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#621 TygerLily

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostMavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Tyger -- think of it this way...

If you can move to any location you want with one mech.. and you can't with another mech... then fire all you want while they struggle to reach you...

Isn't that the mech you want?

People keep thinking that's its jump sniping that's the issue... but it's not.. the dps is low..

It's that non-jj mechs can't get to you to shoot you back with their superior dps.


Yea, I kind of jumped the gun and replied to Steel before catching up on the convo.

The movement archetype's effect on mediums (and brawlers in general) is a very good point...

I'd have to disagree that two PPC, and two AC/5's is low dps...that's potentially 30 damage every 4 seconds (7.5 every second). But more than that, it's good for 90 to 540 meters...and still dishes it out to 1000 meters. A brawler, could potentially do much higher dps but at an optimum of 270, a max of 600.Maybe higher if you do things like go LL instead of ML...but that only ups a portion of your armament vs the poptarts entire armament.

#622 YueFei

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

Yes, the slope mechanics tend to funnel the non-JJ-capable mechs into chokepoints and killzones (and the small map size and limited avenues of approach on several maps doesn't help). Or you are left hugging cover blinding yourself to what's happening because you can't jump up to take a look cuz hills > mech legs.

I agree with the notion that non-JJ-capable mechs should get buffs to handle more nimbly. Let JJ-capable mechs be able to make rapid use of cover vertically. Buff non-JJ-capable mechs' acceleration/deceleration so they can use cover horizontally with the same quickness that JJ-capable mechs use cover vertically.

Edited by YueFei, 10 February 2014 - 07:42 PM.


#623 MavRCK

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:22 PM

View PostTygerLily, on 10 February 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:


Yea, I kind of jumped the gun and replied to Steel before catching up on the convo.

The movement archetype's effect on mediums (and brawlers in general) is a very good point...

I'd have to disagree that two PPC, and two AC/5's is low dps...that's potentially 30 damage every 4 seconds (7.5 every second). But more than that, it's good for 90 to 540 meters...and still dishes it out to 1000 meters. A brawler, could potentially do much higher dps but at an optimum of 270, a max of 600.Maybe higher if you do things like go LL instead of ML...but that only ups a portion of your armament vs the poptarts entire armament.


Most poptarts lack sustained DPS..

2 PPC or 2 ERPPC means overheating.. so yes you have the burst.. but you lack the sustained dps after 2-3 shots... then you die very very quickly...

A brawler has higher burst damage and sustained dps...

Hence why very few top pilots believe the PPC/Autocannon meta is really OP. It's not the main issue.. the issue is movement and overall weapon balance.

You get pulse large lasers with longer range, less heat, more damage and I guarantee you people will stop using PPCs and you'll see Pulse Large Lasers.

... but people will always use JJs until non-JJ mechs are able to get up and around obstacles as easily or *gosh* easier?

#624 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

View PostMavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

... but people will always use JJs until non-JJ mechs are able to get up and around obstacles as easily or *gosh* easier?



Functional hill climb module, maybe?

#625 Deathlike

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:33 PM

View Postmwhighlander, on 10 February 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

Functional hill climb module, maybe?


Heresy!!! You take that good idea back!

:P

Edited by Deathlike, 10 February 2014 - 08:33 PM.


#626 CrashieJ

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:41 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 10 February 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:


Heresy!!! You take that good idea back!

:P


wait, he wants a module to actually climb angles instead of just bumbling around the edge waiting for a JJ mech to boost you up... (yeah JJ pushing is a tactic used by mechs to get Things such as Atlai up steep cliffs)

PGI cannot handle your request, please convolute your phrase and add +20% ghostheat & +2 meter range.

#627 Ryan Steel

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:02 PM

View PostTygerLily, on 10 February 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:


Can I ask you a serious question though? I've been playing for over a year now so it's not a matter of L2P...I've been through all the nonsense you have as PGI "balances" the game...Do you think that the poptart tactic is unbalanced? If not, why do the "competitive" teams run 10 of them? If the game is supposed to have balanced roles then wouldn't you NEED to have more than just direct fire?

I was probably too hostile in my responses toward deforce and co. earlier in this thread...I wasn't attacking you as players but just that you claim to be the best but you use the easiest mechs. Isn't that backwards? Kaffe said himself "Brawling is more fun." You yourself just said that without JJ it's rekindles some love for the game. Isn't that because the easy-mode is like playing a game with infinite ammo and health...boring?

I'm saying, we get matched up and I never see you use your superior skill to brawl with the odd-man-out weight class...you just bring four 80-90 ton poptarts and kill stuff from 1000 meters.


