62 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Nah. They generate too much heat now. Weapons generate so much heat mechs like the battlemaster cant even use all their energy hardpoints.

The solution is to lower heat but also lower damage. So you can use all your hardpoints then without it being OP.

I use all my hardpoints on my battlemaster? Runs a touch hot but otherwise quite nicely. That said learning to NOT use all of your hardpoints in this game is often a learned methodology that seperates good players form the bad one. I dont think you should make it so that you just always use everything. Heat is in a good place. It forces you to manage it and slows down the game so its not just run and gun.

[Khobai]

Quote

I use all my hardpoints on my battlemaster? Runs a touch hot but otherwise quite nicely.

I would still wager its inferior to a battlemaster that doesnt use all its hardpoints and runs a meta build like dual PPC/dualAC5 instead.

Quote

That said learning to NOT use all of your hardpoints in this game is often a learned methodology that seperates good players form the bad one.

If good players dont use all their hardpoints, then why have extra hardpoints? Its just misleading to new players. You should be able to use all your hardpoints without running excessively hot. And the way to do that is lower heat but also lower damage.

It would definitely increase build variety too. You might start to see something other than dual PPC/dual AC all the time if other weapons werent excessively hot.

Edited by Khobai, 01 February 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I would still wager its inferior to a battlemaster that doesnt use all its hardpoints and runs a meta build like dual PPC/dualAC5 instead.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1faabe265ed3d76

I enjoy it, its a good brawling mech actually. Frankly I like it more then the ppc/ac version.

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

If good players dont use all their hardpoints, then why have extra hardpoints? Its just misleading to new players. You should be able to use all your hardpoints without running excessively hot. And the way to do that is lower heat but also lower damage.

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

That said learning to NOT use all of your hardpoints in this game is often a learned methodology that seperates good players form the bad one.

[Black Arachne]

A Mech should only overheat if the amount of heatsinks it has is not equal to the heat output of the weapon. That is Battletech., this Ghost heat BS is about to lose another player and I just started playing recently. Not a single mechwarrior game in the past had this mechanic.

[Voivode]

I hear you Black Archane, but if you'd started before GH became part of the game you'd probably understand why they did it. The game was at a state back then where there was essentially one mech using one build that dominated everything. It was pretty bad. Perhaps there were better solutions that would have been better, but I'm glad they recognized the issue and implemented some kind of solution.

[Varent]

Voivode, on 01 February 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I hear you Black Archane, but if you'd started before GH became part of the game you'd probably understand why they did it. The game was at a state back then where there was essentially one mech using one build that dominated everything. It was pretty bad. Perhaps there were better solutions that would have been better, but I'm glad they recognized the issue and implemented some kind of solution.

I recall 6 large laser stalkers cutting small mechs in half with ease.

also remember the 60 alpha 6 ppc stalker. That made me sad.

Was somewhat disgusting.

tis sorta why i welcomes ghost heat myself.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I recall 6 large laser stalkers cutting small mechs in half with ease.

also remember the 60 alpha 6 ppc stalker. That made me sad.

Was somewhat disgusting.

tis sorta why i welcomes ghost heat myself.

An assault mech fielding 6 large lasers should be able to cut a light in half. Why did a light mech charge the stalker. This isn't David vs Golitath.

Easy fix for the 6 ppc stalker - take out 2 of the energy slots and replace them with missiles or restrict to medium or smaller weapons.

Edited by darkchylde, 01 February 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Varent]

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

An assault mech fielding 6 large lasers should be able to cut a light in half. Why did a light mech charge the stalker. This isn't David vs Golitath.

Easy fix for the 6 ppc stalker - take out 2 of the energy slots and replace them or restrict to medium or smaller weapons.

the lights werent charging, they were about 1000 meters away or 800 ish. basically running around a corner and getting cut in half.

that said you could do that with the slots, though it might be a touch restrictive. Some people do still like using those builds and instead just rotate through the weapons to manage there heat better. Hence why ghost heat was implimented. Still allows for the build, just not the super high alpha.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

the lights werent charging, they were about 1000 meters away or 800 ish. basically running around a corner and getting cut in half.

that said you could do that with the slots, though it might be a touch restrictive. Some people do still like using those builds and instead just rotate through the weapons to manage there heat better. Hence why ghost heat was implimented. Still allows for the build, just not the super high alpha.

