilot, LBXs destroy lights in this scenario. I personally love 2 X Gauss for light hunting, pinpont is great in most cases but not all.

Me too, for the most part. It was more a comment on the sort of players that seem to like to equip LBXs.

I had two Spiders catch me alone the other day in my Misery. I killed them both. With an AC/20. Within 200M. Good players will hit with pinpoint weapons. I'm way more scared of them than I am of anyone who relies on the LBX to compensate for their lack of aim (or, admittedly, lower spec PC or ping. I am far more effective with rebuilt PC than my old (12 FPS) rig).

Edited by Terciel1976, 30 January 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Like I said, 17 shots to core and kill a stock Catapult from the front at 270m. That isn't good at all.

[Roland]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Merely stating that AC10s would take longer to kill a 171kph commando up close, than the LBXs. I have an idea! Since you like to test things ingame we should have a friendly wager. If you kill me faster with 2 AC10 than with 2 LBXs, Ill concede my point that LBX are better at some things.

I will gladly do this, although I would wait until we have the ability to hold some kind of private match. As it stands, the only way availible to do this is to join on a single team, and then fight each other. Given that you can't target teammates, this ends up giving imprecise weapons like the LBX an unrealistic advantage, since it limits your ability to see exactly where shots are landing, and adjust accordingly.

Based on my experience though, both as a guy who kills lights, and a light pilot, LBX mechs are simply not a threat to me... Honestly, if I see a mech with LBX, and I'm in a light, I would never go close to them. Why would you do this? I'd just stay at range, where their LBX can't do anything at all to my mech.

And when I'm killing lights, I much rather fire large caliber single point damage at them.. because you land one hit and you've crippled the mech.

[DONTOR]

Trauglodyte, on 30 January 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Like I said, 17 shots to core and kill a stock Catapult from the front at 270m. That isn't good at all.

LOL that is funny because i did he exact same test yesterday on forrest colony with 2 LBX at 270M on the catapault and cored it in 8 shots (from 2 LBX). Nothing but the CT had its armor broken through.

[Roland]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

LOL that is funny because i did he exact same test yesterday on forrest colony with 2 LBX at 270M on the catapault and cored it in 8 shots (from 2 LBX). Nothing but the CT had its armor broken through.

8 shots from 2 LBX is 16 shots though, so it's basically the same results right? Plus some slight difference due to the randomness of the spread.

[DONTOR]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

I will gladly do this, although I would wait until we have the ability to hold some kind of private match. As it stands, the only way availible to do this is to join on a single team, and then fight each other. Given that you can't target teammates, this ends up giving imprecise weapons like the LBX an unrealistic advantage, since it limits your ability to see exactly where shots are landing, and adjust accordingly.

Based on my experience though, both as a guy who kills lights, and a light pilot, LBX mechs are simply not a threat to me... Honestly, if I see a mech with LBX, and I'm in a light, I would never go close to them. Why would you do this? I'd just stay at range, where their LBX can't do anything at all to my mech.

And when I'm killing lights, I much rather fire large caliber single point damage at them.. because you land one hit and you've crippled the mech.

Well we could just get on TS and sync drop, not in a party together and hopefully get on opposite teams.
I hear you on large caliber rounds, my Victor with an AC20 cripples lights pretty easily, but I play on 150ish ping, and AC20 rounds dont always register probably 90% or so do. Anyhow I havent had any hit registration problems with the LBX that I have noticed. Although I have heard people say they have problems with both the AC20 and LBX registering.

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

8 shots from 2 LBX is 16 shots though, so it's basically the same results right? Plus some slight difference due to the randomness of the spread.

Ya i get that, I just thought it was funny we did the same test. Although I guess I killed it in half the time.

[Trauglodyte]

I really want the LB to be better. Its a really fun weapon but damn it is hella weak. I watched the video that the guy posted earlier where his 2 LB10x 4 Md Laser K-2 killed the last 4 guys in a PUG Assault. The thing is, he was nearly 100% when he engaged the last four, they were all beat to Hell (two of the five were already cored with only the Awesome being the most stable, though it was stock), and they came in one at a time. The weird shot gun concept just neuters it to no end.

[IceCase88]

The funny thing is you think we are arguing the LBX is superior. We are not making any such argument. We are arguing that it is not nearly as bad and is only slightly below the AC10. LBX is better brawling against moving targets at close ranges. You think brawling is at 270-300 meters which would be typical of metawarriors like yourselves. You may have 60-70% accuracy with the AC10 but in a brawling situation your percentages drop precipitously (probably around 40-50%). You run your "tests" in the training grounds against stationary targets. Great job! Load the LBXs up and do some real in-game testing for once. I am sure your ELO, W/L, KDR, etc. can survive a few bad rounds (10 rounds) while you actually learn to use the weapon. I even think your egos can handle it too. Once you learn to effectively use the tool then the operator will be better for it. I don't think you are brave enough to even try it. You will continue to strap on your PPC/AC combos and play your metawarrior.