I had to think of your question seriously.

Let's take a walk down memory lane first. Poptarting came into play before the Highlander. Even before the first PPC buff (lower heat, higher projectile speed, hit detection), there were a few people in the game that used to poptart. Lots of you guys remember RockWolf. He was one of the first players to do it in this game with the Cat 3D. Not saying he was the first, but he was certainly one of them. He did it before the first buff. Around then, the tactic was used by dedicated back snipers, namely by clan DV8. It was effective when used properly, but few could pull it off. Most snipers prefered the gauss cat. It ran cool, there was no damage spread, and the alpha was considerable. The projectile speed of the PPC was slow, it run hot, and it spread damage, and worst of all, it had poor hit detection. DV8 always prefered ranged builds as it allowed them greater flexibility. This was at a time before I joined them. I was a dedicated medium pilot and Atlas pilot and I specialized in brawling. I also had my Ryan Steel Atlas RS special with 4 Large Lasers and 24 DHS. I never encountered poptarting very often, and when I did, I never showed my face, but used my speed to close in quick. Those builds were high alpha, but they overheated quick, and they'd get crushed at brawling range. During this time, most competitive units swore by DDC and centi brawlers. I never used the gausscat or the 3D up to that point. I never was threatened by them either. I never could understand the hysteria about them at the time. From my perspective, they were easily counterable.

Fast forward a bit to after January 2013. The first PPC buff took place, and more competitive units started using them, but most mixed them with brawlers with only their dedicated sniper pilots using the poptart 3ds. With the first PPC buff, poptarting became even more effective in the right hands. A well placed shot would pack a wallop. If my memory serves, it was still more of a competitive unit tactic and had still not become common in pug matches. Pug matches were dominated by the splat cat. I never used one as I didn't quite enjoy it. Still, I never had a problem against them. I'd always keep them at arm's length and make sure they were down before they got close. If they did get close I'd still manage to put them down, albeit suffering massive amounts of damage, and that was in an Atlas to boot. Despite all the rage about the splat cat and SRMs, I felt that the balance of the game was in more or less a good place. The king of the battlefield may have been recognized as the splat cat, but a good Cat 3D pilot could shoot you in the cockpit easily for a one hit kill. If they failed to killed the cat before it closed in, it was a one shot by the cat. There was a choice. Yeah, admittedly one salvoing an Awesome or a 3D is outrageous, but things could have been worse I think.

Around March, Adrian Steel stopped playing MWO and I decided to join a unit. DV8 caught my eye, so I decided to play with them for a while and see if I wanted to join them. I dabbled into jump sniping with a 3D and a 2 ER PPC 2 SRM 6 C1 'pult and got used to it instantly. I had a good aim, and the only thing I needed to get used to was positioning. SRMs were first halved in damage in a patch in waiting for a fix on splash damage. Brawling became less effective, but was still doable.

By April, everything about MWO was about to change when the Heavy Metal was released. I made my first buld with it which became my first dedicated jump sniper: 2 ER PPC, Gauss, 5 JJ, full armor, and an XL 330. I could do anything with it. It had no weakness. Granted, it was only as good as its pilot, and the vast majority of players couldn't make it work. It fact, people thought the make was terrible when it first came out to my surprise, and I had never been so dominant. I mean with my mediums and my Atlas I could crush entire teams, but that was before Elo was implemented. Who knows who I was facing? When Elo was implemented, I would still win, but I was facing better opponents. There was only so much I could do in an Atlas or a Hunchback. There was no limit to what I could do with the Heavy Metal. It was God-tier, and before the other Highlanders came out, it was the absolute P2W mech. Unrivaled if used properly. I could handle multiple opponents on top of me at the same time and beat them by rolling damage. By the time I joined DV8, the other highlanders came out and the First Popart/PPC war was born. Every single player in our Elo bracket had poptarts or Stalkers with PPCs. The splat cat had died even before it was completely nerfed to oblivion. In the next SRM nerf patch, splash damage was removed without a concomitant increase in damage to their old values. Brawling was ruined. This led to Koreanese uninstalling the game, as he loved brawling.

The rest is simply recent tweaks with Gauss, ghost heat, and other shenanigans.

