229 replies to this topic

[Calamus]

I agree with Longwang, despite his phallic name. The current clan plan from PGI is a shallow, unimaginative way to deal with clans.

[mania3c]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

How is it an uproar? You want to be clanner, be a clanner, drive clan mechs that are OP but also behave like a clanner. But nobody forces you to be a clanner. Same for IS. If you look at the polls early on, its about 50-50 people wanting to affiliate themselves as clanners and as IS.

OP also suggested using BV for balance. That'll work too and you can have both clan and IS tech mechs on same team etc. Wait times are quite good for most players, could be even better if a lot of people didn't quit the game. Implement clans right and those people might just come back for even shorter wait times.

just check other threads where this was discussed..it was pretty clear many people disagree with clan/is players separation (not tech)..if IS and clan tech will be played very differently, you really can't force group of friends to choose ONE side.. it's pretty simple and no wise game designer would do that.. (it was already tried in some other games.)

I am sorry..but what is BV? battle value?... while I am not against this, what would this achieve? it has nothing with clan/is tech..

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

You said the difference was 25-50 percent when it is 20%< for almost everything but Missiles (Which are admittedly 50% lighter, same damage and range)

Oh give me a break ... lol Point was same anyway, clan weapons are better than their IS counterparts at 3050-ish year.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

How is it an uproar? You want to be clanner, be a clanner, drive clan mechs that are OP but also behave like a clanner. But nobody forces you to be a clanner. Same for IS. If you look at the polls early on, its about 50-50 people wanting to affiliate themselves as clanners and as IS.

OP also suggested using BV for balance. That'll work too and you can have both clan and IS tech mechs on same team etc. Wait times are quite good for most players, could be even better if a lot of people didn't quit the game. Implement clans right and those people might just come back for even shorter wait times.

I want my Clan Adversaries to have Clan equipment like the days of old, I want them to fight like Clanners, Cause that is the opponent I came to try and beat. IF Omnis are no better than IS Mechs... I'd rather finish up concurring the CapCon.

[mania3c]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

I want my Clan Adversaries to have Clan equipment like the days of old, I want them to fight like Clanners, Cause that is the opponent I came to try and beat. IF Omnis are no better than IS Mechs... I'd rather finish up concurring the CapCon.

this is excellent opportunity for private matches .. if there are many like-minded people, there should be no problem to find matches and play in true battletech fashion..

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

this is excellent opportunity for private matches .. if there are many like-minded people, there should be no problem to find matches and play in true battletech fashion..

Why would I need to have private matches when the Clan Invasion was the game I was offered as the main backdrop??? Now Lvl 1 Tech matches, or Merc n Merc action I can see, but a Private Match for the game's main scenario?

[z00med]

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

this is excellent opportunity for private matches .. if there are many like-minded people, there should be no problem to find matches and play in true battletech fashion..

exactly. Then everybody can have as much zellbrigen as he wants, IS would only have stochmechs (balancing done, Clans would have much better equipment, and you can roleplay as many trials of whatever before the match).

@OP: sorry, but your alias wiped my motivation to read through your ideas (looked at least structurized). I read too much similar stuff already. So join the ranks of the balancing gods here in the forums. You'll find the Olymp is a damn crowded place and all the Gods have different opinions.

edit: I read something, to be a bit polite. You seem to be extremly experienced when it comes to balancing something and full of fresh ideas, so have a jolly good time with your fellow gods. (the last was meant serious, the rest of the edit counts as "Irony intended")

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

but a Private Match for the game's main scenario?

For the specific scenario extraordinaire assuming this is a Ultra-realistic Roleplayinggame, clinging as close to the lore as is possible? Yes, I'd prefer if that stays in private matches.
Clans vs IS is what I am looking for, but I dont want to bring dice and miniatures...

Edited by z00med, 06 February 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

just check other threads where this was discussed..it was pretty clear many people disagree with clan/is players separation (not tech)..if IS and clan tech will be played very differently, you really can't force group of friends to choose ONE side.. it's pretty simple and no wise game designer would do that.. (it was already tried in some other games.)

