81 replies to this topic

[skamage]

Kasiagora, on 18 June 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

But Steiner tactics would be to have brought 3 Atlases to begin with.

We only field Atlases. There are other mechs?

[Skyefox]

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Another point to be considered in the ongoing discussion: Battlemech rarity. The Inner Sphere wasn't capable of churning these beasts out at will, from what I understand... The factories were limited to producing a small number of Mechs per year and thanks to ComStar, nobody really knew how to improve the production. Correct?

Correct. Because of this, Mechs were also the best unit to bring. Lack of Mechs work both ways. Mechs for you might be uncommon, but what if for your enemy they're rare??

Edited by Skyefox, 30 June 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

skamage, on 30 June 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

We only field Atlases. There are other mechs?

Devastator... Zeus... I think that's about it?

[Uxion]

What are the combat tactics of each of the houses anyways?

From this discussion the Davion sounds as if they rely on mobility while the Steiner likes heavier mechs.

Edited by Steel Bird, 30 June 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[Skyefox]

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Devastator... Zeus... I think that's about it?

Don't forget the original rock em sock em robot.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Banshee

[Bloodweaver]

Steel Bird: I've read that Marik, Liao, and Davion ALL "make more use of combined arms forces than most other Houses." How three out of five Houses can do something more than "most" other Houses, I have no clue. But with Marik it at least makes sense, which is one of the reasons I chose them for my allegiance icon... They have both the territory (raw material) and the naval assets (transportation & logistics) for it.

Steiner is indeed known for a "bigger is better" philosophy, in both Mechs and the weapons carried by them. This is driven by having both a strong economy and a significant number of Mech factories.

Kurita is basically samurais in space. Or, if you prefer, Clan-lite all about honor, codes, etc... They seem to be partial to PPCs and speed.

[Skyefox]

Steel Bird, on 30 June 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

What are the combat tactics of each of the houses anyways?

From this discussion the Davion sounds as if they rely on mobility while the Steiner likes heavier mechs.

This:

Hykelion, on 20 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Davion fights smart. Steiner fights with assaults. Liao fights dirty. Kurita fights with inferior mechs (Dragons? Really?). Marik fights itself.

[Bloodweaver]

Skyefox, on 30 June 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Don't forget the original rock em sock em robot.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Banshee

Banshee's biggest gun is a PPC, that's little more than a spotting laser to a Steiner pilot...

Edited by Bloodweaver, 30 June 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Skyefox]

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Banshee's biggest gun is a PPC, that's little more than a spotting laser to a Steiner pilot...

5S model, circa 3050:
2 ER PPC
1 Gauss Rifle
1 SRM 6
4 Medium Lasers
2 Small Lasers

15 tons of armor, 64.8 kph, 14 double heat sinks

And a MEAN right hook.

If the Banshee shows up in this game, it'd be the only Assault class I'd use till the Clans show up.

Edited by Skyefox, 30 June 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Oh, I'm aware it's got some nice variants But how are you able to tell what one of those is going to be a year from now? And what, pray tell, is this "ER" PPC you speak of? Art thou a witch?

[Skyefox]

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Oh, I'm aware it's got some nice variants But how are you able to tell what one of those is going to be a year from now? And what, pray tell, is this "ER" PPC you speak of? Art thou a witch?

I own all the original Technical Readouts from 2750 to 3067. Everything after those I consider a joke, so didn't purchase.
Extended Range PPCs are available to IS units as of 3050, though the Banshe is a VERY old design, being introduced 2445.

The Mechs that appear in Technical Readout: 3050 are all the Mech introduced up till 3050, barring a few that will show up in Clan units later on.

[Bloodweaver]

My comment was more about the year than the available tech - it's 3049 right now, my insane sorcerer friend!

[Skyefox]

Bloodweaver, on 30 June 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

My comment was more about the year than the available tech - it's 3049 right now, my insane sorcerer friend!

