37 replies to this topic

[Turist0AT]

Alpha = you can torso twist
DPS = you cant torso twist

How do you wana die?

[Kubernetes]

Alpha definitely seems to rule at the moment, although high-dps ballistic builds can still do tremendous work in the right circumstances. When it breaks down into a skirmish line, I tend to target Jagers, Phracts, and K2s first, because I know firsthand what kind of damage they can do if left unmolested.

[Slepnir]

Roland, on 31 January 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Which is never.


I suspect a lot of those pilots are just terrible. Those kinds of builds attract a lot of terrible players, because they see good players using them, and think that the mech will make them win.


You're AVERAGING 4 kills with it? What are your stats with this mech, if you don't mind me asking? Averaging 4 kills would put you at a K/D of at least 6, most likely. I'm skeptical that you are achieving that with a DPS build.

Although I'm not sure what exactly you consider a DPS build, as you didn't post it up. What are you running? If it's something like 4 AC5's, I'd consider that an alpha build, just one that happens to crank out a decent alpha very quickly.

Jagger DD nearly max armor AC5 (ammo 4 tons) AC2 (ammo 4 tons), X4 machineguns (ammo 2 tons), ferro/endo/double HSs standard 295 engine. I have no clue what my K/D is because I really don't care. as long as or team wins by any means neccissary......... how many screen caps of end game performace do you want? I have like 40 that are all about the same as these-...................................................................and sometimes I even surprise myself when I see damage totals like these-...

[Slepnir]

Its really a lot about using the terrain, and choosing your battles...with a little bit of luck thrown in. in a 1v1 battle where nobody else steps in to help my target I win the brawl 9 out of 10 times.

[levitas]

I don't believe that you average 4 kills per match.

You have to understand, you made a claim of "an AC20 every second under 200m", and the build you posted has a max possible DPS of 11, and max sustained DPS of 10. Also, that's only within 120m, you lose almost 2.7 of your 11 DPS due to range at 200m, putting your max DPS at 200m at 8.3.

I have no problem believing that you do well in that build, and have had many great games like the ones you posted. I feel the same way about my Misery. However your claims are out of line reality in any way that we can confirm, so a bit of skepticism (really not meant personally at all!) may still be in order.

Edited by solar levitas, 01 February 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[hercules1981]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

It's most heavily determined by the range of engagement. Long range builds need alpha to exploit snap shots and get damage in during the small windows they have a shot. DPS is more important to short range mechs, as it's hard to disengage once you're in the fight, so you need to burn down the other guy faster than he burns you.

Now I completely see this in the opposite way as u. High alpha in close range because it is easier for the enemy to core u so u want to be facing them the absolute least amount of time, and when u do shoot damage them as much as possible then look away. Then have dps for long range so u can just constantly fire at someone until u feel like stoping having lots of ac 2s or 5s or uacs r basically gonna be the highest dps in the game,and have the longest range (besides GR) most weapons that may hit u at very long range will have dropped off in damage anyway so unless u r trading shots with another ac2, 5 or uac guy u can just shoot like crazy and out dps them all day from max range.

[Roland]

Slepnir, on 31 January 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

Jagger DD nearly max armor AC5 (ammo 4 tons) AC2 (ammo 4 tons), X4 machineguns (ammo 2 tons), ferro/endo/double HSs standard 295 engine. I have no clue what my K/D is because I really don't care. as long as or team wins by any means neccissary......... how many screen caps of end game performace do you want? I have like 40 that are all about the same as these-

Screen captures don't really mean much, especially since the fact that you took a screenshot would suggest that the performance is well beyond what you normally experience.

You can easily check the K/D in your mech, just go to your mech stats. That'll give a better idea of what you are doing consistently with it.

After seeing your description of the build, I cannot believe you are averaging 4 kills a game as you first suggested. It seems like that was an exaggeration on your part. But hey, if your stats really show a 6.0 K/D ratio in that chassis, then I stand corrected.

[Lukoi Banacek]

If you value accuracy, alpha is the way to go, regardless of range. DPS is FUN....but not optimal for most pilots. In competitive drops, regardless of range, the goal is to knock targets out of the fight as quickly as possible, and putting alpha damage into the right spot precisely pays more dividends than DPS every time.

But I do enjoy the hell out of DPS

[Lukoi Banacek]

Roland, on 01 February 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

After seeing your description of the build, I cannot believe you are averaging 4 kills a game as you first suggested. It seems like that was an exaggeration on your part. But hey, if your stats really show a 6.0 K/D ratio in that chassis, then I stand corrected.

It's always funny to me. People claim to average 400+ per match in damage in their Mechs, these great KDR's, etc....the fact is when you factor in bad matches/bad beats, the occasional disco that leaves your mech ingame to die, cap and resource losses, MOST people do not do nearly as well in Mechs as they espouse on these forums...it's a perception issue. They feel really strong in a mech. Honestly, you've got to look at your stats, have a large enough sample size to really call it a good trend, as opposed to a mere hot streak, before you should go bragging about it imo.

FFS I'm an average to above average pilot and I've got a 34:1 KDR in a Hunchback....that's NOT a reliable measure of anything. It was a fantastic lucky streak that I keep as a reminder to people not to over-value stats...you gotta put em in context...and more importantly, be objective about you are looking at.

[Slepnir]

Lukoi, on 01 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

It's always funny to me. People claim to average 400+ per match in damage in their Mechs, these great KDR's, etc....the fact is when you factor in bad matches/bad beats, the occasional disco that leaves your mech ingame to die, cap and resource losses, MOST people do not do nearly as well in Mechs as they espouse on these forums...it's a perception issue. They feel really strong in a mech. Honestly, you've got to look at your stats, have a large enough sample size to really call it a good trend, as opposed to a mere hot streak, before you should go bragging about it imo.

