311 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

ya mean like this?
http://mwomercs.com/...b-10x-proposal/

Again, I think this picture is the whole point of this thread.

It needs to happen before the LB comes into their own.

[Roland]

No it doesn't.
Just increase the pellet damage.

It'll achieve the same effect, in a way which actually has a chance of being implemented.

Having some kind of dynamically ranged explosion of the shell is never going to happen... or if it does, it means that PGI wasted a massive amount of time on something which could have been trivially achieved with a change to the weapons stats XML.

Seriously. When trying to solve a problem, if there's a solution which has a chance to work but requires virtually zero effort, THEN YOU TRY THAT FIRST. You don't make a crazy complex solution as your FIRST attempt to change it.

[Praehotec8]

Roland, on 03 February 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

No it doesn't.
Just increase the pellet damage.

It'll achieve the same effect, in a way which actually has a chance of being implemented.

Having some kind of dynamically ranged explosion of the shell is never going to happen... or if it does, it means that PGI wasted a massive amount of time on something which could have been trivially achieved with a change to the weapons stats XML.

Seriously. When trying to solve a problem, if there's a solution which has a chance to work but requires virtually zero effort, THEN YOU TRY THAT FIRST. You don't make a crazy complex solution as your FIRST attempt to change it.

This is actually a good point.

[Bishop Steiner]

Praehotec8, on 03 February 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

This is actually a good point.

actually it is pretty small bandaid thinking. It does enhance the LBXs usefulness as a CQB shotgun. Sadly, before MW4, that was never it's role. The LBX has a better range than the standard AC10 and is supposed to be dual purpose, firing a cluster round and solid slug. Obviously solid slug would involve extra coding, and without some serious balancing, would obsolete the ac10 (which the LB series did in TT, hence the introduction of all sorts of specialty ammo to try and balance the horrible oversight)

The range though is another matter. An LBX's effective range was 90 meters more than the ac10, or in MWO translation, 270 meters. The thing is laughable much past 300 meters at current, and even increasing pellet damage doesn't do much to enhance its utility at range. But Roland really likes his MW4 shotties, thus he is satisfied with that as a solution. I Disagree.

[Roland]

Making it a brawling weapon means it fulls a niche that is desperately needed.

Adding a complex new implementation off cluster ammo not only will never actually get implemented, but it won't even make the thing that useful anyway.

[Trauglodyte]

Roland, on 03 February 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

No it doesn't. Just increase the pellet damage. It'll achieve the same effect, in a way which actually has a chance of being implemented. Having some kind of dynamically ranged explosion of the shell is never going to happen... or if it does, it means that PGI wasted a massive amount of time on something which could have been trivially achieved with a change to the weapons stats XML. Seriously. When trying to solve a problem, if there's a solution which has a chance to work but requires virtually zero effort, THEN YOU TRY THAT FIRST. You don't make a crazy complex solution as your FIRST attempt to change it.

I'd actually argue that both changes need to be made. It needs to have the prox fuse added because the spread beyond 200m is too god awful. On top of that, the damage needs to be increase by 20-40% just so that it can overcome its spread nature. In actuality, they could just code the damned thing to be like the old SRM and have it be a single shot that you'd need to land like a normal ballistic but having the 10 damage spread across a set radius. You'd still have the skill needed to land it while having the functionality of the LB's original intent and damage that makes it not completely laughable.

[Kokobutta]

Meh, the LB10x is my preferred ballistic. I have lots of fun and success with it, maintaining better than 2.0kd with most mechs I use it on. Use whatever fits your style and gets your rocks off.

[Phromethius]

Zyllos, on 03 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Again, I think this picture is the whole point of this thread.

It needs to happen before the LB comes into their own.

I was going to find a clip of Elysium where Mat Damon has the altered AK-47 with proximity shells and shoots them in slow motion at the robot Officer. When I saw that I was like, HOLY HELL! thats what the LBX should have been all along! But this picture does the same thing too... Still, the movie clip is a nice piece of special effects.

