14 replies to this topic

[PanzerMagier]

Each clanner may only lock onto one target for the match, until that target is destroyed, they may not lock onto new targets...
Clan players may not see which targets their allies have locked onto. In other words no other red triangles on the map other than the one you've locked.
A clan player may only lock onto a target if no other clanner has that target locked.

This will enforce Zelbriggen. Clanners may still shoot other targets that are not locked but a true jade falcon wouldn't do that.

In the end, if the clan players want to play with zelbriggen, they have it. If they don't... At least they lose out on a lot of tactical bonuses that IS players will have. Simple balance solutions... fun, intuitive and canon! Probably the reasons why PGI will never implement it anyways.

Thoughts?

Edited by PanzerMagier, 23 January 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[tucsonspeed6]

I fail to see how this is 'dynamic,' so I'll just ignore the title for now. Forced zelbrigan is not a new idea, and plenty of others have put forward similar and possibly better balanced cases for forced or suggested zelbrigan. PGI has considered it and came to the conclusion that the game would not be fun or approachable for new players or those unfamiliar with the clans with these arbitrary rules attached.

Like it or not, that's how it's going to be. Thinking like a new player it makes sense. While most of us love the BT lore, someone new will just assume the game is broken when they try to target but nothing happens. Then when they ask why, by the time you say "Well, according to zelbrigan..." you've already lost them.

[PanzerMagier]

tucsonspeed6, on 23 January 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I fail to see how this is 'dynamic,' so I'll just ignore the title for now. Forced zelbrigan is not a new idea, and plenty of others have put forward similar and possibly better balanced cases for forced or suggested zelbrigan. PGI has considered it and came to the conclusion that the game would not be fun or approachable for new players or those unfamiliar with the clans with these arbitrary rules attached.

Like it or not, that's how it's going to be. Thinking like a new player it makes sense. While most of us love the BT lore, someone new will just assume the game is broken when they try to target but nothing happens. Then when they ask why, by the time you say "Well, according to zelbrigan..." you've already lost them.

Considering that we already have arbitrary and convoluted rules like ghost heat... I don't see how this being a bit complicated will have any real impact on the game.

Secondly whether zellbrigen is enforced is entirely optional to the clan player. Either way it enforces balance, clan players don't have to play RP'ng to play "fair" and we don't need to worry about surat scum that will just try use clans as a pay to win grinding excalibur. How you can NOT see this as Dynamic, leads me to believe you are rather closed minded and will only consider options that PGI would actually implement, thus making you as ignorant as them.

[Craig Steele]

PanzerMagier, on 23 January 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Each clanner may only lock onto one target for the match, until that target is destroyed, they may not lock onto new targets...
Clan players may not see which targets their allies have locked onto. In other words no other red triangles on the map other than the one you've locked.
A clan player may only lock onto a target if no other clanner has that target locked.

This will enforce Zelbriggen. Clanners may still shoot other targets that are not locked but a true jade falcon wouldn't do that.

In the end, if the clan players want to play with zelbriggen, they have it. If they don't... At least they lose out on a lot of tactical bonuses that IS players will have. Simple balance solutions... fun, intuitive and canon! Probably the reasons why PGI will never implement it anyways.

Thoughts?

How does it promote game balance?

[Zerberus]

Ironically, enforcing Zellbrigen would be completely counter canonical and NOT the Way of the Clans, in addition to teh much more pertinent reasons PGI is not implementing it (NPE).

What the IS loves to forget in these discussions, who`s general tenor is usually " I want the Boogeyman nerfed", is that they

1. BROKE Zell so many times in teh first waves of the invasion that it was not granted to them at all in later conflicts.
2. When Zell IS active, ANY shot from ANY combatant torards a mech not directly involved in a 1:1 duel with itturns the entire fight into a free for all (Read: full-blown Deathmatch, TKs ABSOLUTELY LEGAL)

So what they effectively ask for (despite clear statements that it will NOT happen) is a micronerf for the first 30 seconds of combat until they start to focus fire, immediately followed by shots in the back by the few IS people who DO understand the rules of Zell and how to apply them.