Right. That's why I said the TR introduced Mechs and variants UP TO 3050. ie, the Mauler was made in 3048, yet it appears in TR: 3050.

[Thorgar Wulfson]

LOL you forgot the Stiener scout mech http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

[TyrialRetribution]

i find it interesting that everyone keeps mentioning using small mechs to take out big mechs by getting behind them and hitting their rear armor. it has been my experience that when heavily outweighed, especially if you have a bunch of small buddies outnumbering. rather then going for the back and everyone having to hold their shots till they get into that limited arc, since light mechs tend to carry the smaller faster firing weapons, aim for the legs. this allows everyone to be able to keep up a steady rate of fire no mater when and at what angle they have an opportunity. the legs die quickly in this manner, just as much if not more so then back armor, and once one is taken out you get an even larger advantage allowing you to take out the second faster.

[Skyefox]

Thorgar Wulfson, on 30 June 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

LOL you forgot the Stiener scout mech http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

If I was a Lyran officer stuck in that, I'd prolly whine to my dad till I got an Atlas.

[Balls of Steele]

Hykelion, on 30 June 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Now, using similar thought lines to your post, look at the Cappies. Much smaller number of systems overall than the FedSuns. Tries to build a military capable of matching the much larger power. Now, I'm no expert on the Cappie society and all, but where's the burden falling there?

That's the thing, we *don't* have a military that numerically matches the FedSuns. Now quality, that's a whole defecation-throwing contest right there (which we win cos of Warrior Houses, CCAF martial superiority and the Buddha smiling on us).

Beazle, on 30 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

The point is it's IMPOSSIBLE for any successor state to have a "highly developed logistics infrastructure". Jumpship production around the time of the 4SW was limited to numbers that even your average crackhead could track, while using! To use these jumpships to transport mass quantities of tanks and infantry, with their higher logistics burden makes no sense.

It would be far wiser to leave the tanks and infantry at home to guard the fort, and take every mech you can find to war instead. A 3 to 1 ration for tanks, and 5 to 1 for infantry is clearly not following that concept. I understand that there are only so many mechs around to take, but those ratios don't make sense.

I stand by my conclusion that the RCT as depicted in BT fiction is a literary tool, and nothing more.

I don't disagree on any particular point, I just think the numbers look ok to me. I mean despite the low level of planetary development in the BT 'verse the Successor States have populations reaching into the hundreds of billions. Surely it's possible to scrape together enough resources to adequately supply and transport an RCT?

On that note, has there ever been a reliable resource for jumpship numbers? I think I remember seeing somewhere too that Commercial jumpships have been levied for military use during war. Looking at Sarna, it says there are around 2000-3000 canonically, but the actual number would have to be near the 30,000 mark to adequately transport goods. That's a lot of jumpships.

[Beazle]

Balls of Steele, on 01 July 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

That's the thing, we *don't* have a military that numerically matches the FedSuns. Now quality, that's a whole defecation-throwing contest right there (which we win cos of Warrior Houses, CCAF martial superiority and the Buddha smiling on us).



I don't disagree on any particular point, I just think the numbers look ok to me. I mean despite the low level of planetary development in the BT 'verse the Successor States have populations reaching into the hundreds of billions. Surely it's possible to scrape together enough resources to adequately supply and transport an RCT?

On that note, has there ever been a reliable resource for jumpship numbers? I think I remember seeing somewhere too that Commercial jumpships have been levied for military use during war. Looking at Sarna, it says there are around 2000-3000 canonically, but the actual number would have to be near the 30,000 mark to adequately transport goods. That's a lot of jumpships.

There is no single solid answer for jumpship production. It's another one of those things you'd have to go rooting around a dozen different sourcebooks, reading between the lines and adding things up yourself. Most shipyards produce no more than a dozen or so jumpships per year, (big ones maybe a couple dozen) with each house having only a handful of shipyards.