... found it.. SKIP TO 55 seconds:

Edited by Phromethius, 07 February 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Phromethius, on 07 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I was going to find a clip of Elysium where Mat Damon has the altered AK-47 with proximity shells and shoots them in slow motion at the robot Officer. When I saw that I was like, HOLY HELL! thats what the LBX should have been all along! But this picture does the same thing too... Still, the movie clip is a nice piece of special effects.

... found it.. SKIP TO 55 seconds:

nice demo... daddy likes!!!!!

[Strum Wealh]

Phromethius, on 07 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I was going to find a clip of Elysium where Mat Damon has the altered AK-47 with proximity shells and shoots them in slow motion at the robot Officer. When I saw that I was like, HOLY HELL! thats what the LBX should have been all along! But this picture does the same thing too... Still, the movie clip is a nice piece of special effects.

... found it.. SKIP TO 55 seconds:

BattleTech actually has exactly this weapon, in the form of the "Air-Burst Rifle Munitions" for handheld rifles, described on page 20 of Combat Equipment (which was published back in 2005).

"In an effort to increase the lethality of their infantry against unarmored opposition, the FedSuns military has begun testing a special high-tech version of standard explosive rifle munitions that can be programmed to detonate at specific ranges through a mechanism within the ammo clip itself. These air-burst rounds enable snipers to hit targets hiding right around a corner; however, their expense, limited application, complexity, reduced damage potential, and the limited ammo capacity per magazine (due to the presence of the programming mechanisms) make them all but useless in a fluid battle."

Also, the characteristics/behavior of the ABRMs is described thusly:

"Rifles using air-burst munitions receive only half the rounds per clip (rounded up). Loading a new clip of air-burst munitions into a rifle or programming one for a new range setting counts as a Complex Action, at which time the player must announce to the gamemaster the range at which the player intends to program the munitions to pre-detonate (up to the maximum range of the rifle itself). Up to the announced range, the munitions function like standard explosive ammunition, but they automatically detonate once they reach the programmed distance, causing blast damage based on the firing weapon’s normal damage, but at a reduction of 1 AP and 1 damage die and with only one quarter of the normal blast radius. Note that the explosive charges are unstable, so a fumbled Action Check when programming or firing air-burst munitions destroys the weapon using them."

Combat Equipment also includes (on the same page, no less) the "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canister" for man-portable Gauss weaponry (such as the David Light Gauss Rifle).

• "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canisters (GDPC) are essentially hollowed out Gauss slugs for support-grade, man-portable Gauss weapons, filled with the desired chemical payload and some explosives to crack the shell and disperse it. GDPCs may be impact or time-delay triggered, and the gunner can select which method is used when he discharges the weapon."
  
• "GDPC’s deploy their payload depending on the setting of their fuse. If set to impact, the payload will deploy when the canister strikes an object, be it the target or ground. The proximity setting detonates a split-second before impact. This setting can be pre-programmed, but more commonly the operator manually sets the range before launch, counting the setting time as a Simple Action. This is usually accomplished by setting how many meters away from the weapon the GDPC will detonate."

However, the LB-X ACs in BattleTech do not behave like either of these weapons - their behavior is modeled after that of canister rounds like the 120mm M1028 Canister used by the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank (which "discharges [a] massive blast of fragments at muzzle exit") and the grapeshot from which it is descended (and which also "broke up when the gun was fired, spread out in flight like a shotgun charge, and sprayed the target area")... or like the shotshells that are descended from both & to which the LB-X ACs are often & repeatedly compared by various BattleTech rulebooks and novels.

"In addition to firing the standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-'Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location." - TRO 2750 (the first book in which the LB-X is introduced to the BattleTech universe), pg. 08
(Identical wording is also used in the original Classic BattleTech Master Rules, the Revised CBTMR, and the original TRO 3050.)