Well if you affiliate yourself with a unit you are choosing side. WoW you choose alliance or horde, can't really say WoW isn't popular.

mania3c, on 06 February 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

I am sorry..but what is BV? battle value?... while I am not against this, what would this achieve? it has nothing with clan/is tech..

BV is usually Battle Value, yes. What this achieves is TimberWolf (MadCat) has something like 2500 BV while basic Orion that is 400 years old and with crap weaponry about 1200 BV. So what MM does is match a Timber vs two Orions for a fairly balanced match. Same way with stuff like AMS, ECM, BAP, they all add to mech BV. Different weapons add different BV, faster engines add more BV and so on. In other words unlike now when you drop in your top-notch Highlander of doom with same Elo score as you drop in a trial Stalker, you'll have the higher equivalent of Elo score the better mech you bring.

[Almond Brown]

ReXspec, on 05 February 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

stuff

That is the way it happened in ALL of the Battletech series!

And there is your answer, all nice and neat good sir. Those who ignore the past are destine to repeat it. I hope like hell that PGI does NOT repeat that mistake.

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 February 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Khobai]

This thread is a waste of time. Clan tech has to be nerfed because of pinpoint damage. Simple as that. You don't want clan tech nerfed? Convince pgi to remove pinpoint damage and redo their heat system while they're at it.

[ReXspec]

Khobai, on 06 February 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

This thread is a waste of time. Clan tech has to be nerfed because of pinpoint damage. Simple as that. You don't want clan tech nerfed? Convince pgi to remove pinpoint damage and redo their heat system while they're at it.

Add in crosshair deviation based on movement/recoil and slower rates of fire, and you fix pinpoint damage...

Problem is, PGI have admitted they can't do that with the CryEngine... which blows my mind considering that the CryEngine is one of the most flexible engines out there... and apparently stupid-easy to use (according to a programmer friend of mine).

Edited by ReXspec, 06 February 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[ReXspec]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

And there is your answer, all nice and neat good sir. Those who ignore the past are destine to repeat it. I hope like hell that PGI does NOT repeat that mistake.

Please tell me then how TT is more broken then MWO then... I would love to hear the sources behind THAT answer...

The past Battletech games are not perfect, but they are sure as hell better then MWO.

Edited by ReXspec, 06 February 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

z00med, on 06 February 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

For the specific scenario extraordinaire assuming this is a Ultra-realistic Roleplayinggame, clinging as close to the lore as is possible? Yes, I'd prefer if that stays in private matches.
Clans vs IS is what I am looking for, but I dont want to bring dice and miniatures...

The only part I would be clinging to is that Lyran unit X clashes with Falcon unit Y on Zotemeer. Ready... Fight. Winner is... whoever has a mech standing at the end. Does it change the TT Canon? Yes/No adjust the map to indicate who the planet belongs to in MW:O. Next match... House Kurita v Smoke Jaguar Turtle Bay scenario.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 February 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Well if you affiliate yourself with a unit you are choosing side. WoW you choose alliance or horde, can't really say WoW isn't popular.



BV is usually Battle Value, yes. What this achieves is TimberWolf (MadCat) has something like 2500 BV while basic Orion that is 400 years old and with crap weaponry about 1200 BV. So what MM does is match a Timber vs two Orions for a fairly balanced match. Same way with stuff like AMS, ECM, BAP, they all add to mech BV. Different weapons add different BV, faster engines add more BV and so on. In other words unlike now when you drop in your top-notch Highlander of doom with same Elo score as you drop in a trial Stalker, you'll have the higher equivalent of Elo score the better mech you bring.

But MM would need to take each pilots KDR into account and adjust BV for that Pilots Skillz Cause your BV for the Mech is only considering average play ability in said Mechs. A Timber Wolfs BV went up greatly if Phelan Kell (0G/0P) was the pilot over MechWarrior Redshirt (2G/4P).

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 February 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

But MM would need to take each pilots KDR into account and adjust BV for that Pilots Skillz Cause your BV for the Mech is only considering average play ability in said Mechs. A Timber Wolfs BV went up greatly if Phelan Kell (0G/0P) was the pilot over MechWarrior Redshirt (2G/4P).

