1026 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

When you come in promising one thing and delivering another...

...heck, if this was a Kickstarter, I think you'd see people demanding refunds in droves. Heck, we -had- a good number of Founders do just that when it became obvious MWO was going to be a long,long,LONG drag to the promised CW content.

The more they deviate from what's promised, the smaller that long-term cashflow is going to become as their customers trust less and less of what comes down the line.

The "enemy" MWO has in the greatest numbers is itself. And that includes seeing stuff talked about two years ago with no sign of actual implementation in the game.

[Reno Blade]

Reno Blade enters the battlefield in his shining armor of faith.
- Laser hits, reflected by shining armor
- SRM miss, targeting disrupted by reflected laser
- ACs hit, shatter the armor to bits and pieces like a mirror
- PPC hit, burning the body instantly. No chance to twist
Reno Blade got killed by Balance

[Joseph Mallan]

Reno Blade, on 19 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Reno Blade enters the battlefield in his shining armor of faith.
- Laser hits, reflected by shining armor
- SRM miss, targeting disrupted by reflected laser
- ACs hit, shatter the armor to bits and pieces like a mirror
- PPC hit, burning the body instantly. No chance to twist
Reno Blade got killed by Balance

Except for the missile Nerf, that does sound like reflective armor!

[Iqfish]

[Victor Morson]

IqfishLP, on 19 February 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Did that Highlander try to fire 4 PPCs and now it's leg ammo is exploding?

[Roland]

Your Photoshop skills on on par with Paul's game balancing skills.

Edited by Roland, 19 February 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Reno Blade]

1 JJet in a Highlander = exploding ammo in the legs ! balancing done ^^

Edited by Reno Blade, 19 February 2014 - 03:52 PM.

[SoHxPaladin]

IqfishLP, on 19 February 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

dont care if he "kills the meta game" cuz it never existed, truly in any scope it could/should be, in the first place. if you refer to the ppc ac5 builds, then hell, they are just a build that work. though i will say, the omnimeching that has been allowed has bred this type of mech building and will continue till they get back to the roots.

TT works in this game, they just know that it doesn't make them as much money in the short bursts of time that they would like.

and since this is a business, they will keep "preying" on their consumer base till it goes away or a leadership change occurs.

[Leifanator]

Ah-HA!

Now I understand why it's so infuriating to browse these forums trying to find any amount of info from an official source (the layout combined with the devs posting all over the place). It's because when something like this gets posted, it's not on the front page and won't cause "as much" damage.

Seriously. Is this being run as a business or as someone's hobby? I only JUST re-installed MWO a couple weeks ago to see where abouts the game was at and I'm greeted with "Buy gold plated mechs for ridiculous prices!" and "I'm a self entitled developer and can say whatever I want on the forums."

Ya know what... Hawken has recently gone to steam so it's going to get a massive influx of new players AND with Titanfall coming out soon (and the hype around it), more people than ever are going to be looking into games with mechs in them. This is such a waste of potential it isn't even funny.

I've said it before, MWO has nailed the basics of how the mechs feel. Driving around and shooting and getting hit is AWESOME! But, BUT there is only so much time people are going to invest in this game if that's all they do. Yes you can build/customize mechs but the mechbay/loadout screen at the moment is sub-par at best.

I know this post will probably fall on deaf ears. I know I'm just one more person who's disappointed that MWO hasn't turned out how I thought it would. And I know that at the end of the day it's just a game. But I'll be damned if I at least didn't give feedback on what needs work to make it a better experience.

o7

[Skyfaller]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Just going back to the good old days of poking the dragon and running away.

Yes... JJs are being looked at and specifically the initial burst turn. And there are other Mechs on the firing range.

Honestly I think the problem is the heavy+ mechs that have jumpjets have too few jumpjets. They only end up equipping one since that is all they need to poptart.

All highlanders except the heavy metal have 3. The HM has 5. Yet, none of them need to equip more than 1 to be able to jump up high enough to poptart and equipping 2 or 3 is absurd since a mech that big on top of a building or hovering in midair longer than pop-tart needs is just a gigantic target. The Highlander Burial isnt in the game and never will be so more than 1 jet is not needed.

Then you have the issue of the bunny hopping to turn legs around faster. Its almost like moonwalking TRON-style. 90 degree ninja turns. Again, you just need one jet for this.