FFS I'm an average to above average pilot and I've got a 34:1 KDR in a Hunchback....that's NOT a reliable measure of anything. It was a fantastic lucky streak that I keep as a reminder to people not to over-value stats...you gotta put em in context...and more importantly, be objective about you are looking at.

We all have bad matches, iv'e walked into things in my jagger and had no hope of surviving(usually shot in the back while I am brawling) but I screen cap almost every game and the jagg is consistant in damage, kills and survivability not just some streak. I just left a match we won where I spent most of the match long ranged sniping only jumping in in the last couple minutes to brawl. didn't get any kills this round but I got a bunch of assists and nearly 400 damage.....which is low end for what it usually does.

[Victor Morson]

95% of the time, alpha damage. Definitely, no question.

Up front damage lets you fire & evade. Up front damage lets you deliver painful hits in mere 1-2 second windows. Up front (or burst - i.e. UAC/5) damage lets you smash your opponent and then turn your strong armor to them immediately.

DPS damage has a place; the ER Large Raven is a good example of a DPS 'mech that is constantly pouring on fire, shot after shot, for extended periods. But it's important to note this can kind of "alpha damage" as well.

AC/2s and MGs are the worst examples of DPS. Both require you to remain on-target, meaning your weak spots will both be exposed - and not moving much. It's why these weapons only produce acceptable results in low-skill games; the minute you fight people who don't ignore you, they will take advantage of your "locked on target" torso and rip you an absolute new one.

EDIT: Stats are kind of hilarious though. Apparently I've fired 251,705 LRM/15s.

Edited by Victor Morson, 02 February 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Roland, on 01 February 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

Screen captures don't really mean much, especially since the fact that you took a screenshot would suggest that the performance is well beyond what you normally experience.

You can easily check the K/D in your mech, just go to your mech stats. That'll give a better idea of what you are doing consistently with it.

As a side note, this isn't too reliable for other reasons too. I have at least 20-30 suicides on my more popular 'mechs due to league misdrops and mulligens - at least; also some 'mechs like the 733C which were previously horribly subpar I'm still climbing out of the hole with given they are now very awesome.

So my stats are all kinds of jacked and I bet that goes for many players as well.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Slepnir, on 02 February 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

We all have bad matches, iv'e walked into things in my jagger and had no hope of surviving(usually shot in the back while I am brawling) but I screen cap almost every game and the jagg is consistant in damage, kills and survivability not just some streak. I just left a match we won where I spent most of the match long ranged sniping only jumping in in the last couple minutes to brawl. didn't get any kills this round but I got a bunch of assists and nearly 400 damage.....which is low end for what it usually does.

Sure thing. You can show us a screencap but not the mech's stats? That is a telling and consistent statistic in and of itself

[Escef]

Slepnir, on 02 February 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

A bunch of stuff that doesn't mean dookie.

You are on the official site as you read this. Look to your upper right. Click on Profile. Just below the MWO logo on this screen is a row of options, click Stats. You will start off in the Base Stats section, click on Mech Stats. Find your Jagermech's stats, screen cap that and post it if you want people to take your claims seriously.

[Bagheera]

Victor Morson, on 02 February 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

As a side note, this isn't too reliable for other reasons too. I have at least 20-30 suicides on my more popular 'mechs due to league misdrops and mulligens - at least; also some 'mechs like the 733C which were previously horribly subpar I'm still climbing out of the hole with given they are now very awesome.

So my stats are all kinds of jacked and I bet that goes for many players as well.

And many of my mechs were mastered before stats were tracked. And that my overall W:L ratio is different than the average of my individual map w/l ratios. What I mean is that if you look at the overall W:L count on the main stats page (since it's not expressed as a ratio) it is high number of games than the total counted on the individual map stats page.

Stats here are ... vague ... and seem to not be all counted from the same starting point in time.

Edited by Bagheera, 02 February 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bagheera, on 02 February 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

And many of my mechs were mastered before stats were tracked. And that my overall W:L ratio is different than the average of my individual map w/l ratios. What I mean is that if you look at the overall W:L count on the main stats page (since it's not expressed as a ratio) it is high number of games than the total counted on the individual map stats page.

Stats here are ... vague ... and seem to not be all counted from the same starting point in time.

All true which is why you have to put stats into context and be as objective as possible if they are to be of any use to you.

[Slepnir]

Quote

AC/2s and MGs are the worst examples of DPS. Both require you to remain on-target, meaning your weak spots will both be exposed - and not moving much.

LOL not moving much, your joking right? the only way it works is if your constantly moving while keeping guns on target. I am constantly circling whaterver I am trying to kill, secondly what I think people are forgetting is that on top of the straight DPS damage the 4 MGs crit seek like a champ.

Quote

Sure thing. You can show us a screencap but not the mech's stats? That is a telling and consistent statistic in and of itself

given thats it is not going to be accurate as I have run the mech since it came out and most of that time with other builds until I made this one by accident. i'd need a reset and a fresh stat start again.

Quote

JAGERMECH JM6-DD /1,196/ 640/ 553/ 1.16/ 921/ 738/ 1.25/ 299,795/ 842,927/ 4 days 14:23:05

Edited by Slepnir, 02 February 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[Escef]

Slepnir, on 02 February 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

given thats it is not going to be accurate as I have run the mech since it came out and most of that time with other builds until I made this one by accident. i'd need a reset and a fresh stat start again.

That's a pretty crappy excuse for claiming a KDR of around 4 and actually having a 1.25.