John MatriX82, on 09 February 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:
hahahaha yes nerfhammer!! Again?
- Seriously, instead of "nerfing" stuff from time to time, why don't you find the roots of what's wrong?!?!?!?
- like non-sized hardpoints,
- useless brawling weapons such as SRMs (nerfed by months and months and months),
- crippled movement archetypes (that made JJ-capable mechs dominant),
- useless pulse lasers,
- ghost heat that made using most weapons a pain (and still undocumented anywhere)
- gauss mechanics,
- size or scaling/hitbox issues with several chassis, such as Hunchies, Dragons, Awesomes, QuickDraws, Catapults, Trebuchets, Cicadas, most of being too oversized or having desperate need of model rework or true bonuses (extra armor on the hunchaback hunch, shoulder pauldrons made part of the arm hitbox instead of the size torso of the AWS)
But oh, I'm just venting air out of my mouth, I forgot I was talking with you PGI.
Nerf the Highlander, next on the list will be the Victor. Then what? Are you going to nerf the Atlases?!
Go on destroying your own game like you did so far since CB, that's why I've asked a refund and I'm not playing anymore. Pathetic.
MadCat02, on 09 February 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:
6 month later people starting to catch up that jumping snipers are overpowered
Edit: Note any references to "stock" and "max" are referring to armor even if Structure was just referenced.
Armor
What's amusing is that if maximum armor for each mech was per variant and based on stock, jump snipers would actually be dirt easy to kill.
Let's use a Stock variant armor + 100 = variant's new max armor.
Cataphract 3D. Starting armor 352. Current max, 434. New max, 452. But wait.
Cataphract 2X. Starting armor 416. Current max, 434. New max, 516. O_O But ~wait~!
Cataphract 4X. Starting armor 434. Current max, 434. New max, 534.
In terms of armor the 4X just trumped the 3D in the top seat.
(while comparing a 70 ton to a 65 ton isn't fair, compare the CTF 4X to the overpowered Jagers that were never meant to brawl and always known for being paper thin in armor. Jager current max, 422. S, stock 192, new max 292. DD stock 232 new max 332. A, 256 new max 356. This makes the Jager better for ranged combat and combat under cover due to its low armor but high mounted weapons. This also gives the Cataphract 4X a genuine purpose and a real reason to be chosen over a Jager or a 3D.)
The Victors? Typically start in the 336 to 400 range with a current maximum of 494. New maximum armor range is 436 to 500. Awesomes start at the 480 range and reach 494 with 0.06 armor left over (meaning the Awesome 9M can't even equip STOCK ARMOR. IT CANT EQUIP STOCK ARMOR! O_O!). Well damn, let's do the stock + 100 trick. Most Awesomes 580 (versus most armored Victor at new max 500), and the 9M at true stock (496) + 100 for a new max of 596 armor.
So the Awesomes get 580 and the 9M gets 596, but compare to the Stalkers. The most armored stalker is the 5M, equipped with 464 armor current max 526 new max 564. So even though every single mech gets a buff of 100 armor above stock, the Awesomes all get more armor than the most heavily armored (and superior) Stalkers.
But wait, there's more! Them Locusts? 128 armor with current max 138 turns to 228. Jenner D? 128, current max 238 and new max 228. Cicada A, 128, current max 274 and new max 228. What's the difference? Structure doesn't change. Structure of a Locust is 69. Structure of a Jenner D is 119. Structure of a Cicada A is 137. But while Locusts have universal stock armor, Jenners don't. The Jenner F has 224 (new max 334).
Compare to Ravens. Structure for all Ravens is 119. Current max armor on all Ravens is 238. Raven 3-L 161 stock, new max 261. Raven 2X stock 208, new max 308. Raven 4X stock 224 new max 324.
For comparisons: Highlanders and Atlases.
Highlanders range from 554 to 558. Current max is 558. Structure is 279. New maxes 654 to 658. However remember that 90 ton mechs are meant to be 90 tons.
Atlases are universally 608. Structure is 307. Current max is 614. New max is 708. Atlases finally feel like the walking tanks they should.
Hold on a second. What about Quickdraws and Dragons?
Currently 60 ton mechs max at 402. As it so happens, the Dragon 1-C's stock armor is 0.44 tons more than is possible for a 60 ton mech. It'd actually hold 14 points more armor with 0.2 left over. So the Dragon 1-C's true stock is 414 although MWO's 60 ton max is 402. The Quickdraw's armor starts at 256 to 286 depending on the variant. Their structure health universally is 201. The 1-C gets buffed + 100 to true stock (414) to become 514 (more armor than the heaviest armored non-hero Victor by 14 points) with superior speed in exchange for not as much firepower. The quickdraws go from stock + 100 to be (depending on the variant) 356 to 386 but can go faster much easier than the Dragons due to only needing energy and missile weight instead of ballistic weight. Also note that Quickdraws have jumpjets and were supposed to have front and rear firing weapons.