TLDR: Still the dumbest idea ever, and still somethign that only the IS wants because they were apparently scarred for life by the Clan Boogeyman that "ruined their game" in the early 90s (as if the Gauss hadn`t already done it years before ) A boogeyman that does not and presumably will not exist in MWO.

But understanding just that part of the connection that would require actual knowledge of both lore AND MWOs plans for the clans, information which we all know is nearly impossible to source, much less read

Edited by Zerberus, 03 February 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 03 February 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Ironically, enforcing Zellbrigen would be completely counter canonical and NOT the Way of the Clans, in addition to teh much more pertinent reasons PGI is not implementing it (NPE).

What the IS loves to forget in these discussions, who`s general tenor is usually " I want the Boogeyman nerfed", is that they

1. BROKE Zell so many times in teh first waves of the invasion that it was not granted to them at all in later conflicts.
2. When Zell IS active, ANY shot from ANY combatant torards a mech not directly involved in a 1:1 duel with itturns the entire fight into a free for all (Read: full-blown Deathmatch, TKs ABSOLUTELY LEGAL)

So what they effectively ask for (despite clear statements that it will NOT happen) is a micronerf for the first 30 seconds of combat until they start to focus fire, immediately followed by shots in the back by the few IS people who DO understand the rules of Zell and how to apply them.

TLDR: Still the dumbest idea ever, and still somethign that only the IS wants because they were apparently scarred for life by the Clan Boogeyman that "ruined their game" in the early 90s (as if the Gauss hadn`t already done it years before ) A boogeyman that does not and presumably will not exist in MWO.

But understanding just that part of the connection that would require actual knowledge of both lore AND MWOs plans for the clans, information which we all know is nearly impossible to source, much less read

Well yes and no.

Zellbrigen was offered during the first wave by most Clans but IS warriors had no idea what the phrase was let alone a custom that goes against all their ingrained training so it was more often that the strict rules of zellbrigen were not enacted.

However it is incorrect to say that Clan customs were not extended subsequently. There are several canon examples of the 2nd, third and fourth waves where it was offered and even accepted. On Blackjack a cadet of the training Battalion (Mark Harris) invoked a trial of possession for his parents home and won, and was subsequently discovered to be a Star Commander in the Gyrafalcon Galaxy on Tukayyid. Thats a Trial of Possession, Zellbrigen combat, Bondsman ritual, Trial of Position (to gain warrior status), and Trial of Position (Star Commander), without any other informal challenges.

As for your second point, yes even if fire is accidently directed at an "un nominated" target this does break the rules of Zellbrigen but it does not automatically trigger a free for all and it does not ever mean friendly fire (ie, "TK's absolutely legal") is permitted.

The offended side has the right to call the trial / zellbrigen to a close immediately and insist upon Judgement by the relevant adjudicator. It is a very serious offence to breach this Clan honour and can have serious consequences. The fates fo some Clans have been decided by breaches of trials and zellbrigen.

However, while that is the right to do, it is canon that "might is right" and the offended side often takes matters into it own hands there and then.

But there is no canon reference I know of where your suddenly forgiven for shooting fellow Clan members. You are certainly correct in a free for all where all pilots are opponents (for example, a Bloodname Melee), but no Clan would condone friendly fire, it's a waste of resources and simply not a part of the culture.

But regardless, I don't see how it introduces any Game Balance. Just because a target is locked that doesn't stop firing on another target so unless PGI are going to have some freeze on weapons discharging if they might hit an un nominated target, how can it be effected. Even if they did, where's the balance.

I just don't see how a Clan warrior having only one target until destroyed while IS pummel 12 v 1 without repercussion is balanced?

[Zerberus]

Craig Steele, on 03 February 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

Well yes and no.

Zellbrigen was offered during the first wave by most Clans but IS warriors had no idea what the phrase was let alone a custom that goes against all their ingrained training so it was more often that the strict rules of zellbrigen were not enacted.

However it is incorrect to say that Clan customs were not extended subsequently. There are several canon examples of the 2nd, third and fourth waves where it was offered and even accepted. On Blackjack a cadet of the training Battalion (Mark Harris) invoked a trial of possession for his parents home and won, and was subsequently discovered to be a Star Commander in the Gyrafalcon Galaxy on Tukayyid. Thats a Trial of Possession, Zellbrigen combat, Bondsman ritual, Trial of Position (to gain warrior status), and Trial of Position (Star Commander), without any other informal challenges.