"Natasha's laugh survived computer modulation intact. "Of course. Would you prefer that they use a strategy that makes them comfortable or uncomfortable?"
"Point taken. This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe. Once you've softened him up, your lasers ought to cut him to ribbons."
Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"
"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."" - Natasha Kerensky & Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19

"Shunting plasma flow from the fusion engine into his jump jet reaction chambers, Doles guided the Emperor into a ninety-meter spinning flight that landed him directly behind the Marauder. Realizing his error the Periphery warrior tried to turn into the attack, but too late. Lasers flared ruby energy into its already-weakened rear torso and sides, evaporating any remaining armor it might have claimed and then carving deep into internal support structure. The autocannon hammered its shotgun-like ammunition into the breaches, each fragmenting piece ricocheting deeper than the one before in search of critical components." - battle between Colonel Warner Doles' Emperor (firing a LB 10-X) and a Taurian Concordat Marauder, The Killing Fields, chapter 36

"As he ran, Jake saw Petra bring her Stormcrow forward and to the right, closing in on the second Avatar to bring her autocannon into play. Her opponent took a few steps back and launched a double-salvo of LRMs from its shoulders, following it up with a shotgun-like blast from its right-arm autocannon. Her speed made her a difficult enough target that the cannon shot went wide, but her Stormcrow weathered a spread of twenty long-range missiles before she raised her 'Mech's left arm and let rip with the autocannon." - battle between MechWarrior Petra's Ryoken B and a DCMS Avatar Prime firing a LB 10-X, Test of Vengeance, chapter 13

As such, PGI's "shotgun-esque" implementation of the LB-X cluster rounds is in fact "correct" in that it is true to the descriptions and portrayal of the weapon's descriptions & portrayals in the source material, and reimplementing them as proximity- or timer-detonated Shrapnel shells would be antithetical to that the LB-X is supposed to be.

That being said, the LB-X AC in MWO remains an incomplete weapon system so long as it is unable to make use of the "slug" munitions (which were actually explosive shells rather than true slugs (which, by definition, carry no payload/warhead); the "slug" designation was very likely selected to reference shotgun slugs and further emphasize the role of the LB-X as "anti-BattleMech shotgun") that served as its alternate firing mode.

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 12 February 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

BattleTech actually has exactly this weapon, in the form of the "Air-Burst Rifle Munitions" for handheld rifles, described on page 20 of Combat Equipment (which was published back in 2005).

"In an effort to increase the lethality of their infantry against unarmored opposition, the FedSuns military has begun testing a special high-tech version of standard explosive rifle munitions that can be programmed to detonate at specific ranges through a mechanism within the ammo clip itself. These air-burst rounds enable snipers to hit targets hiding right around a corner; however, their expense, limited application, complexity, reduced damage potential, and the limited ammo capacity per magazine (due to the presence of the programming mechanisms) make them all but useless in a fluid battle."

Also, the characteristics/behavior of the ABRMs is described thusly:

"Rifles using air-burst munitions receive only half the rounds per clip (rounded up). Loading a new clip of air-burst munitions into a rifle or programming one for a new range setting counts as a Complex Action, at which time the player must announce to the gamemaster the range at which the player intends to program the munitions to pre-detonate (up to the maximum range of the rifle itself). Up to the announced range, the munitions function like standard explosive ammunition, but they automatically detonate once they reach the programmed distance, causing blast damage based on the firing weapon’s normal damage, but at a reduction of 1 AP and 1 damage die and with only one quarter of the normal blast radius. Note that the explosive charges are unstable, so a fumbled Action Check when programming or firing air-burst munitions destroys the weapon using them."

Combat Equipment also includes (on the same page, no less) the "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canister" for man-portable Gauss weaponry (such as the David Light Gauss Rifle).

• "Gauss-Delivered Payload Canisters (GDPC) are essentially hollowed out Gauss slugs for support-grade, man-portable Gauss weapons, filled with the desired chemical payload and some explosives to crack the shell and disperse it. GDPCs may be impact or time-delay triggered, and the gunner can select which method is used when he discharges the weapon."
  
• "GDPC’s deploy their payload depending on the setting of their fuse. If set to impact, the payload will deploy when the canister strikes an object, be it the target or ground. The proximity setting detonates a split-second before impact. This setting can be pre-programmed, but more commonly the operator manually sets the range before launch, counting the setting time as a Simple Action. This is usually accomplished by setting how many meters away from the weapon the GDPC will detonate."