So to answer your question, yes, I think it's unbalanced right now because all the alternatives are garbage in comparison. I think it requires skill to master well, and better players will win against other jumpsnipers. Do I think there's a counter to jumpsniping other than jumpsniping? The answer is yes, but only if you're a lot better than your opponent. For instance, Villz and I are very similar in ability, and if he was in a poptart, and I was in anything else but a Stalker, I think he would win without a shred of doubt provided he kept a decent distance from me. We did some tests with different highlander builds just for kicks and my large laser heavy metal was superior to his 733c ac20 ppc build at medium range and in the open. The poptarts are effective in areas of cover and with some range. A top player with a poptart would need a long range Stalker or another poptart to beat him, or a player in any other build that somehow vastly surpasses this top player's skill. For instance, while I've been strictly using non-jumpjet, non-ppc builds for the past few days, I definitely realize I'm playing with a handicap. I have good aim and I'm good at rolling damage. I have to play much better than the jump snipers to beat them. I have to vastly outplay them. When I do, I succeed. When I don't, I get instagibbed pretty much, and it's happened quite a few times in the past few days when I'd just poke out of cover for just a second and get alpha'd by 5-6 ppc mechs at the same time and cored. Whereas with a jumpsniper of my own, I only have to slightly outplay my opponent to beat them. Simply having a better aim ensures victory here. Without at least high alpha long range direct fire, you need superior aim, positioning, patience, and decisiveness on when to put on the pressure and that's against someone not as skilled as you that's jumpsniping. Whoever tells you otherwise is lying through their teeth.

It's not easymode right now because everyone is doing it. It basically puts you at equal footing. A jumpsniper against a non-jumpsniper non-stalker at range is lmaoroflcoptered if the player is of the same skill. When I cave a jumpsniping team's face in with a 3 LL 2 AC5 Protector, that's humiliation. That's like getting knifed. I should get rolled by good teams 100% of the time in that build against their JJ builds. That isn't the case though.

I've had enough of the PPC jump sniping, and so I've stopped. I'll use it to win competitive drops, or if I keep facing 12 HGNs again and again in pugs. With the current balance I'm gimping myself, but this is putting me through effective and intense training even when I get pooped on now and again. If a rebalance ever comes underway, I'll have an even bigger edge against my opponents. I don't think it needs to be nerfed, I just think other weapon systems need to be buffed and maneuverability of non-jj mechs needs to be buffed. Then, any build will be able to counter a poptart provided there's equal skill in question.

Edited by Ryan Steel, 10 February 2014 - 09:23 PM.


#628 Lysander Voidrunner

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:03 PM

View PostMavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Most poptarts lack sustained DPS..

2 PPC or 2 ERPPC means overheating.. so yes you have the burst.. but you lack the sustained dps after 2-3 shots... then you die very very quickly...

A brawler has higher burst damage and sustained dps...

Hence why very few top pilots believe the PPC/Autocannon meta is really OP. It's not the main issue.. the issue is movement and overall weapon balance.

You get pulse large lasers with longer range, less heat, more damage and I guarantee you people will stop using PPCs and you'll see Pulse Large Lasers.

... but people will always use JJs until non-JJ mechs are able to get up and around obstacles as easily or *gosh* easier?


Poptarters are inherently better than brawlers because the tactic allows them to not trade damage taken for damage given. Yes, they lack staying power in a fight, but it doesn't get to a fight. That's the whole point, they are only exposed to enemy fire for a short amount of time and in that amount of time they do more damage than they will receive. If a brawler gets close, yes, he will tear the highlander up, but he doesn't usually get to get close without taking either catastrophic damage or being taken out of the fight entierly. No matter how good the Brawler pilot is, he is at a serious disadvantage. Having a range advantage is one thing, but being able to show your body for 2 seconds by Jumping to crest a hill is far more advantageous than walking out of cover, dealing your damage and backing into cover.

The whole thing about people saying that mechs with JJs are better because they offer more mobility doesn't translate in-game. They poptarts don't win because they allow them to traverse terrain faster, they win because it allows them not to move but still use line of sight to their advantage.

#629 ATao

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:05 PM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

When will you learn that swinging the balance wildly every few month is a bad thing? MW4 had a stable balance for the first 2-3 years before ANY serious changes were introduced and this stability rocked. It allowed you to focus on honing your own skills, team tactics and coordination rather than adapting to new patches.

There's a good Multiplayer Game Balance writeup by David Sirlin at his website. Balance should not change that often. Give players enough time (at least 1-2 years) to figure out counters to current meta (our team already has two in active testing). Sligtly boost WEAK points and see what happens. Don't nerf strong ones unless they are truly gamebreaking (and HGN is not). That'll do magic.

Oh and maybe ask the top tier 12 team members for their opinions once in a while. We can be of a good assistance to you as top class testers. We play this game to it's limits and do know a thing or two of it as well.


