172 replies to this topic

[BillyM]

Shoot the smoke canister from the mech in a large arc, smoking as it goes. Make dropping smoke a skillful action vs "point-cursor, press button, magic smoke". This would also promote sneaky light backdoor smoke dropping vs poptart clicked 1m behind you.

--billyM

[Jman5]

BillyM, on 30 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Shoot the smoke canister from the mech in a large arc, smoking as it goes. Make dropping smoke a skillful action vs "point-cursor, press button, magic smoke". This would also promote sneaky light backdoor smoke dropping vs poptart clicked 1m behind you.

--billyM

That's a neat idea.

[Deathlike]

BillyM, on 30 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Shoot the smoke canister from the mech in a large arc, smoking as it goes. Make dropping smoke a skillful action vs "point-cursor, press button, magic smoke". This would also promote sneaky light backdoor smoke dropping vs poptart clicked 1m behind you.

--billyM

I'm still trying to figure out how the smoke "magically" appears in this game. Space magic seems too all encompassing.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 30 January 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

The fix for this is to make sure people have correct information so they know what happened rather than just remove the mechanic. Add kill cams, make artillery strikes more pronounced, or add a more detailed accurate death summary.

They have yet to fix the Gauss Rifle explosion message. Take that for what it's worth.

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The AWP was limited or banned on personally run servers by people that didn't want to deal with it. If you want to make a custom game here(assuming they ever allow that) with your own set of rules for your peace of mind that is fine, but I for one am perfectly fine with having all of the tools available to me and my enemies. This kind of reminds me of all of those games where people would complain that I couldn't beat them if I didn't use *insert random thing* to which my response was if you can't beat me without putting restrictions on me then you can't beat me.

It doesn't sound like you've ever participated in a league that has no restrictions. These things start to matter. If the mechanism overall was better balanced, I really wouldn't be complaining. I've gotten use to it, but I feel bad for the occasional freebie kill because of its existence. Meta compliance is not always fun.

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If you are worried about player retention for the game there are a lot more pressing matters to deal with before this should even be considered.

Well, that's a given, but it's not helping either.

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I have a hard time thinking of this as a random insta-gib mechanic. This is a targeted attack that people can move away from if they are paying attention, but when they are not it can have consequences. To your earlier statement about the new player getting killed by artillery from a head shot and not knowing what happened is that really any different than a wounded new player walking around a corner and getting killed by any stray attack that they didn't see coming?

My sole and only problem is that if I take damage to the head (which has happened many times, but still rarely headshotting me), that I have zero means of preventing it (aka, no matter how much head armor I put on, I'm dead). Taking damage to cripple me (as in, massive damage to the legs/torsos/arms), I'm fine with. When I have no idea or no means of preventing the headshot, well, that's not exactly enjoyable. Sure, someone could alpha me in the head. I can deal with that begrudgingly.. at least it part of it was my fault. Remember, this game doesn't do respawning, so the mechanism is very unforgiving unlike games involving respawn.

People made the faulty assumption that it is preventable... if it is launched BEHIND me, how am I supposed to know of its existence... especially given the airstrike has a pretty fair radius it covers? Not every launched airstrike/arty is avoidable, so it's kinda silly to suggest that in the "more often than not" case where I can avoid it. It doesn't mean that I should start using a light... contrary to popular belief, I still take my fair share of damage while being in a light, while I have had very minimal time to react. Not all good launches of either module are created equal.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[3rdworld]

I was thinking about having the damage "Ramp" based on time no arty is used.

For instance it starts at 15-20 dmg per shell, then after 1min on no Arty strikes it is back up to the full 40 dmg per shell. Give a reason to not just spam the {Scrap} out of it, while still being dangerous when used correctly.

[Deathlike]

3rdworld, on 30 January 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

I was thinking about having the damage "Ramp" based on time no arty is used.

For instance it starts at 15-20 dmg per shell, then after 1min on no Arty strikes it is back up to the full 40 dmg per shell. Give a reason to not just spam the {Scrap} out of it, while still being dangerous when used correctly.