Correct.

But if we use the timeline as a rough guide (which is what PGI is doing), then we will see teh clans at the beginning of wave 5

By that time, just about every clan warrior had learned that the IS pilots were generally dezgra, and Zell was rarely offered. When it was offered it was towards high ranking faction units, most certainly not mercenaries or random "we are allies" companies.

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As for your second point, yes even if fire is accidently directed at an "un nominated" target this does break the rules of Zellbrigen but it does not automatically trigger a free for all and it does not ever mean friendly fire (ie, "TK's absolutely legal") is permitted.

The offended side has the right to call the trial / zellbrigen to a close immediately and insist upon Judgement by the relevant adjudicator. It is a very serious offence to breach this Clan honour and can have serious consequences. The fates fo some Clans have been decided by breaches of trials and zellbrigen.

However, while that is the right to do, it is canon that "might is right" and the offended side often takes matters into it own hands there and then.

This actually depends highly on teh specific level of Zell that was in effect. In fact in some rare cases, it did not matter at all.

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But there is no canon reference I know of where your suddenly forgiven for shooting fellow Clan members. You are certainly correct in a free for all where all pilots are opponents (for example, a Bloodname Melee), but no Clan would condone friendly fire, it's a waste of resources and simply not a part of the culture.

A well known canon example is the Trial of Position of Aidan and Marthe Pryde of CJF. Aidan (knowingly) initiated a FFA by firing on a second opponent, and Marthe dispatched of him (costing him his position as a Mechwarrior) and her first opponent, earning herself the rank of Star Commander.

A detailed blow by blow of the encounter can be found in the Novel "Way of the Clans", I think chapter 9

One could of course argue that Aidan and marthe were not "friendly" per se, but I do feel that that is semantics...

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But regardless, I don't see how it introduces any Game Balance. Just because a target is locked that doesn't stop firing on another target so unless PGI are going to have some freeze on weapons discharging if they might hit an un nominated target, how can it be effected. Even if they did, where's the balance.

I just don't see how a Clan warrior having only one target until destroyed while IS pummel 12 v 1 without repercussion is balanced?

Agreed 100%

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 03 February 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Correct.

But if we use the timeline as a rough guide (which is what PGI is doing), then we will see teh clans at the beginning of wave 5

By that time, just about every clan warrior had learned that the IS pilots were generally dezgra, and Zell was rarely offered. When it was offered it was towards high ranking faction units, most certainly not mercenaries or random "we are allies" companies.


This actually depends highly on teh specific level of Zell that was in effect. In fact in some rare cases, it did not matter at all.


A well known canon example is the Trial of Position of Aidan and Marthe Pryde of CJF. Aidan (knowingly) initiated a FFA by firing on a second opponent, and Marthe dispatched of him (costing him his position as a Mechwarrior) and her first opponent, earning herself the rank of Star Commander.

A detailed blow by blow of the encounter can be found in the Novel "Way of the Clans", I think chapter 9

One could of course argue that Aidan and marthe were not "friendly" per se, but I do feel that that is semantics...

Agreed 100%

Caln Wolf, start of wave 5, Tamar, Natahsa Kerensky's initiates the battle for Tamar with the standard Clan customs. In broad terms, Khan's allowed the warriors to determine whether they would or would not use Clan customs. Many Clan warriors chose to do so right up until Tukayyid because they didn't want to "sink to their level". On some important planets or where the IS opponents where know to be unworthy (read all mercenaries which are sub humans to Clan warriors) they would not. Canon has a couple of examples where Khans ordered warriors to extend no custom or mercy but that was far from the norm.

Where does Zellbrigen have a level?? Solo combat is solo combat isn't it?

The Canon example you use is one where all participants are recognized opponents. Blood name mellee is another example. These are last man standing trials, "there can be only one" stuff. But if your Star was in a trial for a bloodname and the other side broke Zellebrigen, there is no way the Clan would condone you shooting a fellow clan member. There is a clear distinction between the custom of Zellbrigen and the goal of the trial it is being used for. It's far from semantics, they are two different things.