As for the "problem" itself... It's not just HGN. Right now any JJ mech has an advantage over those without 'em depending on the map. Best example being Canyon where JJs truly shine. All this started after you introduced "hill slope nerf" and many mechs lost their ability to climb hills.

Now I'm not saying there's a need to revert that change. But we have this totally useless module "hill climb lalala". Why don't you give it some serious boost? Give those fatlases a chance to make some good climbs if they are using this module. I can guarantee that will bring some nice changes to the meta and HGNs won't be that prevalent anymore.


TL;DR: BOOST HILL CLIMB MODULE, DON'T F*** THE BALANCE AGAIN.

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 11 February 2014 - 01:01 AM.


#630 RickySpanish

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:11 PM

Being able to move in 3/3 instead of 2/3 axis of motion will always be a huge advantage. Even if the game eventually flat out prevents you from shooting while your feet are off the ground and shakes your cockpit like an arty strike, it will not be enough to knock jump jets from their pedestal. For example, try running a Mech without jump jets on Canyon. Exactly.

#631 Too Much Love

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:21 PM

View PostRyan Steel, on 10 February 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

So to answer your question, yes, I think it's unbalanced right now because all the alternatives are garbage in comparison.
True dat.

HGN is a better mech than all others. I like my HGN , but it nearly makes others useles, so I would like to use other mechs more even if the prcie would be HGN.

But I'm afraid that PGI would simply fail to nerf HGN properly. We will get the same HGN-only warfare, but with handicapped HGN.

The answer is simple: make tonnage limits for 4 men groups, 250 tonns for example. It will prevent the dominance of 4 HGN or 4 Victors and will give other mechs and tems a chance.

Edited by drunkblackstar, 10 February 2014 - 09:22 PM.


#632 Too Much Love

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:25 PM

View PostMavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

You get pulse large lasers with longer range, less heat, more damage and I guarantee you people will stop using PPCs and you'll see Pulse Large Lasers.
The boost to short range weapons should be significant and effective move to rebalance PPC-AC poptarts meta in the right direction.

#633 YueFei

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:35 PM

View Postdrunkblackstar, on 10 February 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

True dat.

HGN is a better mech than all others. I like my HGN , but it nearly makes others useles, so I would like to use other mechs more even if the prcie would be HGN.

But I'm afraid that PGI would simply fail to nerf HGN properly. We will get the same HGN-only warfare, but with handicapped HGN.

The answer is simple: make tonnage limits for 4 men groups, 250 tonns for example. It will prevent the dominance of 4 HGN or 4 Victors and will give other mechs and tems a chance.


I don't agree with tonnage limits. That's a lazy way out for the developers to weasel out of the stated design goals of role warfare.

The NFL doesn't impose team weight limits. They don't ban teams from putting 11 guys on the field who all weigh 350+ pounds. The sport is just designed in such a way that putting in 11 big men is not the optimal way to play on most downs.

To me, it's OK that a Highlander will smash my Hunchback to pieces. What's not OK is that on most maps and game modes, I don't have the option to disengage and go for a different objective. Sometimes you get the chance on large maps in Conquest mode. But look what they did with the cap points on Alpine for Conquest mode. It's ridiculous how all those bases are clustered together, devaluing speed.

#634 MavRCK

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 09:51 PM

View PostLysander Voidrunner, on 10 February 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:



The whole thing about people saying that mechs with JJs are better because they offer more mobility doesn't translate in-game. They poptarts don't win because they allow them to traverse terrain faster, they win because it allows them not to move but still use line of sight to their advantage.


I think you're missing the point...

JJ mechs get to a position and continue to use that position because mechs can't get to them.

It's like Ryan just said: it's unbalanced right now because all the alternatives are garbage in comparison

Good games with competitive followings such as Starcraft 2 and LoL do small nerfs and moderate buffs to achieve game balance - they rarely introduce new game mechanics.. and if they do, they do so at the END of the competitive season. Most importantly, they do regular small updates and balance tweaks on a consistent, predictable basis.

MWO does none of this.

Any wholesale changes to JJs will not affect the game because the alternatives are bad, bad and worse.

How long has the Awesome been the laughing stock of MWO?

(That's a rhetorical question.)

#635 Too Much Love

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:00 PM

View PostYueFei, on 10 February 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:


I don't agree with tonnage limits. That's a lazy way out for the developers to weasel out of the stated design goals of role warfare.

At least, they will bring some sense to the action. Now it's a game without a rules.