That doesn't sound too bad, but you would need to color the indicators of the "damage" level of the airstrike/arty to consider timing of them (or put a number there, I dunno)

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Khobai]

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I was thinking about having the damage "Ramp" based on time no arty is used.

For instance it starts at 15-20 dmg per shell, then after 1min on no Arty strikes it is back up to the full 40 dmg per shell. Give a reason to not just spam the {Scrap} out of it, while still being dangerous when used correctly.

ghost artillery!

[WKMitchell]

Dang I hate these forum software. I quoted Billy M and yet it didn't appear.

Billy M's is probably the best solution it will still make Lights nasty as they can get behind you and still do a lot of damage with the strikes while preventing the poptarts or any thing in front of you from getting easy free damage but putting it just behind there target.

Deathlike. Other then my atlases(which I barely ever play) none of my mechs are slower then 70kph with speed tweak that is fast enough to get away from arty and air strikes if you can see the smoke or be right near the edge of the strike minimizing damage taken.

Edited by WKMitchell, 30 January 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Khobai]

what if artillery and airstrikes were mutually exclusive and equipping both at the same time was impossible UNLESS you have a command console. the command console could also give you an extra module slot that could only be used for consumables. Also a 15-20 second global cooldown. That would eliminate some of the spammability and give the command console a use.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

what if artillery and airstrikes were mutually exclusive and equipping both at the same time was impossible UNLESS you have a command console. the command console could also give you an extra module slot that could only be used for consumables. Also a 15-20 second global cooldown. That would eliminate some of the spammability and give the command console a use.

At this point, I'm convinced the Command Console will continue to be the long running 3 ton doorstop joke in MWO for 2014 and beyond.

[BillyM]

BillyM, on 30 January 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Shoot the smoke canister from the mech in a large arc, smoking as it goes. Make dropping smoke a skillful action vs "point-cursor, press button, magic smoke". This would also promote sneaky light backdoor smoke dropping vs poptart clicked 1m behind you.

--billyM

...follow-up, the canister coming in at an angle could slide/bounce slightly along the ground when it hits depending on how far you tossed it, kicking up some dust and maybe a soft "tink tink tink" sound as it goes. Now, if a light sneaks up 50m behind you and tosses it 45m, he earned that, no noise no bounce, but from 400m+ that needs to be tough!

--billyM

[DEMAX51]

I don't really see this as a huge problem in the game (I think I've been headshot by a strike twice? Both in my Jenner), but if they decided to reduce arty/air damage per shell to 30 and up the number of shells, I wouldn't have a problem with that - headshots would still be possible on those who do not max out their head armor, but it wouldn't be an instant-kill.

If they change it or not, I'm fine with it.

[Deathlike]

DEMAX51, on 30 January 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I don't really see this as a huge problem in the game (I think I've been headshot by a strike twice? Both in my Jenner), but if they decided to reduce arty/air damage per shell to 30 and up the number of shells, I wouldn't have a problem with that - headshots would still be possible on those who do not max out their head armor, but it wouldn't be an instant-kill.

That's not completely unreasonable, and that's what those of us have been essentially asking for.

[Roadkill]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

RNG instant death has no place in this game.

You mean like ammo explosions?

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

They have yet to fix the Gauss Rifle explosion message. Take that for what it's worth.

Agreed, the devs are lacking when it comes to getting certain things done, but I don't see why we shouldn't be pushing them to do better as opposed to having them fix things in a roundabout way.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

It doesn't sound like you've ever participated in a league that has no restrictions. These things start to matter. If the mechanism overall was better balanced, I really wouldn't be complaining. I've gotten use to it, but I feel bad for the occasional freebie kill because of its existence. Meta compliance is not always fun.