...but you can't nerf jets in general or you screw the mechs that really need them (like lights and mediums).


So... why not change the jets into :

1- A fout- tier jet system, each jet size having different performance rules.

Light Jets: For light. These jets have very strong initial thrust (2x what they have now) and the 'initial thrust' can be re-used in mid-flight every 3 seconds which only changes vector weakly (if you turn torso 90 degrees to a side and do initial thrust again you merely end up changing vector 45 degrees). Light mechs are designed for scouting under speed and as such their leg-damage drop altitude should be much more forgiving (say, 3x what it is now, which should give it about 25% more height before leg damage than an assault mech...assault mechs for some weird reason can drop from high cliffs with no leg damage!). Light Jets are 0.5 tons and cost 1 slot.

Medium Jets: For medium mechs. Same as light jets except they have only 1.5x the fall height bonus and 1.2 the initial thrust bonus. Med Jets are 1 ton and cost 1 slot.

Heavy Jets: For heavy mechs. These jets have NO initial thrust and have 25% slower fuel consumption rate. These jets are about 50% less powerful than they are currently. This means heavy mechs can use them to cushion falls, thrust to hover for a brief amount of time yet not achieving the hover quickly (poptart) since it takes nearly 3x the time it currently does to get them climbing. When mechs using these jets are in the air they cannot twist their legs. This is a balancing act vs the very mobile, heavily armed heavy jet-mechs using the leg-turning to bunny hop. Heavy Jets are 1.5 tons and cost 1 slot.

Siege Jets: For Assault mechs. Like the heavy jets, the Siege jets have no initial thrust. They consume fuel 50% slowed than they do now and like the Heavy Jets, they are 50% less powerful than they are now. Unlike Heavy Mechs however, the Siege Jets mechs cannot twist their TORSO while in mid-air since the jets are in the torso. This is a balancing act vs poptarting (moving torso in midair to aim...only arm-mechs would be poptarting but only with arm weapons...which require even longer hovering time & exposure to incoming fire). Siege jets cost 3 tons and occupy 2 slots.

Global changes to Jets:

1- The number of jets in a mech determines its fuel capacity. Equipping just 1 jet will not do anything for a siege or heavy mech and it will barely push a light or medium higher than its knees.

2- Jets under 25% fuel will generate weapon heat equivalent to a small laser per jet. (helps prevents poptarting/bunnyhopping)

3- Jets take 2x the time to re-fuel to full than they do now.

4- Jets active have the penalty of giving the mech a TAG-like missile lock bonus on themselves. They're a massive heat source so the targeting computers on the missiles lock faster.

5- Weapon Heat cooling is stopped while jets are active.

[Reno Blade]

Skyfaller, on 19 February 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

Honestly I think the problem is the heavy+ mechs that have jumpjets have too few jumpjets. They only end up equipping one since that is all they need to poptart.

All highlanders except the heavy metal have 3. The HM has 5. Yet, none of them need to equip more than 1 to be able to jump up high enough to poptart and equipping 2 or 3 is absurd since a mech that big on top of a building or hovering in midair longer than pop-tart needs is just a gigantic target. The Highlander Burial isnt in the game and never will be so more than 1 jet is not needed.

Then you have the issue of the bunny hopping to turn legs around faster. Its almost like moonwalking TRON-style. 90 degree ninja turns. Again, you just need one jet for this.


...but you can't nerf jets in general or you screw the mechs that really need them (like lights and mediums).


So... why not change the jets into :

1- A fout- tier jet system, each jet size having different performance rules.

Light Jets: For light. These jets have very strong initial thrust (2x what they have now) and the 'initial thrust' can be re-used in mid-flight every 3 seconds which only changes vector weakly (if you turn torso 90 degrees to a side and do initial thrust again you merely end up changing vector 45 degrees). Light mechs are designed for scouting under speed and as such their leg-damage drop altitude should be much more forgiving (say, 3x what it is now, which should give it about 25% more height before leg damage than an assault mech...assault mechs for some weird reason can drop from high cliffs with no leg damage!). Light Jets are 0.5 tons and cost 1 slot.

Medium Jets: For medium mechs. Same as light jets except they have only 1.5x the fall height bonus and 1.2 the initial thrust bonus. Med Jets are 1 ton and cost 1 slot.