The Gauss rifle was not nerfed. A charging mechanic was added and a speed buff was given to it. Elite players such as yourselves should not be effected by a simple firing delay. I do not have a problem with it. Ghost heat was only added multiple AC2s and dual AC20s so ghost heat is not the reason. The AC20 had a recent speed nerf but the move the AC10 had already happened. So if elite players do not have a problem with the gauss recharge why are so many people moving to the AC10, including the elite, when so many regarded it as trash? It was really never trash and those that considered it trash were wrong. Again, you may think it is sub-optimal but others can make it work just fine. It really appears to blow your minds that people can use a tool better than you and that makes me laugh which is why I am still responding in this topic.

By all means, PGI. Please show the LBX some love by upping the damage per pellet. That would be incredible.

[Trauglodyte]

Its funny that you say that about running tests in the TGs vs. in game experience. I tweaked my Phract 3D earlier this morning, while waiting for the ice to melt outside of my condo (damn you Atlanta), and replaced the loadout with 2 PPCs and an LB for poops and giggles. I loaded into an Assault game in Caustic Valley. Of course, I get loaded in with 5 people in Champion mechs of which one asked, "What is Streaks?" Oof! Anyway, the game ended and I had just under 600 damage and we got rolled 12-3. Now, I'm a better than decent jump sniper so I wasn't spreading my PPC shots on legs or arms. It wasn't my best game and I got cored from behind by a super baddy on my team. That said, the LB didn't especially help me. I pulled an Atlas apart and was able to drop the ECM prior to taking off the torso but as I alphaed, it is hard to say whether it was the PPCs or the LB (leaning more towards the PPCs). When I used the LB, I was within 200m so my spread was there but not awful. All of that being said, I'd have been better off dropping the engine a bit more and pulling the LB out for an AC10. I know this through and through because when damage goes to spots where I don't want it, I'm wasting time, effort, and energy while allowing my target to live longer. It is, for the most part, why I dislike SRMs and Streaks (more than normal) and why LRMs other than 5s or 10s with Artemis are a waste. Pinpoint is and will always be the best way to win.



PS> I realize the above is purely anecdotal so take it for what it is.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 30 January 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[DONTOR]

^^ Ill never make a case for single LBXs (unless ina light hunting medium) so your point is quite valid in my opinion, that being said the mechs that can effectivly take 2 are quite limited.

[Sug]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

And when I'm killing lights, I much rather fire large caliber single point damage at them.. because you land one hit and you've crippled the mech.

This really. Yeah it might be easier to get hits with an LBX but it takes time to whittle them down. Meanwhile my ac20 only needs to hit once. Ballistics are pretty much the best counter to lights. Though it ****** me off when one shot goes between a spiders legs and then the next goes between their arm and their torso....

You're killing me with the hit boxes devs. I can't place a shot within 10m of any terrain or structure without it getting blocked and then I get ac20 rounds flying under spiders armpits.

IceCase88, on 30 January 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

By all means, PGI. Please show the LBX some love by upping the damage per pellet. That would be incredible.

I have been hollering for pellets to be brought up to LRMissle damage since cb : /

[DONTOR]

I think I have come to a conclusion, LBXs are sub par weapons, and thats why I love them. When I play any game I go against the grain, using weapons that most people say are garbage and find ways to make them work. A few examples would be C.O.D.M.W3 dragunov instead of the better higher capacity sniper rifle, using a pistol in Halo SWAT mode instead of the Battlerifle, C.O.D.B.O2 I generally used pistols and got 1st place often, and finally instead of the easy mode jenner I chose to make the commado work and thats just how I do things.
LBXs are the underdog weapon, and it isnt optimal. But I make them work and I wouldnt have it any other way.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

LBXs are the underdog weapon, and it isnt optimal. But I make them work and I wouldnt have it any other way.