I haven't participated in any leagues for this game, but I have in many others and I much preferred the ones that had no arbitrary restrictions. As for making artillery/airstrikes overall better balanced I have no problem talking about things like tweaking the cool downs or adding things like arced smoke trails from the mech to the target location, but where I take issue is trying to remove headshots just because someone thinks it feels bad.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

My sole and only problem is that if I take damage to the head (which has happened many times, but still rarely headshotting me), that I have zero means of preventing it (aka, no matter how much head armor I put on, I'm dead). Taking damage to cripple me (as in, massive damage to the legs/torsos/arms), I'm fine with. When I have no idea or no means of preventing the headshot, well, that's not exactly enjoyable. Sure, someone could alpha me in the head. I can deal with that begrudgingly.. at least it part of it was my fault. Remember, this game doesn't do respawning, so the mechanism is very unforgiving unlike games involving respawn.

If they gave better indicators that something was incoming would that be enough to satisfy you? I'm just curious because with better indicators you might have the means to prevent that damage you are worried about without taking away the punishment that can be rained down on a group of mechs that thought they found a nice place to camp.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

People made the faulty assumption that it is preventable... if it is launched BEHIND me, how am I supposed to know of its existence... especially given the airstrike has a pretty fair radius it covers? Not every launched airstrike/arty is avoidable, so it's kinda silly to suggest that in the "more often than not" case where I can avoid it. It doesn't mean that I should start using a light... contrary to popular belief, I still take my fair share of damage while being in a light, while I have had very minimal time to react. Not all good launches of either module are created equal.

Well if it is launched behind you this goes with having better indicators like the smoke arc that BillyM mentioned being a possible solution to giving you a chance to react without taking some of the potential potency away from the strikes.

[Roadkill]

Bhael Fire, on 30 January 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Not only have I never been head-shot by an arty strike, I've yet to be killed at all by one...let alone be damaged more than to the yellow-orange range....and that was because I hadn't noticed the red plume in time. In other words, it was MY fault.

+1

Never been killed by arty or airstrike. Rarely ever hit by one, and when I'm hit I'm never damaged beyond yellow or maybe yellow-orange.

[Deathlike]

Roadkill, on 30 January 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

You mean like ammo explosions?

Sure, but that's a different discussion for a different thread (which spawns on its own like rabbits or something).

WarHippy, on 30 January 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

I haven't participated in any leagues for this game, but I have in many others and I much preferred the ones that had no arbitrary restrictions. As for making artillery/airstrikes overall better balanced I have no problem talking about things like tweaking the cool downs or adding things like arced smoke trails from the mech to the target location, but where I take issue is trying to remove headshots just because someone thinks it feels bad.

I never said "it can't hit the head". I'm saying "it can't be an immediate death" because someone got really lucky to get a direct hit to the head.

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If they gave better indicators that something was incoming would that be enough to satisfy you? I'm just curious because with better indicators you might have the means to prevent that damage you are worried about without taking away the punishment that can be rained down on a group of mechs that thought they found a nice place to camp.

No, because the mechanic itself (the smoke rising from the targeted location) is technically already 2-3 seconds too late, since it is already in the midst of the launching process which is followed by the bombing of said location 2-3 seconds later. Unless the indicator was on the minimap IMMEDIATELY after the launch, perhaps you might have something there. Right now, the smoke is a "too late" indicator by definition (really, just time it, and you'd be surprised).

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Well if it is launched behind you this goes with having better indicators like the smoke arc that BillyM mentioned being a possible solution to giving you a chance to react without taking some of the potential potency away from the strikes.

At least with the smoke arc, you can at least figure out where you need to go, because you expect the bombing to promptly happen after the canister or whatever settles (or not) at its final/intended destination (with whatever the delay happens to be). I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure it'll suck if the thing bounces off your mech, but it's a far more acceptable solution.

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

I never said "it can't hit the head". I'm saying "it can't be an immediate death" because someone got really lucky to get a direct hit to the head.

