19 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

The use of an XL engine means death if you loose a torso section. The change i propose embraces PGI's heat capacity concept. Thus if an XL occupies 12 slots, 6CT, 3LT and 3 RT.
and you loose a torso section, heat capacity should be lowered by 25%. so you could lose both sides of an XL and not die, but loose 50% of your engine heat capacity or 8.33% per engine section damaged.

This change makes taking an XL less of a death sentence, so time to kill is increased. Heat would become crippling and might kill the mech outright if its starting heat at the time of damage was high. The Vulnerability of the XL make sense under TT rules not so much under the current system. it makes taking critical hits to the to engine something to worry about not just a death sentence.

[Mechteric]

They'll certainly have to do something like that when the clan mechs arrive since they only have 2 XL crits in each side.


Also you forget that engine critical hits lower your maximum speed as well.

[Jacob Side]

The XL equaling a death sentence for IS mechs makes total sense.
Your gaining the benfit of more tonnage for more powerful weapons & more heat sinks by running an XL.


For Clan mechs having the abiltiy to lose one side torso will help balance the fact that they can't change engine type or rating,heatsink type or armor/internal structure type.

Edited by Jacob Side, 30 January 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[wanderer]

XL's give you the most free tonnage in the game. Fragility is the cost for something that can free up dozens of tons in weight.

They -are- supposed to be a side-torso death sentence for IS 'Mechs, though Clan ones that lose a side merely suffer a big heat penalty- that is, heat equal to what 10 SHS would normally sink.

Later, there's what is called the "Light" engine, which gives IS players a 75% weight (vs Std) engine that's as durable as Clan XL's.

[Khobai]

XL engines are a bit too weak IMO.

In tabletop you cant just fire all your weapons into someones side torso to blow out their XL. So you shouldnt be able to do that in MWO either.

Best way to buff XLs is to get pinpoint damage under control so you cant just blast someone in the XL for 40 damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

You do know that on TT each successive Engine hit cause a constant heat penalty. +5 for one hit, +10 for two an shut down on the third.

[Alcom Isst]

XL engines aren't a hazard if you live, or die any other way than a side torso destruction.

Even when you live because of a STD engine, there are several situations and configurations where a mech won't do much else once it loses a side torso.

Edited by Alcom Isst, 30 January 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Jacob Side]

On The reverse of your 40 point pinpoint damage, to get that you're more then likely running an XL yourself.
There needs to be the trade off of more damage output to the being fragile from the XL.

In any engagement I'm looking at what my enemy has on him. If it's one the Meta pinpointer builds I'm going for the side torso, if not go for the CT.

Edited by Jacob Side, 31 January 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Whatzituyah]

I thought the rule of a clan XL on TT was that 2 parts have to be destroyed before the engine was destroyed and by that I mean either 2 side torsos or 1 side torso and the center torso.

[darkchylde]

Rule has always been 3 crits on an engine dead mech. Which is a death for Innersphere mechs to loose a side torso if they have xl - for clan mechs it hampers them.

Edited by darkchylde, 30 January 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[stjobe]

Whatzituyah, on 30 January 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

I thought the rule of a clan XL on TT was that 2 parts have to be destroyed before the engine was destroyed and by that I mean either 2 side torsos or 1 side torso and the center torso.

That's because a TT engine takes 3 crits to destroy. The IS XL has three crit slots per side torso, the Clan XL only two. So if you want to take a Clan 'mech out without having to destroy the CT you have to destroy both side torsos.

Might be easier to just get those three engine crits in the CT (if you destroy the CT you don't have to bother with the ST, the 'mech is already dead).

Edit: But first, I'd like PGI to make engine crits actually do something other than count to three and kill you. Same for actuators and other currently non-functional internal components. Let's have them do something, affect you negatively when they get destroyed.

Edited by stjobe, 30 January 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Khobai]

please no engine crits in mwo. allowing death by engine crit when you can aim for someones engine is just a terrible idea. do you really want mechs to die even faster?

