23 replies to this topic

[ColonelMetus]

there was no reason to nerf the AC 10, it was a weapon used by vary few and now even less.
(if you didnt know they lowered the projectile speed by 50%)

it appears now as if the AC 10 is traveling in slow motion, and can be casually dodged by assault mechs.

but wait! why was ac 10 nerfed? well that was done to de-sync it with PPC, thats right! they nerfed the under utilized AC 10 because they didnt want the projectile hitting you at the same time as a PPC. so they D-sided to neuter the ac 10. this has to stop.

lets quickly review all the weapons that have nerfed ONLY because of PPC.

AC 10
Gauss rifle
Medium laser (ghost heat)
Large laser ("")
Large Pulse Laser("")
Medium pulse laser("")

all of these weapons were nerfed ONLY for their connection with the PPC

whats next? nerf AC 5 the only remaining non PPC weapon in the game that actually works?

FOR THE REPUBLIC

[o0Marduk0o]

Please tell me that you mean AC20. Otherwise my faith in mankind is lost.

But even then it makes little sense.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 02 February 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Whatzituyah]

Game balance is not easy they are trying to make people brawl again but failing its still poptart meta.

[Helsbane]

I would be happy with PPC / ERPPC based damage having a 50% direct damage / 50% adjacent panel splash effect. That would take it out of the 'required use' category.

The nerf to both the AC10 and AC20 could then be redacted, returning both projectile speeds to pre nerf condition.

As for the Gauss / PPC combo meal, the very nature of the weapons could be used to decouple them. PPC based weapons could create an electromagnetic disturbance with desynchs the coils in the Gauss rifle, causing them to o off line for .75 seconds as the computer resets them. On the flip side, firing a Gauss rifle causes a massive, immediate, power drain as it recharges, preventing power hungry PPC based weapons from firing for..... wait for it.... about .75 seconds. There, completely separate from one another. This means we could also remove the charge mechanic from the Gauss rifle as it wouldn't be needed any longer (doesn't work anyway. A simple finger roll as you fire the gauss negates the mechanic entirely).

[Strum Wealh]

o0Marduk0o, on 02 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Please tell me that you mean AC20. Otherwise my faith in mankind is lost.

But even then it makes little sense.

"Weapon Tuning:

• AC/20 - Projectile speed decreased from 900m/s to 650m/s (250m/s decrease)
  
• AC/10 - Projectile speed decreased from 1100m/s to 950m/s (150m/s decrease)"

(source)

The AC/10 change represents a 13.6% decrease in projectile velocity, while the AC/20 change represents a 27.8% decrease in projectile velocity.

The effect is that the AC/10 (and, both more to the point and to a substantially greater degree, the AC/20) becomes more ill-suited to long-range engagements relative to the weapons designed/designated for that purpose (e.g. AC/2, AC/5, UAC/5, Gauss Rifle), thus reinforcing its role as a short-to-mid range weapon.

Note, also, that the LB 10-X AC is still set at the AC/10's previous 1100 m/s value, which (together with the longer optimal range) serves as a selling point on that weapon (as an offset to the non-concentration of damage in a single hitbox location).

[Zerberus]

ColonelMetus, on 02 February 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

there was no reason to nerf the AC 10, it was a weapon used by vary few and now even less.
(if you didnt know they lowered the projectile speed by 50%)

BS

It was lowered from 1100m/s to 950. That is 13.6% slower.

Any post that starts with over the top exaggerations to make a miniscule point is generally not worth further reading.

I decided to do so anyway, and found nothing but connections that were tenuous at best, intermingled with the asinine assumption that Ghost heat was implemented solely because of the PPC, and that it`s application to other weapons was a pure side effect of attempting to nerf the ppc. Which is an even larger pile of BS

Nothing good can come out of arguing such a delusional hypothesis with a person who obviously does not care about facts.

Edited by Zerberus, 02 February 2014 - 02:05 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Strum Wealh, on 02 February 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

"Weapon Tuning:

• AC/20 - Projectile speed decreased from 900m/s to 650m/s (250m/s decrease)
  
• AC/10 - Projectile speed decreased from 1100m/s to 950m/s (150m/s decrease)"

(source)


The AC/10 change represents a 13.6% decrease in projectile velocity, while the AC/20 change represents a 27.8% decrease in projectile velocity.

Yeah I know and in my opinion the change is reasonable but read the OP again, he claims it is a 50% decrease. And that Assaults dodge his shots. Ok, maybe he shoots at targets in max weapon range.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Whatzituyah, on 02 February 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Game balance is not easy they are trying to make people brawl again but failing its still poptart meta.

Brawling can be done just fine, seen many do so effectively, the art is in knowing/learning how to force a brawling situation and then maintain and manipulate that situation.