Heavy Jets: For heavy mechs. These jets have NO initial thrust and have 25% slower fuel consumption rate. These jets are about 50% less powerful than they are currently. This means heavy mechs can use them to cushion falls, thrust to hover for a brief amount of time yet not achieving the hover quickly (poptart) since it takes nearly 3x the time it currently does to get them climbing. When mechs using these jets are in the air they cannot twist their legs. This is a balancing act vs the very mobile, heavily armed heavy jet-mechs using the leg-turning to bunny hop. Heavy Jets are 1.5 tons and cost 1 slot.

Siege Jets: For Assault mechs. Like the heavy jets, the Siege jets have no initial thrust. They consume fuel 50% slowed than they do now and like the Heavy Jets, they are 50% less powerful than they are now. Unlike Heavy Mechs however, the Siege Jets mechs cannot twist their TORSO while in mid-air since the jets are in the torso. This is a balancing act vs poptarting (moving torso in midair to aim...only arm-mechs would be poptarting but only with arm weapons...which require even longer hovering time & exposure to incoming fire). Siege jets cost 3 tons and occupy 2 slots.

Global changes to Jets:

1- The number of jets in a mech determines its fuel capacity. Equipping just 1 jet will not do anything for a siege or heavy mech and it will barely push a light or medium higher than its knees.

2- Jets under 25% fuel will generate weapon heat equivalent to a small laser per jet. (helps prevents poptarting/bunnyhopping)

3- Jets take 2x the time to re-fuel to full than they do now.

4- Jets active have the penalty of giving the mech a TAG-like missile lock bonus on themselves. They're a massive heat source so the targeting computers on the missiles lock faster.

5- Weapon Heat cooling is stopped while jets are active.

Nice Ideas.

I posted this on page12 with kinda similar direction:

Quote

I thought about possible numbers for the JJ fuel and speed.
currently the fuel is independent of number of JJs as is the regeneration, only the thrust seems better, right?
With aiming for between 3 and 5 JJ as the norm, here are my values for how I imagine a good solution.

New JJ:
Each new JJ gives + 10% more fuel and 20% more reload speed, but the lower number of JJs will be less than what we have now.

Fuel of 1 new JJ = about 70% of fuel of 1 old JJ
Reload of 1 new JJ = about 40% of reload speed of 1 old JJ

Fuel of 2 new JJ = 80% fuel
Reload of 2 new JJ = 60% reload speed

Fuel of 3 new JJ = 90% fuel
Reload of 3 new JJ = 80% reload speed.

Fuel of 4 new JJ = 100% fuel
Reload of 4 new JJ = 100% reload speed.

Fuel of 5 new JJ = 110% fuel
Reload of 5 new JJ = 120% reload speed.

For a 12JJ spider:
Fuel of 12 JJ = 180% fuel
Reload of 12 JJ = 280% reload speed.
The 12JJ Spider would have nearly double the fuel and reloads about tripple as of now, but because of the larger fuel tank, it would be only slightly faster overall.

As you can see, 4 JJ would be what we have now, but some mechs like the HGN and Vic don't have more than 3 JJ slots so they will jump a little less even with 3/3 JJs. (just at 90% efficiency)



Oh, we can even change the turn speed of JJ by similar % as the numbers above. (180% for a spider might be too much turn speed FUN, but who knows)
That way, you can turn faster with more JJ, but are not super agile with 1 JJ.
That would also make certain mechs/variants act very differently.

[wanderer]

*sighs*

The problems with jets are a helluva lot simpler to fix than the complex solutions people keep tossing up here. Hell, PGI hosed it by strapping jet limits on things without actually having a properly working jump jet system to begin with.

Just think of jump jets as an alternate movement "engine" for the 'Mech, people. You go airborne, your mobility is now based on your jets. All of it. Twist speed, turn speed, movement (equal to "walking speed" on the ground). One jet = your 'Mech's tonnage in "engine rating", and a 'Mech can now fit jets equal to it's real engine/'Mech tonnage, rounded down. You -really- want to be cruel, have designs that can't carry a full jet complement, like the Shadow Hawk.

Actually mounting a full bank of jets on a 'Mech will matter- as it should have from the start - and 'Mechs will actually jump much closer to the capacity they can in TT. Problem solved, in a straightforward, logical manner.

[Wintersdark]

wanderer, on 20 February 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

*sighs*

The problems with jets are a helluva lot simpler to fix than the complex solutions people keep tossing up here. Hell, PGI hosed it by strapping jet limits on things without actually having a properly working jump jet system to begin with.

