87 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Lightfoot, on 11 February 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

This is why I am not buying any Clan mech-pak. MWO's Clan mechs will have all the restrictions of Omnimechs without having any omni capability, because PGI will be placing regular hardpoints into the omni-pods instead of omni-hardpoints.

It's kind of the old shell game. LOOK! OMNI-MECHS!!! Except they actually have more restrictions than non-omnimechs without getting any Omni-slots for carrying those restrictions.

And the reason this has to be done is because PGI has already had to heavily nerf Inner Sphere tech which is absurd. If you have ever played any earlier MechWarrior game you know Inner Sphere 3050 tech is pre-nerfed, except for being a little cooler due to it's weakness.

Also, nerfing all weapons in MechWarrior just lessens the need to use Mechlab or make new Mech purchases and their various purchasable items. You really want to keep Mechlab operations as deep as possible for the questing/lore element it brings and the additional sales it generates.





.

IS tech is not nerfed.

You clearly did not read into david bradley's post, so here, i'll link it for you. http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 21 February 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Butane9000, on 10 February 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Where can you find those tables?

Sorry, I usually don't look back at my previous posts. You can find any record sheet at the battle tech engineer record sheet database: http://bte.battletechengineer.com/

If you search for "Daishi," for example, you will get a list of every Daishi variant that also lists the year they were introduced. If you click the MegaMek icon to the far right of each variant listed, it will go the spec page for that Mech Variant, and on that page you can click the PDF link for each Mech.

[Hillslam]

It has now been scientifically proven that clan mechwarriors are genetically engineered super-whiners.

[Craig Steele]

On the whole hand / arm actuator thing retarding ability to track targets.

Does anyone know for sure if maybe the torso turn rates are higher to compensate? Maybe via the 'characteristics' adding up?

That would probably be an easy fix IF it is an issue.

Redundant point probably cause those details aren't released but it might be something PGI are already across?

[Sephlock]

Craig Steele, on 11 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

On the whole hand / arm actuator thing retarding ability to track targets.

Does anyone know for sure if maybe the torso turn rates are higher to compensate? Maybe via the 'characteristics' adding up?

That would probably be an easy fix IF it is an issue.

Redundant point probably cause those details aren't released but it might be something PGI are already across?

Insert cynical comment here. Something around the lines of "you'll learn".

[Craig Steele]

Sephlock, on 11 February 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Insert cynical comment here. Something around the lines of "you'll learn".

lol, ok so to subtle maybe?

I'll try more direct.

Is there any point complaining about one small slice of the clan technology when PGI have quite clearly said and demonstrated that Clan tech is going to be an amalgamation of positive and negative aspects limited to the Omni mech Chassis which in total, will be similar to IS tech in terms of game balance with a Clan feel.

[Dirty Old Man]

PGI has the following marketing screwups to recover from

1) Selling something by not saying anything about the product..... just the product wrappings are shown with nothing about what the hell a cusomer is paying for ....

2) Wasting already precious time on "GOLD COLOR" collectibles where we AGAIN dont know what the "FXXX" we are paying for.... (lawsuit on misrepresentation of product just waiting to happen)

3) THEY ARE LATE.... LATE.... LATE..... WAY WAY PASS THEIR Deliverables..... LATE????!!!!!

Enuff said... so no point whining until they maturely state what the devil they are trying to sell... dont know??!! dont pay just like me as a smart consumer... Paid already???? ask for a refund.....Dont want to refund? Your bloody wallet funeral...

[pbiggz]

Dirty Old Man, on 12 February 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

3) THEY ARE LATE....

This is the only problem that is a real problem. Other things, like the clan pack, are not marketing blunders. Other F2P titles do it much worse than PGI, so count your blessings.

[Sephlock]

I just want to be able to alpha strike DISINTEGRATE Jenners again .

[Khobai]

Im not buying clan pack until we know for sure how clan weapons will work.

If theyre really doing something this stupid I likely never will buy a clan pack. The last thing this game needs is more bad game mechanics to bandaid other bad game mechanics.

IMO PGI needs to blow away the entire heat system and completely redo heat and weapon balance from scratch before they even think about implementing clan tech.

[Fut]

Khobai, on 12 February 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

IMO PGI needs to blow away the entire heat system and completely redo heat and weapon balance from scratch before they even think about implementing clan tech.

Pretty much, yeah.

[AlmightyAeng]

Craig Steele, on 11 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

On the whole hand / arm actuator thing retarding ability to track targets.

Does anyone know for sure if maybe the torso turn rates are higher to compensate? Maybe via the 'characteristics' adding up?

That would probably be an easy fix IF it is an issue.

Redundant point probably cause those details aren't released but it might be something PGI are already across?

