48 replies to this topic

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

You have to boat the hell out of them to make them any good and thats ****** up
it should not be like this... ill make it the more missles you have in the air at one time the less accurate thay become. You can say the targeting computer is getting over loaded. doing this people will stop boating them it will not be worth it and we can buff them back up some. Thank of it as a buff nerf. Maybe more than 2 racks in the air at one time?

I know some chassis were built to boat LRMs like the archer so thy can have quarks to allow a little more missles..

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 30 January 2014 - 03:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Define Boating them? Not everyone has the same definition of boating.

[NextGame]

Heres how I play LRMs. Its generally good for 1-5 kills per game.

10 Steps for relative LRM competence.

1) for LRM 5's & 10's don't bother firing them together unless you have them grouped with bigger launchers

2) Take at least 1.2k missiles for it to be worthwhile.

3) spam further away enemies with chain fire, make them run around. You team will be able to join in the fun as your lrm stream looks like a giant finger of death pointing across the map.

4) only use group fire on enemies that are closer in and you are sure you are going to hit.

5) I'm sure other will disagree, but forget TAG and NARC, they are inferior to taking more missiles or, you know, an actual weapon.

6) Artemis is fine if you have space.

7) Even LRM 5's will get through AMS to an extent if you keep a steady stream.

8) The smaller the launchers you are carrying, the more wasted tester shots you can afford to fire to see if your far off enemies are in cover.

9) Try to engage enemies who are already engaged against your teammates at a closer range. Your LRM's will generally be a secondary concern to them. You are there to support.

10) In a pinch, you can actually use them in 1 on 1 engagements particularly against bad pilots. LRMs are more reliable than srms and are less random than streaks. Just keep your enemies between 200-300m. You will do damage at about 180m & over.

bonus!) prioritise AC Boats -> Assaults -> Heavies/Mediums -> Lights unless you are being engaged.

bonus 2!) Don't bother with LRMS unless you have either 3+ missile slots or alternatively have weird tubes that you can simulate chain fire from with larger launcher sizes like on the CTF-2X

So in conclusion, yes you need to treat them as a primary weapon, and give over a lot of your mechs tonnage to them, if you want to make the most of them that is. But I don't see how that's any different from treating PPC's etc as a primary weapon. Theyre also very limited against ecm heavy groups.

So is this actually another whine thread about being killed by a specific weapon in disguise?

Edited by NextGame, 30 January 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 30 January 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

ill make it the more missles you have in the air at one time the less accurate thay become.

Totally agree, smth I've suggested long ago. When you have like 70-80 missiles in the same small volume of space its really hard for them to avoid each other thus they require more spacing, thus less accuracy.

[wanderer]

LRMs already have less accuracy in larger groups- or rather, more spread.

3 LRM 5's will hit a smaller area than a single LRM 15. Streamed launches cluster better but are more vulnerable to AMS.

And as far as it goes, LRMs are already the slowest-firing, least effective per ton weapon in the game. For the same tonnage, two LRM-15's fire slower than an AC/20, deal less effective damage (between misses and damage spread), and have all the horrid problems of slow velocity, spread, AND devour ammo faster than the AC/20 does while pushing more heat.

Oh,and they have 180m of dead zone where they're nothing more than paperweights. LRMs are opportunity weapons that rely on the opponent's stupidity to be effective right now, which is why they get boated. Low hitrate and often small windows to fire mean that you either put a lot of missiles in the air when you can to get those few effective moments maximized, use them to keep people's heads down and inflict no real damage, or you simply die when random light comes inside your missile window and turns your LRM boat into a funeral pyre.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

Define Boating them? Not everyone has the same definition of boating.

[Sandpit]

I do quite well with 4 LRM5s

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm with you on the speed needing a bit of a boost, But some of what I just read I see as checks an balances.

Smaller Launcher smaller spread... IIC it also was/is slightly hotter as well?

Firing slower than an AC20... I don't care for it, BUT we are loading 15 missiles with both explosive warheads and volatile fuel. Slower seems better to me.

180 Meter dead zone, not a fan, but they are LONG range missiles

Noesis, on 30 January 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Glad I asked cause I was thinking this...

[Prezimonto]

NextGame, on 30 January 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

So in conclusion, yes you need to treat them as a primary weapon, and give over a lot of your mechs tonnage to them, if you want to make the most of them that is. But I don't see how that's any different from treating PPC's etc as a primary weapon. Theyre also very limited against ecm heavy groups.

I agree with your general assessment. When using 40+ to 50+ tubes, your strategy works decently in matches.

The issue is that unlike a PPC (where you can take just one and doing fine with it in conjunction with other weapons), a single LRM5 or 10 is a fairly bad weapon to use individually, and that shouldn't be true, as many mechs are designed around mixed loadouts with an LRM10 as their long range weapon.

[Mechteric]

If LRMs were fire and forget type of lockon, rather than having to maintain lock, then I could see the potential for mixing them in with other weapons as opposed to boating.

But that's not how they are now, and since they require constant attention from lock to fire to splash on target why waste your time with all of that only to have fewer than 20 missiles land?


For LRMs to be effective without the need to boat them (which would also make boating them potentially too good), would be to either increase the velocity of the LRMs a decent amount, or make their lock-ons fire and forget.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 30 January 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 30 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

I do quite well with 4 LRM5s

You'd also do okay with a single LRM20. But your return on damage for the tonnage investment is likely still sub-par compared to pin point-direct fire weapons in most situations.... sort of... if I don't have a better set of hard points, it's an okay compromise, but still not great.