Assault vs Light - Assault's going to win (More Armor/Weapons) unless the light gets into its blind spot. And if that happens, player just gets on his voice com and chat and calls for a swatter.

Ghost Heat prohibits builds and punishes energy heavy mechs. So unless PGI gets rid of this mechanic, reworks it to allow for more, replaces some energy slots with ballistics, fix DHS, and dissipation. Ballistics will continue to reign supreme.

[Varent]

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Assault vs Light - Assault's going to win (More Armor/Weapons) unless the light gets into its blind spot. And if that happens, player just gets on his voice com and chat and calls for a swatter.

Ghost Heat prohibits builds and punishes energy heavy mechs. So unless PGI gets rid of this mechanic, reworks it to allow for more, replaces some energy slots with ballistics, fix DHS, and dissipation. Ballistics will continue to reign supreme.

That is not the case with mwo. and it shouldnt be since its part of the circle of rock paper scissors that is created. In order for lights to fullfill a roll they are very good vs assaults. With the exception of assaults that mount streaks and even then they can usually take them since they are slow. The 6 large laser stalker was simply stupid.

And no it only punishes players that wanted to have massive alphas from incredible ranges. ghost heat goes up to 6 medium lasers before it effects you. It only majorly effected large lasers and ppc/erppc. It was put in for a very specific reason and was a good thing.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

That is not the case with mwo. and it shouldnt be since its part of the circle of rock paper scissors that is created. In order for lights to fullfill a roll they are very good vs assaults. With the exception of assaults that mount streaks and even then they can usually take them since they are slow. The 6 large laser stalker was simply stupid.

And no it only punishes players that wanted to have massive alphas from incredible ranges. ghost heat goes up to 6 medium lasers before it effects you. It only majorly effected large lasers and ppc/erppc. It was put in for a very specific reason and was a good thing.

A lights role is a scout/harrasser.

Ghost Heat punishes stock mechs - the awesome with 20 DHS can't even use 2 of its PPC's before shutting down which takes around 15 seconds. Now add the third, 8 seconds. The mech is not capable of filling its role as a long range fire support. Part of the problem is ghost heat and the fake DHS we have. This mech should be playable. The only thing Ghost heat has done was limit builds and made energy mechs pariahs while crowning Ballistics as the preffered weapon of choice. Also take a look at pulses, the heat system can't even support these weapons in their current form - hence why they are not affected by ghost heat.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

That is not the case with mwo. and it shouldnt be since its part of the circle of rock paper scissors that is created. In order for lights to fullfill a roll they are very good vs assaults. With the exception of assaults that mount streaks and even then they can usually take them since they are slow. The 6 large laser stalker was simply stupid.

And no it only punishes players that wanted to have massive alphas from incredible ranges. ghost heat goes up to 6 medium lasers before it effects you. It only majorly effected large lasers and ppc/erppc. It was put in for a very specific reason and was a good thing.

Light's are not assault killers - they are scouts. Ghost heat is a bad mechanic and punishes mechs that rely on multiple energy weapons where as my Cataphract and Jagers can fire non stop with no fear of running out of ammo or having an ammo explosion. I specifically target every energy mech that I see because they are incapable of trading blow for blow and are dead before their weapons have either recycled or unable to act due to their heat.

Edited by darkchylde, 01 February 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[Elyam]

I'd rather see and hear:

AC/20=4 rounds over 1.2 sec (WHAP...WHAP...WHAP...WHAP) (powerful, definite separation)
AC/10=5 rounds over 1 sec (Whop..Op..Op..Op..Op) (close, strong staccato)
AC/5=7 rounds x over .8 sec (brap.ap.ap.ap.ap.ap.ap) (like heavy machinegun, barely separate)
AC/2=10 rounds x over .6 sec (bra.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.ap) (more of a rip)

I don't care how many actual damage segments are occurring, nor within what period, under the hood. But the visual and audible effects I think should match the above. Based on how I've come to perceive the ACs over all the years and materials of BT.