However, the LB-X ACs in BattleTech do not behave like either of these weapons - their behavior is modeled after that of canister rounds like the 120mm M1028 Canister used by the M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank (which "discharges [a] massive blast of fragments at muzzle exit") and the grapeshot from which it is descended (and which also "broke up when the gun was fired, spread out in flight like a shotgun charge, and sprayed the target area")... or like the shotshells that are descended from both & to which the LB-X ACs are often & repeatedly compared by various BattleTech rulebooks and novels.


"In addition to firing the standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-'Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions. This improves the chance of striking a critical location on the target, but also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it out over the entire target area rather than concentrating it in one location." - TRO 2750 (the first book in which the LB-X is introduced to the BattleTech universe), pg. 08
(Identical wording is also used in the original Classic BattleTech Master Rules, the Revised CBTMR, and the original TRO 3050.)

"Natasha's laugh survived computer modulation intact. "Of course. Would you prefer that they use a strategy that makes them comfortable or uncomfortable?"
"Point taken. This LBX autocannon has Cluster loads."
"Shotgun shells. It'll sand all the armor off a foe. Once you've softened him up, your lasers ought to cut him to ribbons."
Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"
"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."" - Natasha Kerensky & Phelan Kell, Blood Legacy, chapter 19

"Shunting plasma flow from the fusion engine into his jump jet reaction chambers, Doles guided the Emperor into a ninety-meter spinning flight that landed him directly behind the Marauder. Realizing his error the Periphery warrior tried to turn into the attack, but too late. Lasers flared ruby energy into its already-weakened rear torso and sides, evaporating any remaining armor it might have claimed and then carving deep into internal support structure. The autocannon hammered its shotgun-like ammunition into the breaches, each fragmenting piece ricocheting deeper than the one before in search of critical components." - battle between Colonel Warner Doles' Emperor (firing a LB 10-X) and a Taurian Concordat Marauder, The Killing Fields, chapter 36

"As he ran, Jake saw Petra bring her Stormcrow forward and to the right, closing in on the second Avatar to bring her autocannon into play. Her opponent took a few steps back and launched a double-salvo of LRMs from its shoulders, following it up with a shotgun-like blast from its right-arm autocannon. Her speed made her a difficult enough target that the cannon shot went wide, but her Stormcrow weathered a spread of twenty long-range missiles before she raised her 'Mech's left arm and let rip with the autocannon." - battle between MechWarrior Petra's Ryoken B and a DCMS Avatar Prime firing a LB 10-X, Test of Vengeance, chapter 13

As such, PGI's "shotgun-esque" implementation of the LB-X cluster rounds is in fact "correct" in that it is true to the descriptions and portrayal of the weapon's descriptions & portrayals in the source material, and reimplementing them as proximity- or timer-detonated Shrapnel shells would be antithetical to that the LB-X is supposed to be.

That being said, the LB-X AC in MWO remains an incomplete weapon system so long as it is unable to make use of the "slug" munitions (which were actually explosive shells rather than true slugs (which, by definition, carry no payload/warhead); the "slug" designation was very likely selected to reference shotgun slugs and further emphasize the role of the LB-X as "anti-BattleMech shotgun") that served as its alternate firing mode.

pretty sure we know that, but you and I disagree on what is needed to make the LBX actually truly effective. Since we know the slug will not be used, this gives it a hybrid usability giving it some of the advantages and disadvantages of both rounds.

[LastPaladin]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

On 90% of mechs the LB10X is absolute {Scrap}. However one advantage the LB10X does have over the AC10 is that you can mount two of them in the same side torso. So on certain mechs, like the Atlas, which cant take dual AC10s or AC20s, dual LBX10s are still a strong option.

I'd rather just stick an AC20 in that torso instead of 2 LB10Xs, to get more spare tonnage and crit slots. Slower DPS, sure, but with an AC20, does DPS really matter much?