Where do you draw the line? Does it ever kill you when you get hit there with artillery, or only after getting hit several times? Lucky shots happen I just don't see the point in worrying over it.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

No, because the mechanic itself (the smoke rising from the targeted location) is technically already 2-3 seconds too late, since it is already in the midst of the launching process which is followed by the bombing of said location 2-3 seconds later. Unless the indicator was on the minimap IMMEDIATELY after the launch, perhaps you might have something there. Right now, the smoke is a "too late" indicator by definition (really, just time it, and you'd be surprised).

I don't know I have never had problems getting out of the way or at least only getting lightly damaged when I see the smoke plume, and I pilot primarily assault mechs. Having an indicator on the minimap might be a solution if done right, but I don't want to push the warnings to such an extreme that only the most oblivious person wouldn't know to move.

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

At least with the smoke arc, you can at least figure out where you need to go, because you expect the bombing to promptly happen after the canister or whatever settles (or not) at its final/intended destination (with whatever the delay happens to be). I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure it'll suck if the thing bounces off your mech, but it's a far more acceptable solution.

I agree, and I think this would make for more interesting game play.

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Sure, but that's a different discussion for a different thread (which spawns on its own like rabbits or something).

Why?

Why is a random death by headshot to arty or airstrike any different than a random death to an ammo explosion or Gauss Rifle explosion? Or, for that matter, all of the random critical hits that occur in the game?

There's a ton of randomness in the game. It's not new with artillery and airstrikes. Even headshot deaths to direct fire are more randomness than anything else. I get headshot kills somewhat regularly, but I'm never actually aiming for the head when it happens. It just happens now and then.

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 30 January 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Where do you draw the line? Does it ever kill you when you get hit there with artillery, or only after getting hit several times? Lucky shots happen I just don't see the point in worrying over it.

When it's a direct hit to the head, it's gg close. Most of the time, it's of the "legs and torso" variety, which I'm fine with. I have been on the receiving end just as much as on the giving end. Yes, it's rare, but not something I look forward to. It's only worse with other mech cockpits which increase the chances of it (which is another related problem).

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I don't know I have never had problems getting out of the way or at least only getting lightly damaged when I see the smoke plume, and I pilot primarily assault mechs. Having an indicator on the minimap might be a solution if done right, but I don't want to push the warnings to such an extreme that only the most oblivious person wouldn't know to move.

I don't know how an IMMEDIATE audio cue by Betty FOLLOWED by an indicator on the minimap for the anticipated location is not foolproof.

Roadkill, on 30 January 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

Why?

Why is a random death by headshot to arty or airstrike any different than a random death to an ammo explosion or Gauss Rifle explosion? Or, for that matter, all of the random critical hits that occur in the game?

There's a ton of randomness in the game. It's not new with artillery and airstrikes. Even headshot deaths to direct fire are more randomness than anything else. I get headshot kills somewhat regularly, but I'm never actually aiming for the head when it happens. It just happens now and then.

Personally, the ammo explosion mechanic should be reworked to be crippling, but not immediate death. The most memorable stuff regarding that was actually MW2, where heat penalties would cook ammo, causing damage to the system (not fatal, but horrible enough to pay attention to).

Headshot deaths (through non-airstrike/arty hits) are different in the sense that sometimes you are the recipient of the "don't overheat while brawling award"... where those are the scenarios where you are supposed to pay for overheating (your head doesn't move, making it an easy shot - you deserve it).

Remember that you get only 33 max armor for the head (18 external, 15 internal), which is the equivalent of taking a little more than 2 Gauss Rifles or 3 PPCs (2 PPCs, 1 AC10) to the head. You actually have control over the armor you put on your mech. You also have control over heat (rather, specifically, when to fire your mech). With the airstrike/arty, you have zero control over where it hits outside of realizing it's happening at the moment it was launched. I have still died to ammo explosions to the head before (putting ammo in the head is a risk, even though the risk is generally minimal), but I put the ammo there and once you get rid of the external armor (usually some sort of 20+ point alpha), I'm simply gambling that the 10% explosion probability won't affect me. Well, that's my fault when it still goes off.

Arties and airstrikes... it's not the same.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2014 - 03:04 PM.