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

A lights role is a scout/harrasser.

Ghost Heat punishes stock mechs - the awesome with 20 DHS can't even use 2 of its PPC's before shutting down which takes around 15 seconds. Now add the third, 8 seconds. The mech is not capable of filling its role as a long range fire support. Part of the problem is ghost heat and the fake DHS we have. This mech should be playable. The only thing Ghost heat has done was limit builds and made energy mechs pariahs while crowning Ballistics as the preffered weapon of choice. Also take a look at pulses, the heat system can't even support these weapons in their current form - hence why they are not affected by ghost heat.

Currently lights beat assaults, mediums beat lights, Heavies beat Mediums, Assaults beat heavies. This is the rock paper scissors of MWO. With a few exceptions thrown in.

Im not exactly sure what you are doing wrong in your awesome. But with 20 DHS and firing 2 ppc I assure you ou will not overheat in 15 seconds lol.....

The awesome isnt a broken mech because of ghost heat. Honestly Ive made multiple ppc builds and er large laser builds and they work just find. The awesome is a broken mech because of its hit box and shape and nothing will change that anytime soon. Its a poorly designed boxy looking mech that absorbs damage like a sponge.

darkchylde, on 01 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Light's are not assault killers - they are scouts. Ghost heat is a bad mechanic and punishes mechs that rely on multiple energy weapons where as my Cataphract and Jagers can fire non stop with no fear of running out of ammo or having an ammo explosion. I specifically target every energy mech that I see because they are incapable of trading blow for blow and are dead before their weapons have either recycled or unable to act due to their heat.

no, lights are very good at killing assaults I assure you. can swear up and down they arent but everyone knows they are and its part of this game. There have been multiple posts on assault pilots complaining up and down about it. It however creates a balance.

Most energy boat mechs should be far behind enemy lines and playing a more supportive roll. at least the ppc/large lasers should. Ive very effectively used 4 erlarge laser builds to harass the hell out of other mechs with very few problems. Just have to know your roll.

Elyam, on 01 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Based on how I've come to perceive the ACs over all the years and materials of BT.

actualy functional game mechanics for a shooter > perception based off lore.

[Serpieri]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Currently lights beat assaults, mediums beat lights, Heavies beat Mediums, Assaults beat heavies. This is the rock paper scissors of MWO. With a few exceptions thrown in.

Im not exactly sure what you are doing wrong in your awesome. But with 20 DHS and firing 2 ppc I assure you ou will not overheat in 15 seconds lol.....

The awesome isnt a broken mech because of ghost heat. Honestly Ive made multiple ppc builds and er large laser builds and they work just find. The awesome is a broken mech because of its hit box and shape and nothing will change that anytime soon. Its a poorly designed boxy looking mech that absorbs damage like a sponge.

That's an incorrect assumption, which you are aware of. Here is an example.

A medium does not kill a light unless it's a light killer with streaks - one without streaks the fight will go down to who ever was better able to direct fire at the opposing mech.

The 9M overheats in 15 seconds - feel free to check out on smurfy.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c790e1d7d8cbcc

The awesome is hampered by Ghost heat - because it is not able to utilize its PPC's/Lasers to full affect without shutting down and and being destroyed. Using 4 ERLasers on the 8Q will shut the mech down in 12 seconds. The Awesome's role is supposed to be a long range fire support mech which it can not sustain, even if it downgraded to PPC's firing all 3 he would shut down in 15 seconds, firing only 2 shutdown in 40 seconds. Ballistics are better at this role, firing faster and lasting longer.

Edited by Serpieri, 01 February 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Varent]

Serpieri, on 01 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

That's an incorrect assumption, which you are aware of. Here is an example.

A medium does not kill a light unless it's a light killer with streaks - one without streaks the fight will go down to who ever was better able to direct fire at the opposing mech.