The Shadowhawk obsoleting the Hunchback? Nope. In 2 out of 3 cases of Shadowhawks their armor is inferior; swapped instead for jumpjets and speed. This puts the Kintaro, Griffin, and Wolverine a bit higher on the food chain in terms of armor even if they can't compete in firepower.
And 65 tonners? We covered the Jager getting pulled way out of the brawling league and into its proper lore-role of fire support. But damn that firepower will definitely make up for it! Meanwhile Catapults come in the middle line with about as much armor as many mediums but definitely better firepower and heat management and structure health. How about that Thunderbolt? Well the Thunderbolts are known for having nearly as much armor as assault mechs like the Victor and the Stalker. In fact, the Thunderbolt 9SE can't even equip its stock armor because it's higher than MWO's 65 tonner armor limit. Well it might be hotter than heck, it's reliant on either beam weapons or high weight PPCs or missiles, but it's got enough armor to tank better than a Victor with decent speed for its engines and modest firepower potential. More than makes up for the fact that it's a teenage-mutant-ninja-Awesome.
Autocannons.
But, if you think that's the only solution? Not at all. Let's take a look at how Battletech is supposed to be.
Autocannons range from 30mm to 203mm with 203mm being a single shot AC/20. There is exactly one mech-mounted single shot AC/20 and it's actually a clan UAC/20 mounted on a battlemech (Ebon Jaguar/Cauldron Born) that in lore can't mount two of them because the force would knock it over. It's also in lore the only battlemech to be able to mount such a large cannon as a bonus of its stable, low to the ground very long and very wide design. (This 65 ton mech is as long and with arms is wider than a Stalker with legs thicker than a Quickdraw, but has the height of an MWO Firestarter).
The highest caliber regular AC/20 is 185mm, which fires 4 shots each doing 5 damage in a slow-fire burst and is called the Chemjet Gun; it's actually mounted on a tank. Though versions of it can be fitted on battlemechs. The Atlas carries a 100mm Deathgiver which is clocked in at 15 bullets = 20 damage (1.33) and is fully automatic churning out a shot in MWO's 4 second standard every 0.2667 seconds (something impossible to do so it'd likely get changed). The Hunchback carries a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which is a 5 shot AC/20 in a slightly faster burst-fire (4 damage per bullet).
For comparison, the Hunchback II-C carries twin UAC/20s which are 6 shots from one of them to get 20 damage and has an "ultra mode" to fire twice as fast to churn out 12 shots for 40 damage. (3 1/3 damage per bullet * 6 becomes 20 damage). These are specifically described to be slow firing fully automatic weapons with two firing speeds.
At the 4 second AC/20 interval, the Hunchback II-C's UAC/20s would fire fire once every 2/3rds of a second and on ultra mode once every 1/3rd of a second, completing 6 and 12 shots in 4 seconds respectively. To compare, the Hunchback's Tomodzuru was a 5 shot burst-fire with a reload time. It still has to churn out 20 damage in 4 seconds. If it were automatic it'd pump out a round every 1.25 seconds. But as a burst fire it needs to pump rounds much faster and have time to reload. So say 0.25 seconds between rounds, 5 rounds, 1.25 seconds total to pump out 5 shots of 4 damage each, leaving 2.75 seconds to reload the next cassette (MWO's word for magazine).
Of the autocannon types, single shot ones are so rare that only a single battlemech's autocannon has ever been described as single shot. Most are overly simplified fully automatic or burst-fire weapons; which was their great advantage over the hand-reloaded single shot Mech Rifles where the highest caliber rifle could only do 9 damage from a rifle that weighed 8 tons and could only fire once in a period of 5 or so seconds and generated a LOT more heat.