[Mystere]

ColonelMetus, on 02 February 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

(if you didnt know they lowered the projectile speed by 50%)

Your exaggerated number indicates that you have zero credibility, are a troll, or both. As such, you have been reported.

[Clit Beastwood]

On the subject of decreased speed - has anyone noticed better hit detection with the reduced speeds? I swear it's better, but as we all know, anecdotal evidence is worth the paper it's written on. I know it's perceived as a nerf, but after re-learning the speed... I miss the old speed, but I'm killing more lights with the ac20 (and as a light I'm dying more to ac20 hits, albeit at shorter range). Maybe it's a buff if you consider HSR.

Edited by Fierostetz, 02 February 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Helsbane, on 02 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I would be happy with PPC / ERPPC based damage having a 50% direct damage / 50% adjacent panel splash effect. That would take it out of the 'required use' category.

The nerf to both the AC10 and AC20 could then be redacted, returning both projectile speeds to pre nerf condition.

As for the Gauss / PPC combo meal, the very nature of the weapons could be used to decouple them. PPC based weapons could create an electromagnetic disturbance with desynchs the coils in the Gauss rifle, causing them to o off line for .75 seconds as the computer resets them. On the flip side, firing a Gauss rifle causes a massive, immediate, power drain as it recharges, preventing power hungry PPC based weapons from firing for..... wait for it.... about .75 seconds. There, completely separate from one another. This means we could also remove the charge mechanic from the Gauss rifle as it wouldn't be needed any longer (doesn't work anyway. A simple finger roll as you fire the gauss negates the mechanic entirely).

Excelent ideia!

[JohnnyWayne]

ColonelMetus, on 02 February 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

but wait! why was ac 10 nerfed? well that was done to de-sync it with PPC, thats right! they nerfed the under utilized AC 10 because they didnt want the projectile hitting you at the same time as a PPC. so they D-sided to neuter the ac 10. this has to stop.

lets quickly review all the weapons that have nerfed ONLY because of PPC.

AC 10
Gauss rifle
Medium laser (ghost heat)
Large laser ("")
Large Pulse Laser("")
Medium pulse laser("")

all of these weapons were nerfed ONLY for their connection with the PPC

whats next? nerf AC 5 the only remaining non PPC weapon in the game that actually works?

I truly mean it. You have no slightes CLUE what the real issue is.

The issue are AC's all together in the broken heat system. There is no way in hell that you could combine a PPC with any other weapon than an AC.

They are low heat/ high dps and have perfect synergy with PPC's. That together with the DPS ACs put up is the issue. It always was and it wasn't slightly touched by PGI.

Moreover they should have nerfed the cooldown for ACs or redesign them and adjusted PPC heat and / or the heat system overall. This combined with Jumpjets changes would remove any balance issues whe have now.
An AC2 that has almost the damage of an AC20 with more than less half the weight? Single jumpjet Mechs with 40 alphastrikes that poptart the **** out of anything? And you really stand here and claim PPC are the problem?

EVERY downside of ACs is negated by the amount of heatsinks you have to take to field PPCs. Not even to think of backup energy weapons.

So, AC10s were rare in use. Usually you would meet 2PPC + AC20 poptarts. They nerfed it in advance (but the wrong way). I proposed already ways to desynch any weapon from the PPC, but well they rather keep playing with numbers.

To your nice list: Any laser was never nerfed, especially not because of PPCs. Moreover they are WAY WAY better than in TT, with lower heat and better damage. These weren't even connected to PPCs at all (how should they have been?!).

To be honest, so much stupidity and ignorance as you put up, I think you are a troll. No one can be so dumb and I will report you for it.

Spadejack, on 02 February 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Excelent ideia!

I second this. The spelling mistakes speak for themselfs.

What I mean with this is: Don't divide the damage, thats not how it works. Give PPCs the effect to destroy AC - bullets and a increasing chance to overload a gauss (leads to its destruction) if its shot together (ECM effects). If you shoot the PPCs together with a gauss give PPCs and Gauss 3 seconds additional cooldown, because they draw a ton of energy from the reactor (both weapons require a lot energy).

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 02 February 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[OmniJackal]

ColonelMetus, on 02 February 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

there was no reason to nerf the AC 10, it was a weapon used by vary few and now even less.
(if you didnt know they lowered the projectile speed by 50%)

it appears now as if the AC 10 is traveling in slow motion, and can be casually dodged by assault mechs.

but wait! why was ac 10 nerfed? well that was done to de-sync it with PPC, thats right! they nerfed the under utilized AC 10 because they didnt want the projectile hitting you at the same time as a PPC. so they D-sided to neuter the ac 10. this has to stop.

lets quickly review all the weapons that have nerfed ONLY because of PPC.