Just think of jump jets as an alternate movement "engine" for the 'Mech, people. You go airborne, your mobility is now based on your jets. All of it. Twist speed, turn speed, movement (equal to "walking speed" on the ground). One jet = your 'Mech's tonnage in "engine rating", and a 'Mech can now fit jets equal to it's real engine/'Mech tonnage, rounded down. You -really- want to be cruel, have designs that can't carry a full jet complement, like the Shadow Hawk.

Actually mounting a full bank of jets on a 'Mech will matter- as it should have from the start - and 'Mechs will actually jump much closer to the capacity they can in TT. Problem solved, in a straightforward, logical manner.

Wanderer, for a Legendary Founder, you sure seem new here.

Your solution is far to clean and simple; it has literally no chance of being considered. It needs more if's, but's, and opaque math that normal players will never know.

[Mechteric]

wanderer, on 20 February 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

*sighs*

The problems with jets are a helluva lot simpler to fix than the complex solutions people keep tossing up here. Hell, PGI hosed it by strapping jet limits on things without actually having a properly working jump jet system to begin with.

Just think of jump jets as an alternate movement "engine" for the 'Mech, people. You go airborne, your mobility is now based on your jets. All of it. Twist speed, turn speed, movement (equal to "walking speed" on the ground). One jet = your 'Mech's tonnage in "engine rating", and a 'Mech can now fit jets equal to it's real engine/'Mech tonnage, rounded down. You -really- want to be cruel, have designs that can't carry a full jet complement, like the Shadow Hawk.

Actually mounting a full bank of jets on a 'Mech will matter- as it should have from the start - and 'Mechs will actually jump much closer to the capacity they can in TT. Problem solved, in a straightforward, logical manner.

Brilliant! Make the current jump turning rate be only if you have max jets, but scale it down for every jet fewer.

I don't think it fixes all problems with jumping but it seems like an easy and reasonable stepping stone!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 February 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Malzel]

I'm not a programmer, but that doesn't sound like a "simple" fix from a coding perspective.

[dwwolf]

Easiest fix : Add shakeshake to the descent phase of flight.

[wanderer]

If you're on the ground, your movement, turn speed, and twist speed are based off engine rating/tonnage in MWO.

The only difference here is if 'Mech = not on ground, then movement, turn speed, and twist speed are based off your number of jets instead. Surely MWO's code can tell when a 'Mech is off the ground- how else does it figure you're falling to take damage from same? Movement modifier code is already in the game for when a 'Mech loses a leg, as well. This simply adds a third possible calculation.

A 'Mech can either 1) be on the ground (normal engine vs tonnage calculations) , 2) legged and on the ground (the usual speed restrictions), 3) airborne (# of functional jets x Mech tonnage = effective "engine rating", ignores legging penalty).

Edit add: And here, so it isn't lost in the sea of trollery:

http://mwomercs.com/...03#entry3166903

Edited by wanderer, 20 February 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[FactorlanP]

Malzel, on 20 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

I'm not a programmer, but that doesn't sound like a "simple" fix from a coding perspective.

Well... At some point the game maker has to make the game. Not every mechanic fix should have to be a super easy thing to code.

It is up to PGI to do what is necessary to make a fun game. If that necessary task happens to be complicated, I guess they just need to suck it up, put on their big girl panties, and make it happen.

It's make the game fun, or go out of business.

[Mechteric]

Malzel, on 20 February 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

I'm not a programmer, but that doesn't sound like a "simple" fix from a coding perspective.

I am a programmer. You're right in that its possible it may not be easy, it depends on the code that governs it and how it was written. For all we know it might be as easy as changing:

turnRate=chassisTurnRate + (isJumping ? jumpTurnRate : 0);

to :

turnRate=chassisTurnRate + (isJumping ? (jumpTurnRate * numJets/maxJets) : 0);

or for jet only consideration to slow it down significantly:

turnRate=(isJumping ? (jumpTurnRate * numJets/maxJets) : chassisTurnRate);

Or something entirely more complex. But in all likelihood not near as complex as implementation of ghost heat, for example.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 February 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[wanderer]

You'll notice that the second you go airborne, MWO alters movement states radically as it is. Speed drops, turn rate increases massively, etc.

The basis for something like my changes already exists in the coding.