Burst types are very common. The Victor, as a matter of fact has a Pontiac 100 which was described as a 100 shot 14 ton low-caliber multi-barreled vulcan machine gun that was hand-reloaded by slapping in 100-shot magazines (which since AC/20s in TT get 5 shots, [that's 6 in MWO]) would have an ammo dispenser sticking out of its right torso that would deliver one of 5 magazines carried in each ton of ammunition into the left hand, then is slapped into right arm (or could be reloaded by the right arm in a slightly awkward sounding manner). On a single trigger pull the entire contents of the magazine is spewed in a "black cloud of death" that shreds through small parts of armor in one second which "feels like an eternity." In MWO standards, that means a reload would take 3 seconds. Each shot doing 0.2 damage, but fired at a rate of a bullet every 0.01 seconds or the more likely scenario of multiple bullets fired simultaneously as the barrels were never described as rotating. So assuming it can fire 20 bullets at once, it'd fire every 0.1 seconds at 20 bullets (*0.2 damage each) 5 spurts of 2 damage in 1 second, (with the first shot being 0 seconds in, then +0.1 from there is actually a 0.9 second long burst with a 3.1 second long reload). ~ Heir to the Dragon
The point is the lack of pinpoint here. Many autocannons are between 2 and 100 shots = rated damage. Some AC/2s fire 10 shots. But really they're supposed to do 2 damage in 10 seconds, just like machine guns but with far more range and considerably fewer uses. (Also note that in the same ton, an MG in TT gets 200 uses while the AC/2 gets 45, so the MG's typical 20mm caliber gets 2,000 bullets (and 100 shots to do 2 damage) to the AC/2's 45 allotments of 10 (450 shots) making that specific AC/2's caliber is obviously close to 80mm which is the AC/2's highest limit).
A 150mm AC/20 called the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon deals 2 damage in 10 shots but despite the girth of the bullet, the shells don't pack as much propellant so as to allow it to fire such large shells very rapidly.
An AC/5 called the General Motors Whirlwind/5 (120mm) splits out (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) out 3 shots to deal 5 damage (which is 1 and 1/3rd damage per shot) in a burst fire. Its AC/2 cousin the GM Whirlwind/2 is a 50mm automatic weapon with an unspecified amount of shots dealing its rated damage. (Killing Field) Both are Marauder mounted.
Ultimately, if autocannons were done correctly as multi-shot burst or automatic fire weapons... jump snipers wouldn't be an issue at all aside from their supposed-to-be issues with PPC and Gauss Rifle users. The PPCs would overheat, and the Gauss Rifles are easy to detonate.
Meanwhile, if the thresholds were done right, you'd never see anyone fire more than 2 PPCs at once otherwise they'd shut down. They can churn out maybe 6 PPCs in 10 seconds with enough heatsinks and still be fully functional and quite cold, but 2 PPCs is 66.67% of proper threshold. 2 ER PPCs is 100% of proper threshold. (Meaning Clan ER PPCs of 15 damage each could only be fired one at a time as well). And damage of heatsinks and ammo is supposed to begin at 80% heat. With 30 threshold, it'd be real easy to hit 75% by going at stock speed for a Timber Wolf after firing just one ER PPC. You'd need to slow down to safely sustain fire.
...Wait, all of this ties into balance, reducing alpha strikes into risky emergency use and maneuvers, increasing the need for chain fire, and what's this...making all the mechs last longer while giving role warfare back to the game? And just as a side effect it makes useless mechs viable, nerfs meta mechs, evens out the crap mechs with the meta mechs by having you choose between high firepower with low heat or moderate to crappy firepower with lots of armor or sacrificing one of the prior for good speed or sacrificing both of the prior for great speed. Hmmm!!! Choices and diversity among lots of mechs, too!
Seriously, the game isn't that difficult to balance if some simple thought was put into it. PGI's track record with convoluted and counter intuitive fixes is quite a headache.
Far as John's comment. If variants were given, certain weapon variants could be restricted to certain kinds of mounts. For example the modest caliber Crusher Super Heavy Cannon might be mountable on an Raven 4X. But the biggest Inner Sphere AC/20 for tanks and mechs, the Chemjet Gun, cannot (or it could, but as one book had described for a Jagermech equipping a high caliber AC/20 firing the gun literally tore the actuator, broke the feeding mechanism and made the arm useless and limp. And that wasn't even a 180mm AC/20 like the Hunchback's Tomo-whatever 5 shot AC/20).
The charge time on the Gauss Rifle is actually pretty good, but a longer hold time for the charge would be nice or a shorter charge time.
If the changes above were made, the PPCs could use a non-charge-mechanic firing delay for a particle buildup so that the cannons can "superheat" it and then force it forward. From the outside it'd look like a charge up, but really it'd be pull the trigger and the game does the rest.
Then everything would be kind of in order aside from hit detection. But to be honest while AC/20s have awful hit detection, lower caliber guns b.s. cannons like
AC/2s (Vid) and AC/5s and UAC/5s have never had hit registration issues for me before or after HSR. SRMs have bad hit detection because the missiles all fire at once. Why not stream fire them? Never had a hit registration issue with the Trebuchet 7k which can only fire 2 at once per launcher.
Well damn...Look at all that balancing I just did. And all I did was address some root issues and up the stem and down the branches to the leaves, look at this malting thing begin to take life.
Edited by Koniving, 09 February 2014 - 08:42 AM.
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