AC 10
Gauss rifle
Medium laser (ghost heat)
Large laser ("")
Large Pulse Laser("")
Medium pulse laser("")

all of these weapons were nerfed ONLY for their connection with the PPC

whats next? nerf AC 5 the only remaining non PPC weapon in the game that actually works?

FOR THE REPUBLIC

All weapons were nerfed because of the PPC because ghost heat was conceived to combat PPC boating.

[Strum Wealh]

Additionally, one issue that particularly affects the AC family is the relationship between damage (and damage drop-off) and range.

For ballistic weapons, the maximum range (at which the weapon will deal 0 damage to the target) is thrice the optimal range (at which the weapon can deal its full rated damage to the target), with the damage drop-off being a linear function of distance between the optimal range limit and the maximum range limit.

The optimum range of the AC/20 - the greatest distance at which a salvo will deliver full damage - is 270 meters.

• The range at which an AC/20 salvo will match the full damage of an AC/10 salvo is 540 meters - 20% greater than the AC/10's own optimum range of 450 meters, and matching the optimum range of the LB 10-X (which cannot concentrate damage on a single location at that range).
  
• The range at which an AC/20 salvo will match the full damage of an AC/5 salvo is 675 meters - 8.9% greater than the AC/5's own optimal range of 620 meters, and 12.5% greater than the 600-meter optimal range of the UAC/5 (which has the saving grace of being able to double-tap for higher DPS at range).
  
• The range at which an AC/20 salvo will match the full damage of an AC/2 salvo is 756 meters - 10.6% greater than the AC/2's own optimal range of 720 meters.

The optimum range of the AC/10 - the greatest distance at which a salvo will deliver full damage - is 450 meters.

• The range at which an AC/10 salvo will match the full damage of an AC/5 salvo is 900 meters - 45.2% greater than the AC/5's own optimal range of 620 meters, and a full 50% greater than the 600-meter optimal range of the UAC/5.
  
• The range at which an AC/10 salvo will match the full damage of an AC/2 salvo is 1170 meters - 62.5% greater than the AC/2's own optimal range of 720 meters.

Ostensibly, the projectile velocities of the AC/10 and AC/20 were reduced to nudge those weapons back into their design/designated roles of short-to-medium range heavy hitters by making them far more difficult - albeit not outright impossible - to use against targets at much greater distances (e.g. the range bands in which the class-2 and class-5 ACs are intended to shine, arguably in terms of both striking power & DPS).
It was either that, or drastically reduce their maximum ranges (e.g. from the "3x optimal" multiplier to a "2x optimal" multiplier) - and imagine how well that would have gone over.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 February 2014 - 09:08 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

OmniJackal, on 02 February 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

All weapons were nerfed because of the PPC because ghost heat was conceived to combat PPC boating.

Oh right, I forgot. And every weapon was linked with the PPC because its all due to PPCs. Heat penaltys were implemented to worsen high alpha boating overall. You still can use these builds, like the AC20 jager, but it won't be as effective.

Why do "these guys" keep popin up around here?

[Khobai]

A large part of the problem is PGI keeps increasing heat rather than reducing damage. Increased heat means mechs cant use all of their hardpoints efficiently and that leads to stale gameplay.

A better way to balance weapons wouldve been to reduce damage. Reducing damage means mechs can still use all their hardpoints and has the added benefit of weakening pinpoint weapons, which dominate the current meta.

[PhoenixFire55]

Its not just "AC10".

Gauss, AC20, AC10, AC2, PPCs, SRMs, LRMs, LLs, LPLs - all nerfed either directly or by ghost heat. All nerfs happened to prevent high-alpha builds and 'boating' builds from dominating. But guess what? Brawling never happened.

Instant auto weapon convergence = jump-sniping and hill humping for the win.
No instant auto weapon convergence = brawling for the win.

Boating and high-alpha were never a problem in BT. It makes all kinds of senses to actually 'boat' to maximize your mech efficiency. BT was balanced tho, same reason, you can alpha all you want but you'll spread your damage just like you spread damage with missiles and LBXs in MWO, so its DPS vs DPS no matter what weapons you use.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I ran a dual ac10 yeager for quite a while. it was not meta but fun to play and did pretty well. After the nerf it went from viable to just useless and even after getting adjusted it never did well but stayed on the south side of terribad, Now I will never run ac10 and it was hardly used before.

So in my view the nerf was stupid as is pretty much any nerf is.

[Joseph Mallan]

I guess its time to see what I can get done with Anton. Mud and I don't agree on a few topics, but if he is saying his AC10s are not getting it done for him, I would side with him having the right of it!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 February 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Almond Brown]

OmniJackal, on 02 February 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

All weapons were nerfed because of the PPC because ghost heat was conceived to combat PPC boating.

Wrong! Ghost Heat prevent Alpha Strikes in quantity. It does that well enough.