You present that to break zellbrigen is to condone friendly fire, it does not. If Zellbrigen is broken it doesn't change the goals of the trial, all it means is that you can disregard clan customs for the duration of the battle. This includes bondsman, bondsref, hegira (which would be a struggle to apply anyway), safcon and anything else you can think of. But if you break Zellbrigen in an environment where you have 24 other opponents, then you still have 24 other opponents. They can just shoot you while you're shooting someone else now.

Eg, Clan warrior A breaks Zellbrigen and engages a mech before destroying his nominated one, killing the new mech (cherry picker). Clan warrior B from the other side engages A, operates under Zellbrigen by choice and defeats Warrior A. Warrior A broadcasts he is a bloodnamed warrior of house X and invokes Bondsref so as his Blood house can adjudicate. Warrior B places PPC against cockpit and pulls trigger.

I find Clan customs improbable to say the least, pure Sci Fi. But they are damn compelling

[Zerberus]

Craig Steele, on 03 February 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

Where does Zellbrigen have a level?? Solo combat is solo combat isn't it?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Under "interpretation"

That said, somewhere in one of the rulebooks is a listing of level 1-5 to be applied for the game in progress, with 1 being "Zellbrigen or death, regardless of enemy actions" and 5 being "Zellwha?"

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The Canon example you use is one where all participants are recognized opponents. Blood name mellee is another example. These are last man standing trials, "there can be only one" stuff. But if your Star was in a trial for a bloodname and the other side broke Zellebrigen, there is no way the Clan would condone you shooting a fellow clan member. There is a clear distinction between the custom of Zellbrigen and the goal of the trial it is being used for. It's far from semantics, they are two different things.

Yes and no.

In a ToP Each mechwarrior candidate has 3 designated opponents. While all mechs on the Field are in fact, for the sake of Zell, quasi-Targets of Opportunity, the candidates are not necessarily meant to engage in combat with each other.

This is why I feel that specificially Trials of Position are a bit of a grey area. Yes to your interpretation, if the rules are strictly applied, but if aeons of tradition come into the mix (which they inevitably do, any and everywhere, in any universe), then I do feel that the Candidates are effectively "on the same team", much as the 5 mechs in a stat would be when facing 15 opponents from another clan /house /merc corp.

That said, I also hail from Clan Wolf, and we generally have the loosest adherence to Clan customs of all the invading clans. From the perspective of a Falcon, for example, I almost might as well be some IS Surat

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You present that to break zellbrigen is to condone friendly fire, it does not.

Nor was it my intent to do so, but I do see how that interpretation could be appied. But yes, clanners generally don`t go around shooting at each other unless that was the whole point to begin with.

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I find Clan customs improbable to say the least, pure Sci Fi. But they are damn compelling

Very.

Edited by Zerberus, 03 February 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 03 February 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Under "interpretation"



Yes and no.

In a ToP Each mechwarrior candidate has 3 designated opponents. While all mechs on the Field are in fact, for the sake of Zell, quasi-Targets of Opportunity, the candidates are not necessarily meant to engage in combat with each other.

This is why I feel that specificially Trials of Position are a bit of a grey area. Yes to your interpretation, if the rules are strictly applied, but if aeons of tradition come into the mix (which they inevitably do, any and everywhere, in any universe), then I do feel that the Candidates are effectively "on the same team", much as the 5 mechs in a stat would be when facing 15 opponents from another clan /house /merc corp.

That said, I also hail from Clan Wolf, and we generally have the loosest adherence to Clan customs of all the invading clans. From the perspective of a Falcon, for example, I almost might as well be some IS Surat


Nor was it my intent to do so, but I do see how that interpretation could be appied. But yes, clanners generally don`t go around shooting at each other unless that was the whole point to begin with.


Very.

LOL, I am just on another thread pointing out that Sarna is not Canon (albeit some good stuff there).

On the TOP, its 3 x 1v1 to start, but no one is on anyones "side". The trial is all about top dog. Defeat one and your a pilot. THEN you go to a 1 v 1 against whoever is finished. If you finished first and you go by Zellbrigen, you wait paitently for a new opponent. But you can attack a team mate there and then if you like, break Zellbrigen or not. Once they step in the Circle, only one steps out. Get 2 and you're a Commander, 3 = Captain. But at least 3 are getting nothing. It's not unreasonable that you could bag 3 before the other 1 v 1 is finished (I seem to recall someone got 4, but that was a novel, would take me a while to find it.)