Another question next to this might be "On a jagermech, which has NO horizontal arm movement, is firing multiple large AC's with decent targeting an issue?"

I'd say no...nor will it be on the larger 'mechs.

[Roadkill]

The Dire Wolf can easily carry a pair of CUAC/20 and a pair of CUAC/10 even using PGI's strange pod implementation, provided that the Prime and B variants are both available. That's a devastating build even with Ghost Heat - just don't fire both -20s at the same time.

80 damage alpha every 2.5 seconds. GGCLOSE Mr. Atlas.

[Jacmac]

TELEFORCE, on 08 February 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Maybe they'll give the UAC/20 (and maybe the UAC/10) some harsh heat treatment.

Maybe? It will be a ghost heat nightmare...

[Lightfoot]

pbiggz, on 11 February 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

IS tech is not nerfed.

You clearly did not read into david bradley's post, so here, i'll link it for you. http://mwomercs.com/...d-construction/

Now shut the hell up.

"Based solely upon canon hardpoints, some OmniPods are outright better than others.

For example, the right arm of the Mad Cat’s Prime configuration has 2 energy hardpoints while the right arm of the Mad Cat’s A configuration has 1 Energy hardpoint. Based on this alone, this makes the Prime configuration’s OmniPod the straight out better choice.
To balance this out, each OmniPod can be given its own set of quirks that will apply to any 'Mech that has it equipped."


I think you are the one who didn't read the post, piggz. They are clearly saying that the Hardpoints in the Omnipods are set by them as Energy, Ballistics, or Missiles. So they are not Omni hardpoints, they are the same as Inner Sphere mechs but with alot more restrictions such as size, quirks, no engine adjustments, no more than 10 heatsinks in an engine and no changing to double heatsinks if the default is singles, and on and on.

So that is actually an inferior setup than what Inner Sphere has as far as adaptability. So it's kind of a farce to call them omnimechs when the Inner Sphere mechs are in reality more Omni than the Clan mechs are. The only way Clan mechs would be omnimechs with this setup is if they had omni-hardpoints, but that ruins the point of sale for the mechs. MWO's omnimechs need more flexibility than what is proposed. What, I am not sure, maybe Engine heatsinks that work the same as Inner Sphere. Clan tech is hotter than Inner Sphere. Anyway, the proposal for Clan omnimechs in MWO reads like an every which way you can nerf list to me.

The forum is for discussion problems that we perceive before they get hardwired into the game like Ghost Heat, DHS 1.4, Gauss desyncs from first person shooters, and the rest of the Inner Sphere nerfs. Thing is Clan tech makes IS tech look like scrap from a junk-heap and that is the real problem that is driving the development of PGI's Omnimechs. (imho)

Edited by Lightfoot, 12 February 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Lightfoot, on 12 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

"Based solely upon canon hardpoints, some OmniPods are outright better than others.

For example, the right arm of the Mad Cat’s Prime configuration has 2 energy hardpoints while the right arm of the Mad Cat’s A configuration has 1 Energy hardpoint. Based on this alone, this makes the Prime configuration’s OmniPod the straight out better choice.
To balance this out, each OmniPod can be given its own set of quirks that will apply to any 'Mech that has it equipped."


I think you are the one who didn't read the post, piggz. They are clearly saying that the Hardpoints in the Omnipods are set by them as Energy, Ballistics, or Missiles. So they are not Omni hardpoints, they are the same as Inner Sphere mechs but with alot more restrictions such as size, quirks, no engine adjustments, no more than 10 heatsinks in an engine and no changing to double heatsinks if the default is singles (1), and on and on.

So that is actually an inferior setup than what Inner Sphere has as far as adaptability (2). So it's kind of a farce to call them omnimechs when the Inner Sphere are in reality more Omni than the Clan mechs are. The only way Clan mechs would be omnimechs with this setup is if they had omni-hardpoints, but that ruins the point of sale for the mechs.

This forum is for discussion problems that we perceive (3) before they get hardwired into the game like Ghost Heat, DHS 1.4, Gauss desyncs from first person shooters, and the rest of the Inner Sphere nerfs. Thing is Clan tech makes IS tech look like scrap from a junk-heap and that is the real problem that is driving the development of PGI's Omnimechs.

(1) ummm, no? Hard points are in the Pod yes, as are (in some mechs) some fixed slots along with the quirks which add up to the mechs characteristics. So that 1 energy hard point Pod you talk about might have additional arm speed which for some players, would be desireable for their style over the 2 energy hardpoints. So the Omni system provides MORE options for a player to design a mech to his style.