[Joseph Mallan]

Prezimonto, on 30 January 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

I agree with your general assessment. When using 40+ to 50+ tubes, your strategy works decently in matches.

The issue is that unlike a PPC (where you can take just one and doing fine with it in conjunction with other weapons), a single LRM5 or 10 is a fairly bad weapon to use individually, and that shouldn't be true, as many mechs are designed around mixed loadouts with an LRM10 as their long range weapon.

But many Mechs, with a LRM10 each, can unload a lot of hurt if fired on the same target. Its a part of that team work concept that we just don't apply properly.

[Prezimonto]

CapperDeluxe, on 30 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

If LRMs were fire and forget type of lockon, rather than having to maintain lock, then I could see the potential for mixing them in with other weapons as opposed to boating.

But that's not how they are now, and since they require constant attention from lock to fire to splash on target why waste your time with all of that only to have fewer than 20 missiles land?


For LRMs to be effective without the need to boat them (which would also make boating them potentially too good), would be to either increase the velocity of the LRMs a decent amount, or make their lock-ons fire and forget.

Heh, not a bad idea... here's a thought... give them bone targeting if you remove your lock from the mech.... but DON'T use bone targeting if you hold the lock.

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

But many Mechs, with a LRM10 each, can unload a lot of hurt if fired on the same target. Its a part of that team work concept that we just don't apply properly.

Sure, but this game, like it or not, should have viable weapons for individuals. Unlike TT there's not one dude carefully crafting a team comp, and in 12mans that's possible, but not in PUG drops.

I don't disagree at all... if everyone sucked it up and put an LRM10 in, and coordinated fire... they'd be effective in the current state of the game. But there's no good reason for an individual to believe that's going to actually happen.. at which point other weapons are clearly superior for the pug drop and that amount of tonnage.

[Noesis]

Combined AMS will take out a significant number of incoming LRMs. If you don't boat to some extent then you won't really overcome these defenses more so with more chained fire arrangement of missiles.

But of course the game is tuned to the min/maxing for LRMs and if your not boating them don't expect that much viability as a result.

Will be interesting to see what happens when tonnage restrictions come into effect, when in theory things overall get faster (mobility wise) and less tonnage to afford to large arrangements of applied LRM use. Wonder if they end up being more underpowered as a result due to these restrictions. I guess it is all relative?

[Corvus Antaka]

dont bother with lrms. better of with pretty much any other gun.

[Sandpit]

Prezimonto, on 30 January 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

You'd also do okay with a single LRM20. But your return on damage for the tonnage investment is likely still sub-par compared to pin point-direct fire weapons in most situations.... sort of... if I don't have a better set of hard points, it's an okay compromise, but still not great.

Eh, it's all a matter of opinion most times. I think a slight speed boost would help them out a lot and put them into a more useful class when talking about single weapon points.
The thing is I like where stuff like this sits at the moment. It makes you think more about teammates and coordinating and focus fire more. The thing is if you buff them entirely based on the single weapon perspective then when you DO get a team that uses a few dedicated boats with 40+ tubes each working together they'd be a bit too powerful

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 30 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Eh, it's all a matter of opinion most times. I think a slight speed boost would help them out a lot and put them into a more useful class when talking about single weapon points.
The thing is I like where stuff like this sits at the moment. It makes you think more about teammates and coordinating and focus fire more. The thing is if you buff them entirely based on the single weapon perspective then when you DO get a team that uses a few dedicated boats with 40+ tubes each working together they'd be a bit too powerful

As opposed to combined focus fire from direct fire support weapons like AC/PPC we have now?

[Joseph Mallan]

Prezimonto, on 30 January 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Sure, but this game, like it or not, should have viable weapons for individuals. Unlike TT there's not one dude carefully crafting a team comp, and in 12mans that's possible, but not in PUG drops.

I don't disagree at all... if everyone sucked it up and put an LRM10 in, and coordinated fire... they'd be effective in the current state of the game. But there's no good reason for an individual to believe that's going to actually happen.. at which point other weapons are clearly superior for the pug drop and that amount of tonnage.

Problem with that line of thinking is it is a team game that hands the victory to the best team most of the time.

This universe has a history of companies made up of single Mechs. The original 3025 had examples of commands built with all Warhammers or Marauders, We had A Merc Command that was a battalion of Marauders then in 3058 became:

Quote

- 38 of the unit's 48 mechs are Marauder IIs. The remainder are Marauders
. All are equipped with advanced technology and some are armed with Clan weapons.

3,800 tons of Assault Mechs and 10 Heavies(750 tons)!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Sandpit]

Noesis, on 30 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

As opposed to combined focus fire from direct fire support weapons like AC/PPC we have now?

Since this isn't a thread about ballistics I'm ignoring that response. There's plenty of threads to discuss that instead of derailing this one good sir

You and I have both stated our stances on ballistics in numerous threads, no reason to do so again here.

[Noesis]

Sandpit, on 30 January 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Since this isn't a thread about ballistics I'm ignoring that response. There's plenty of threads to discuss that instead of derailing this one good sir

You and I have both stated our stances on ballistics in numerous threads, no reason to do so again here.

It is nothing to do with ballistics per se, its comparing and stating the obvious fact that you missed about the point you were trying to make about combining weapons fire. That being you can easily apply combined weapons fire from other weapon types so why should LRMs be treated any differently in this regard.

Having a hissy fit (god knows why) about posting about ballistics is your prerogative but I made a valid point with respect to the thread, just your logic was/is missing a gear.

And I will happily apply commentary I feel valid to a point unless "moderation" instructs me otherwise.

Edited by Noesis, 30 January 2014 - 11:39 AM.