As for the customs, you need to bear in mind these are new pilots keen to do "honour" to the clan so they are very mindful of the "rules". Only the boldest (aka Adian) would attempt otherwise.

PS. I'm Jade Falcon, can't you tell?

[Zerberus]

Craig Steele, on 03 February 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

(I seem to recall someone got 4, but that was a novel, would take me a while to find it.)

That would be the Black Widow herself, Miss Natasha Kerensky, albeit with the aid of Phelan Kell. If memory serves, she actually had to "retrial" at a future point, though the circumstances are not part of that memory.

Side Note: Kai Allard-Liao (Yes, Mr. Yen-Lo-Wang himself) actually holds the canon record with 5 kills piloting a Dire Wolf, though that was in a Wolf`s Dragoons ToP on Outreach.

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As for the customs, you need to bear in mind these are new pilots keen to do "honour" to the clan so they are very mindful of the "rules". Only the boldest (aka Adian) would attempt otherwise.

That is in fact a good point that I did not consider... then again, our trials are more like "Kk, just kill at least one of the other mechs out there, right?". We`d probably not be all to happy if you just "inadvertently" hit another mech thenturned around and shot your sibkin in the resulting FFA ... but then again, you did get a kill, so .... Welcome to your new Unit.

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PS. I'm Jade Falcon, can't you tell?

The thought never crossed my mind

Edited by Zerberus, 03 February 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 03 February 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

That would be the Black Widow herself, Miss Natasha Kerensky, albeit with the aid of Phelan Kell. If memory serves, she actually had to "retrial" at a future point, though the circumstances are not part of that memory.

Side Note: Kai Allard-Liao (Yes, Mr. Yen-Lo-Wang himself) actually holds the canon record with 5 kills piloting a Dire Wolf, though that was in a Wolf`s Dragoons ToP on Outreach.



That is in fact a good point that I did not consider... then again, our trials are more like "Kk, just kill at least one of the other mechs out there, right?". We`d probably not be all to happy if you just "inadvertently" hit another mech thenturned around and shot your sibkin in the resulting FFA ... but then again, you did get a kill, so .... Welcome to your new Unit.


The thought never crossed my mind

Ooooooooo, she had to retrial when she left Dragoons after the recall order and went back to Clan space.

She came out of that a Star Colonel so that is probably it. Bit unfair I guess, 60 year old warrior with 45+ years in the field against newb cadets, lol. Poor buggers.

She then got elevated to Sa Khan from memory by Ulric didn't she?.

I guess if 4 is Star Colonel, 5 is Galaxy Commander?? Jeez, lol, Ristar right there.

[Zerberus]

Craig Steele, on 03 February 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

Ooooooooo, she had to retrial when she left Dragoons after the recall order and went back to Clan space.

Ah, yes, th Grand Recall, thank you.

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She came out of that a Star Colonel so that is probably it. Bit unfair I guess, 60 year old warrior with 45+ years in the field against newb cadets, lol. Poor buggers.

Yeah, it wasn`t exactly a fair fight, just not for the reasons that appear obvious on the surface (3 vs 1 )

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She then got elevated to Sa Khan from memory by Ulric didn't she?.

Correct, when Ulric becomes ilKhan, he promotes her to Khan of CW.

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I guess if 4 is Star Colonel, 5 is Galaxy Commander?? Jeez, lol, Ristar right there.

And it`s kind of a bit embarassing that some random Freebirth can do that, but no Truebirth has, too

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 03 February 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Ah, yes, th Grand Recall, thank you.



Yeah, it wasn`t exactly a fair fight, just not for the reasons that appear obvious on the surface (3 vs 1 )


Correct, when Ulric becomes ilKhan, he promotes her to Khan of CW.



And it`s kind of a bit embarassing that some random Freebirth can do that, but no Truebirth has, too

And, and, and, he's a Capellean

[Zerberus]

Yeah, talk about pouring a Margarita in a wound...