The 9M overheats in 15 seconds - feel free to check out on smurfy.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c790e1d7d8cbcc

The awesome is hampered by Ghost heat - because it is not able to utilize its PPC's/Lasers to full affect without shutting down and and being destroyed. Using 4 ERLasers on the 8Q will shut the mech down in 12 seconds. The Awesome's role is supposed to be a long range fire support mech which it can not sustain, even if it downgraded to PPC's firing all 3 he would shut down in 15 seconds, firing only 2 shutdown in 40 seconds. Ballistics are better at this role, firing faster and lasting longer.

your using erppc. Wich is probly your problem there. Strongly suggest you change that to regular ppc then come back and talk.

regarding mediums. The strength of lights is in there maneuverability wich allows them to out maneuver and get behind mechs over and over again. They are only moderatly more maneuverable then a medium mech however wich offers more armor, and more firepower. So no, the medium outclasses the light pretty hard.

[Khobai]

Quote

So no, the medium outclasses the light pretty hard.

Not really. Jenners have 6 lasers, jumpjets, the speed to get behind you and backshot which is worth 5 times more than a frontshot.

Most mediums also have 6 hardpoints, no jumpjets, and go slightly faster than half the speed. Mediums are outclassed pretty hard until you get upto the Shadowhawk which is borderline between a medium and a heavy.

[VanillaG]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 February 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Just remember to scale the heat per shot so an AC20 is still making 6 heat per burst.
...
...
...
What I can't disagree with the idea but have an acceptable suggestion to keep it feel right?

Heat is per trigger pull and is independent of number shells launched per trigger pull so in that regard you should be generation the same amount of heat. The only things that should be looked at is when is should heat be generated, at the start of the burst, at the end, or throughout the burst as each shell is launched, and should cooldown be adjusted to take into account burst duration. You can mess with both of those mechanics to change how the weapons behave.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

Not really. Jenners have 6 lasers, jumpjets, the speed to get behind you and backshot which is worth 5 times more than a frontshot.

Most mediums also have 6 hardpoints, no jumpjets, and go slightly faster than half the speed. Mediums are outclassed pretty hard until you get upto the Shadowhawk which is borderline between a medium and a heavy.

as an example.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3d01f528e90db9

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...704619ffffb3247

more armor similiar speed, same firepower better heat efficiency

just as an example. can mount even more firepower on some of the black jacks. Many other mech can mount ac as well and do it more effectively.

So no... actually mediums are much.. much greater then lights in a one on one fight.

[darkchylde]

Varent, on 01 February 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

no, lights are very good at killing assaults I assure you. can swear up and down they arent but everyone knows they are and its part of this game. There have been multiple posts on assault pilots complaining up and down about it. It however creates a balance.

Most energy boat mechs should be far behind enemy lines and playing a more supportive roll. at least the ppc/large lasers should. Ive very effectively used 4 erlarge laser builds to harass the hell out of other mechs with very few problems. Just have to know your roll.

I never said they weren't good at killing assault in mechwarrior online. The nature of lights are scouts not assault killers but in mechwarrior online they are capable of killing whatever they go against. Be it Light, medium, heavy, or assault, their biggest deterent is how many streaks the other mech has. The reason they are capable of doing this is because of pin point precision where they can use their speed to get behind a mech and core it.

The most effective light at doing this is the JR7-F with 6 energy hardpoints - a mech design that only had 4 lasers to begin with and later had an srm added but PGI decided it needed 6 Coupled with JJ's you have a mech that can mix it up and get out of jam by circumventing terrain. Despite this, Heavies, and assaults are capable of killing them, even when the Jenner is at their feet. it comes down to the weapons the mech has, its speed, and the ability of the pilot to keep the Jenner off its rear. Which sometimes is as simple as backing up against a solid object and swinging those arms.

The awesomes are becoming an unseen mech (pardon the pun). The last one I saw was months ago, and it was the AWS-8R at that. The supportive role of the 8Q and 9M is better done by Jagers and cataphrat's using AC's which fire faster and run way cooler and do not require them to maintain a beam. Until the current heat system is revamped (ghost heat, dhs, dissipation), Ballistics are the superior choice.