Indeed. Just not KDR but rather smth that does reflect player skill. If you put an effort into it you can do it, neither KDR, Elo or current match score are what we need. If you do have some sort of score that does reflect player skill and multiply it by mech BV you will have more balanced matches if MM uses these. This is rather off topic already tho, I think we've discussed it in Elo threads many times already lol

[LastPaladin]

ReXspec, on 04 February 2014 - 12:49 AM, said:

Both PGI and the players need to get off the notion that this is somehow WRONG. It isn't. It's simply asymmetrical warfare. Not every piece of weaponry or tech can be made useful all the time.

I don't think anyone is saying it is wrong, just that it won't be any fun. If players can pick either clan or IS mechs to play, at a whim, and one tech is simply inferior, then very few will pick that tech, because it won't be any fun. Then we'll just have clan mechs shooting clan mechs all the time. At that point, battle value doesn't solve the problem, because if everyone is piloting clan mechs, nobody is handicapped by having an unusually high battle value.

[Almond Brown]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

stuff

but shouldn't have to be forced to buy Clan 'mechs to adapt.

Well there finally you came out and said it. You want all and any benefits the Clan Tech might have but don't want to have to BUY Clan Mechs to get it. That's fine. As stated by the Devs, you want Clan Tech, you drive Clan Mechs.

All that need be established now is how much of the known Clan advantages will the Tech maintain. Before we even see a weapon, the built in Engine(s) and HS space savings is already boon to a Clan Mech. Oh how I have yearned at times for some 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs. Soon we will have them, on the Clan Mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Indeed. Just not KDR but rather smth that does reflect player skill. If you put an effort into it you can do it, neither KDR, Elo or current match score are what we need. If you do have some sort of score that does reflect player skill and multiply it by mech BV you will have more balanced matches if MM uses these. This is rather off topic already tho, I think we've discussed it in Elo threads many times already lol

I just threw KDR out cause I feel it is more indicative of MY skill than W/L (that only needs me to provide 8% of a victory).

[ReXspec]

Almond Brown, on 06 February 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Well there finally you came out and said it. You want all and any benefits the Clan Tech might have but don't want to have to BUY Clan Mechs to get it. That's fine. As stated by the Devs, you want Clan Tech, you drive Clan Mechs.

All that need be established now is how much of the known Clan advantages will the Tech maintain. Before we even see a weapon, the built in Engine(s) and HS space savings is already boon to a Clan Mech. Oh how I have yearned at times for some 2 slot DHS for my IS Mechs. Soon we will have them, on the Clan Mechs.

If Paul's "model" of Clan design is to be believed, the Clan 'mechs will have an advantage over I.S. 'mechs...

LastPaladin, on 06 February 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I don't think anyone is saying it is wrong, just that it won't be any fun. If players can pick either clan or IS mechs to play, at a whim, and one tech is simply inferior, then very few will pick that tech, because it won't be any fun. Then we'll just have clan mechs shooting clan mechs all the time. At that point, battle value doesn't solve the problem, because if everyone is piloting clan mechs, nobody is handicapped by having an unusually high battle value.

On the contrary. If you make more content readily available, you'll actually have a greater variety of 'mechs. Battle Value would be applicable in both scenarios because it is still a better matchmaking system then weight class and elo alone.

[Almond Brown]

ReXspec, on 06 February 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Please tell me then how TT is more broken then MWO then... I would love to hear the sources behind THAT answer...

The past Battletech games are not perfect, but they are sure as hell better then MWO.

I'll tell you. TT is a Board game ffs. MWO is a quasi Sim shooter in real time. If you think you can actually compare it to the Other PC based MW games, then your delusion is much deeper than first assumed.

I will sight MW4 as the last MW game to die due to mixed tech. Took awhile but in the end, it even drove me away. I loved MW4 and all its predecessors then but mixed Tech is a poison that cannot be cured and will kill any MW game that allows it. YMMV