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 30 January 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

That's because a TT engine takes 3 crits to destroy. The IS XL has three crit slots per side torso, the Clan XL only two. So if you want to take a Clan 'mech out without having to destroy the CT you have to destroy both side torsos.

Might be easier to just get those three engine crits in the CT (if you destroy the CT you don't have to bother with the ST, the 'mech is already dead).

Edit: But first, I'd like PGI to make engine crits actually do something other than count to three and kill you. Same for actuators and other currently non-functional internal components. Let's have them do something, affect you negatively when they get destroyed.

Oh to be able to LIFT my (F)Atlas's arms!

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

please no engine crits in mwo. allowing death by engine crit when you can aim for someones engine is just a terrible idea. do you really want mechs to die even faster?

Er, what?

What would change, exactly, in your mind if we had proper engine crits in MWO?

Currently your XL-equipped 'mech dies when the ST is destroyed; which is in effect the same as getting three engine crits.

[darkchylde]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

please no engine crits in mwo. allowing death by engine crit when you can aim for someones engine is just a terrible idea. do you really want mechs to die even faster?

The mechanic would cause heat buildup if the engine takes a crit before all the internals are gone which is already not difficult to do because of pin point convergence. However, this would mostly affect energy builds more than ballistic builds which are already avoided due to the poor heat system in this game.

[Lykaon]

Jacob Side, on 30 January 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

On The reverse of your 40 point pinpoint damage, to get that your more then likely running an XL yourself.
There needs to be the trade off of more damage output to the being fragile from the XL.

In any engagement I'm looking at what my enemy has on him. If it's one the Meta pinpointer builds I'm going for the side torso, if not go for the CT.

How so?

225 std engine 2 AC20s on any Jagermech chassis

300 std engine AC20 2x PPC on a Misery or Highlander 733c with jets as well.

325 std engine Atlas AC20 2x PPC.

I have used all of these to great effect.

I personally go for twin AC5s over an AC20 so my alpha strikes are for 30 with more 10 point hits interspersed during a cooling cycle.I prefer it's enhanced brawling range potential.

Not that aiming at a side torso isn't a decent plan any how. Highlander 733cs have everything on the right side,the Atlas get's its firepower quartered with a RT destruction My Misery has it's damaged halved if you sack the AC 20.

[Asmudius Heng]

I gotta say that the tonnage saved by the XL is worth it for the fragility for quite a lot of my mechs. It is a calculated risk as it allows a LOT more effective firepower on many chassis.

I kinda think it is working as intended, though the viability of XL engines is definitly lower the higher tonnage you have but I think thats just something we are going to have to live with in a real time environment.

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

please no engine crits in mwo. allowing death by engine crit when you can aim for someones engine is just a terrible idea. do you really want mechs to die even faster?

This is why you also add in buffs to the standard engine/structure/armor/heat sinks in the form of bonus internal HP.

Now all the upgrades are a choice... defense or offense.

[Khobai]

Quote

What would change, exactly, in your mind if we had proper engine crits in MWO?

Currently your XL-equipped 'mech dies when the ST is destroyed; which is in effect the same as getting three engine crits.

What would change is that your mech could be destroyed without the internal structure being destroyed. It would reduce time to kill.

Quote

The mechanic would cause heat buildup if the engine takes a crit

Heat generation is already three times higher than tabletop. We dont need even more heat. Why would you even suggest that?

[Tombstoner]

It exchanges instant death with a some what longer more drawn out death for crippling heat.
It would create opportunities for mech to just barely survive an exchange that other wise would kill them and limp back into cover missing a torso and arm.

The mechanic makes sense in a distributive damage system used in TT not in a skill based system. thus the instant death result is too harsh. basically for more tonnage and not using an xl you move slower but never suffer from engine heat damage. the three engine hit TT rule needs to go and in its place put reduced heat capacity. tha would be crippling in its own right if not manages correctly

over all its a buff for all classes particularly for brawlers who rely on the extra speed provided via the xl but would no longer suffer its debilitating weakness. the same would go for light mechs. the buff for them may be a bit too much.