This is generally barely enough to cover normal replacements due to wear and tear, and accidents. One of the primary tenants of the BT universe is that there ISN'T enough jumpships to "adequately transport goods" which is why the innersphere is in such bad condition.

Yes, commercial jumpships were impressed into service by the Davions during the 4SW (which caused them all sorts of economic troubles).

I've stated all I'm gonna state on this point. If you think the numbers look good, get yourself a copy of any of the source books that cover transportation cost, and build yourself a theoretical RCT (using the published, canonical ratios). Then calculate how much it would cost to transport that RCT, and what it's total BV is. Then see how many mechs you could transport for that same price and what kind of BV you can get for that. Then spend some time google'n food, water, and fuel consumption rates for troops and tanks at war (I'm warning you, it's a BIG project), and look at my previous post covering the numbers of troops in an infantry/armor regiment versus a mech regiment and calculate the difference in cost to transport a 30 day supply of both. (figure any campaign on a planetary scale should take a minimum of a month to land, fight, and get local supply chains set after a fast victory).

If your still a fan of the RCT concept as an invasion force, then nothing I say is going to change that.

[Balls of Steele]

I never said I was a fan of it and there's no need to be condescending. I just don't think it's entirely implausible. Yes you could get the same BV with fewer Mechs, but Mechs are an extremely limited commodity while combat vehicles are less so. In addition, it may cost more food/water/clothes to supply an infantry regiment, but it pales compared to the ammunition, spare parts, armour, consumables and fuel costs for a Mech-equipped force. How can a regiment of machines running on fusion engines possibly cost less to run than vehicles or infantry?

Think about the weight too, the average Mech battalion has hundreds of tons on an equivalent vehicle or infantry formation. That's more mass that needs to be propelled through space and more weight that has to be lifted off from the ground, hence much higher fuel costs for dropships. This is hugely important too, it's why infantry go in first, not tanks, because it costs a bomb in fuel to shift the bloody things. You can argue that it takes the same amount of time to jump from one system to another regardless of cargo, but it's intrasystem travel where fuel and mass comes into play, because vehicles and infantry can be mobilised faster and transported quicker.

You're saying that because jumpships are so rare it is pointless to transport infantry and vehicles instead of the BV equivalent in Mechs, that's a matter of opinion. How long does it take to mobilise a standing formation like an RCT? Could you get the equivalent BV in Mechs, if you could even scrape together that many from the same system?

I don't believe for one second that it costs more logistically to run an infantry battalion than a Mech battalion. A Mech Battalion is around 100 individuals (give or take) while an infantry battalion is around 600 (again give or take). So the infantry formation uses around 6 times the consumables right? Now take into account armour, coolant, ammunition, myomer fibres, spares, training costs for Mechwarriors and technicians vs PBIs etc. There's a reason why running a 21st century Tank Battalion is more logistically intensive than infantry.

Edited by Balls of Steele, 01 July 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Skyefox]

Sigh. Can't even get on to important Davion business like drinking bourbon and talking about the old Academy days without some unaffiliated types and two Houses all up in here just getting sour about tactics. I mean, it's interesting enough, I've said my two words, and at least I'm learning and doing that thing they used to do all the time back in the day....what was it.....oh yeah! Thinking!

Bur I mean REALLY, how are we supposed to take the LC/FS pact for all it's worth (it does have an expiration date), reinforce our Marches to liberate oppressed but somehow happy and content people, and generally plot and scheme on how to do dirty things and still convince the enemy and ourselves we're the good guys??

You guys are just sh*tting in our beds right now. You're up in our kitchen, sipping our Kool-Aid, AND NOT EVEN TELLING US WHAT FLAVOR IT IS!!!!

Eh nevermind. I don't want this discussion to lose steam. I'll just make a new thread called "Super Awesome Fantastic Dynamic Revolutionary Evolutionary Genius Davion Plans for Ultimate Coordinated Fast Assault Domination of Commie Socialist Liberal Anarchist Capitalist Fascist Loser Wusses that aren't Us but have Stuff We Want."