I would rather the LBX be the beast of the weapon its supposed to be instead of what we have now

[DONTOR]

But then Id have to find other crappy weapons to make work! Some weapons need to be less viable than others.
Is the LBX10 supposed to be a beast? Maybe well have better luck with the Clan LBX10s and 20s

Edited by DONTOR, 30 January 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

But then Id have to find other crappy weapons to make work! Some weapons need to be less viable than others.
Is the LBX10 supposed to be a beast? Maybe well have better luck with the Clan LBX10s and 20s

On paper, Clan LBX10s should technically be no different than IS LBX10s, with slightly different tonnage/crit requirements. There's the off chance that PGI will tweak them (like making the Clan UAC5 jam slightly more than the IS UAC5), but that remains to be seen.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

Right here you are demonstrating your ignorance in being able to assess weapon utility.
The AC10's velocity isn't the only thing that changed. Indeed, that change didn't actually happen until AFTER it started getting used across a variety of mechs. Because, yeah, it was pretty garbage.

So what changed?

The stats of OTHER weapons changed. That's the part which eludes you. Because a weapon is not measured in a vacuum, based purely on its ability to kill mechs... It's measured based upon its ability to kill mechs compared to other weapons.

The AC10 only became used after the gauss rifle was nerfed, because it was previously a poor choice comparatively. Once the gauss was nerfed, then the AC10 became the next best tool for the job, and the job is delivering large precision alpha strikes. And that itself followed a transition to more ballistics in loadouts after ghost heat and PPC nerfs.

In reality, it competed with the (U)AC5, because on certain mechs you could pack two AC5's vs on AC10, and the option was generally superior because the speed matched the PPC's better.

The change you describe, of the AC10 having its speed drop, didn't actually make anyone start using the AC10. Indeed, it basically stopped most folks from using the AC10. Your perception of the meta isn't really in sync with what is happening.

I'm not really explaining this for your benefit, since I suspect you will just wave your hands and bury your head, but rather for the benefit of other folks who actually want to better understand how the weapons in this game work, and how "meta builds" enjoy widespread usage due to actually accomplishing certain things which are empirically advantageous within this game.

pretty much spot on, though I have been using paired ac10s to great effect since Open Beta began. But mostly because I never gave a squirt about Meta, lol. Singularly the Guauss wins, and at range, obviously. But I always have played scrapper/flanker, and the RoF of the ac10 pretty rapidly outsripped the PPC and Gauss (not to mention the heat burden on the PPC). I've even mathematically proven how with every volley the ac10 pretty well outstripped other weapons further. But realistically, only paired, and in the hands of a medium range specialist. For sniping, the Gauss still was king, and for ambush alpha, hard to argue with an ac40, lol. But oddly, the only 3 mechs I ever did consistently well in during 12 man comp drops were my RVN3L, YLW and my dual ac10, twin medium laser 86 kpn Ilya. Should I have done well..... not by common opinion, but I do think the AC10 always got overlooked because it was not as ezmode as the gauss used to be.

[Bishop Steiner]

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

I hope all commandos you fight dont move. When im in mine I dont ever fear 2 X AC10 mechs but Ill get nowhere near a 2LBX mech, your video is pointless. It shows how it takes many shots at the smallest mech in the game at a poor range for that circumstance. If your fighting a comando it wll be in your face, circling you, your Ac10s will do nothing.

you are fighting people used to only shooting big fatties then. I have wrecked many a commando and spider with my ilya. Of course, I freely admit, with 105 rounds of ammo, I probably spam more shots than I should, but low heat pin point damage ftw!

DONTOR, on 30 January 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

400M? Ya you wont find me fighting past 200M in my commando. Im a circle of death kind of light pilot, LBXs destroy lights in this scenario. I personally love 2 X Gauss for light hunting, pinpont is great in most cases but not all.

hey DONTOR don't look now but Icecase88 is hiding under your skirt bro! LOL.

Roland, on 30 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

I will gladly do this, although I would wait until we have the ability to hold some kind of private match. As it stands, the only way availible to do this is to join on a single team, and then fight each other. Given that you can't target teammates, this ends up giving imprecise weapons like the LBX an unrealistic advantage, since it limits your ability to see exactly where shots are landing, and adjust accordingly.

Based on my experience though, both as a guy who kills lights, and a light pilot, LBX mechs are simply not a threat to me... Honestly, if I see a mech with LBX, and I'm in a light, I would never go close to them. Why would you do this? I'd just stay at range, where their LBX can't do anything at all to my mech.

And when I'm killing lights, I much rather fire large caliber single point damage at them.. because you land one hit and you've crippled the mech.

nothing sweeter than landing an ac20 round from my YLW right up the glutes of some lagshielding Pieceofcrap in a Spider or Commando. Watching that insta-disintegration is more enjoyable than killing an Assault Mech from my Mediums (which all too often is too bloody easy, unless they outnumber and focus you.)