Why ppl will take Locust if they can take HGN? Only for fun in PUG games, but almost never in serious competitive matches.

The only reason for Locust and others like him is to cap a base, wich is much more stupid and lame than any tonnage limits.

You simply can't make 20 and 100 tonns mechs equally effective, so if ppl have a choice they will take assaults. I know, lights can be very effective too, but in general game is dominated by the jumping assaults.

Tonnage limitations is the only way to give some meaning to the existence of different classes of mechs.

Edited by drunkblackstar, 10 February 2014 - 10:01 PM.


#636 MavRCK

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:03 PM

View PostYueFei, on 10 February 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:


I don't agree with tonnage limits. That's a lazy way out for the developers to weasel out of the stated design goals of role warfare.

The NFL doesn't impose team weight limits. They don't ban teams from putting 11 guys on the field who all weigh 350+ pounds. The sport is just designed in such a way that putting in 11 big men is not the optimal way to play on most downs.

To me, it's OK that a Highlander will smash my Hunchback to pieces. What's not OK is that on most maps and game modes, I don't have the option to disengage and go for a different objective. Sometimes you get the chance on large maps in Conquest mode. But look what they did with the cap points on Alpine for Conquest mode. It's ridiculous how all those bases are clustered together, devaluing speed.


Brilliant.

View Postdrunkblackstar, on 10 February 2014 - 10:00 PM, said:

At least, they will bring some sense to the action. Now it's a game without a rules.

Why ppl will take Locust if they can take HGN? Only for fun in PUG games, but almost never in serious competitive matches.

The only reason for Locust and others like him is to cap a base, wich is much more stupid and lame than any tonnage limits.

You simply can't make 20 and 100 tonns mechs equally effective, so if ppl have a choice they will take assaults. I know, lights can be very effective too, but in general game is dominated by the jumping assaults.

Tonnage limitations is the only way to give some meaning to the existence of different classes of mechs.


You can make games match mech classes like they did before.. You can set games to be 3-3-3-3.. tonnage limits are lazy.. and ignore the issue of balance.

#637 MischiefSC

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

Don't nerf JJs.

Make hill climb module work very well.

Give mechs without JJs an extra module slot, to use for hill climbing or something else if they wish.

Nerf pinpoint damage. Hill-humping, peek and snipe, poptarting, it doesn't matter how you do it pinpoint long range damage is undeniably superior in every way to DOT. Thus all DOT weapons are inherently inferior. This is the basis of most the balance issues.

That and there is no brawling alternative. Without SRMs fixed (we need to accept they probably never will be) that means the poptart meta may just... jump less. Builds won't seriously change, tactics will change minimally and we'll still be right here.

#638 Too Much Love

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

View PostMavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

You can make games match mech classes like they did before.. You can set games to be 3-3-3-3.. tonnage limits are lazy.. and ignore the issue of balance.
Ignore the issue of balance? Suggest You to offer boxers get rid of weight limitations - 50 kg vs. 120 kg. for example - I would like to hear their reaction.

Single HGN can't change the course of the match, but 4 coordinated HGN do that, no matter what.

Instead of trying balancing Locust and Atlas, wich is nonsense par exellence, PGi should look at the core of the issue: tonnage differences and limits were the basis of BT from the very beginning. Ignoring that simple and obvious fact won't make this game better.

Edited by drunkblackstar, 11 February 2014 - 09:17 AM.


#639 MavRCK

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:25 PM

View Postdrunkblackstar, on 10 February 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Ignore the issue of balance? Suggest You to offer boxers get rid of weight limitations - 50 kg vs. 120 kg. for example - I'll would like to hear their reaction.

Single HGN can't change the course of the match, but 4 coordinated HGN do that, no matter what.

Instead of trying balancing Locust and Atlas, wich is nonsense par exellence, PGi should look at the core of the issue: tonnage differences and limits were the basis of BT from the very beginning. Ignoring that simple and obvious fact won't make this game better.


I think you should read all the commentary before.. it'll help put the single comment in context.

#640 Deathlike

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 11:19 PM

Tonnage limits isn't going to suddenly make the Awesome better than the Victor, or most heavies comparable to the Cataphract-3D... or make any medium be on the same level as the Shadowhawk (unless, you need particular specialization)... or even make the Locust "a competent light" vs even the Commando or Spider.

If bad mechs were actually a consideration (at least one over another in certain situations) instead of an afterthought (aka being generally useless or inferior), then we'd have some sort of balance. So many mechs just simply are balanced poorly, and get tagged appropriately as such.





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