You cannot change the type of heat sinks but you can add to them. Heast sinks will still be in engine at base level (including extra's to engine capacity) but if you want more then yes, it costs Pod usage, exactly as per the canon. They also use less crit slots (ie, 2 each)

(2) See above, Omni's provide more fexibility for pilot preference. Like missile boats, load up pods with only missile hardpoints in all locations and take 10 launchers? Prefer to have SSRM's in the torso and PPC's in the arm, reconfig your Omni's. Prefer LRM's in the arms and Pulse lasers in the torso, Reconfigure your Pods. It's hard to understand why anyone would think this is 'more' restrictive.

(3) Agreed, but I also think's it's hard to discuss the overall strengths and weaknesses of Clan tech before we know all the details. On the surface it looks like a lot more flexibility for a pilot to tailor his style. The quirks will be interesting as they seem to be a key balancing mechanism for PGI atm and there is not a lot of info on those.

[Xenoid]

Sephlock, on 07 February 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

I approve this message.

[Lightfoot]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

(1) ummm, no? Hard points are in the Pod yes, as are (in some mechs) some fixed slots along with the quirks which add up to the mechs characteristics. So that 1 energy hard point Pod you talk about might have additional arm speed which for some players, would be desireable for their style over the 2 energy hardpoints. So the Omni system provides MORE options for a player to design a mech to his style.

You cannot change the type of heat sinks but you can add to them. Heast sinks will still be in engine at base level (including extra's to engine capacity) but if you want more then yes, it costs Pod usage, exactly as per the canon. They also use less crit slots (ie, 2 each)

(2) See above, Omni's provide more fexibility for pilot preference. Like missile boats, load up pods with only missile hardpoints in all locations and take 10 launchers? Prefer to have SSRM's in the torso and PPC's in the arm, reconfig your Omni's. Prefer LRM's in the arms and Pulse lasers in the torso, Reconfigure your Pods. It's hard to understand why anyone would think this is 'more' restrictive.

(3) Agreed, but I also think's it's hard to discuss the overall strengths and weaknesses of Clan tech before we know all the details. On the surface it looks like a lot more flexibility for a pilot to tailor his style. The quirks will be interesting as they seem to be a key balancing mechanism for PGI atm and there is not a lot of info on those.

(1.) No, you are assuming there will be omni-pods with the hardpoints you want to make that missile-boat you suggest, but there won't be. You will most likely get most omni-pods loaded up with hardpoints for hot ER Energy weapons that can't be used because you can't place those 5-6 heatsinks in those Clan XL engines. Clan DHS are only 2 crits so that sounds okay, but it's really reducing Clan DHS to the value of Inner Sphere DHS. So the possible gains for Omnimechs, slotting any weapon, just won't be there.

2xUAC20's is a good example. PGI can't allow an Assault with 2xUAC20 because it would break the game, but Clan UAC20 are only 8 criticals and could actually be slotted anywhere, but PGI will just place fixed critical slots for heatsinks, endo steel, and armor and you will see that 2xUAC20's will not be possible on Heavy and Assault class mechs.

Now I am fine with all that, but they are not Omnimechs so why do they deserve all the nerf restrictions? My point is they need more flexibility than Battletech rules because they are given fixed hardpoint in their supposed omnipods. Such as changing internals, or engine size, or armor type.

I just don't want MWO's Clan Omnimechs to be virtually excluded from Mechlab functions which is where they are headed. And only as an expedience that was never deemed necessary for Inner Sphere mechs which slot 2xAC20's into machine gun hardpoints and this is no problem.

[Craig Steele]

Lightfoot, on 12 February 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

(1.) No, you are assuming there will be omni-pods with the hardpoints you want to make that missile-boat you suggest, but there won't be. You will most likely get most omni-pods loaded up with hardpoints for hot ER Energy weapons that can't be used because you can't place those 5-6 heatsinks in those Clan XL engines. Clan DHS are only 2 crits so that sounds okay, but it's really reducing Clan DHS to the value of Inner Sphere DHS. So the possible gains for Omnimechs, slotting any weapon, just won't be there.

2xUAC20's is a good example. PGI can't allow an Assault with 2xUAC20 because it would break the game, but Clan UAC20 are only 8 criticals and could actually be slotted anywhere, but PGI will just place fixed critical slots for heatsinks, endo steel, and armor and you will see that 2xUAC20's will not be possible on Heavy and Assault class mechs.

Now I am fine with all that, but they are not Omnimechs so why do they deserve all the nerf restrictions? My point is they need more flexibility than Battletech rules because they are given fixed hardpoint in their supposed omnipods. Such as changing internals, or engine size, or armor type.

I just don't want MWO's Clan Omnimechs to be virtually excluded from Mechlab functions which is where they are headed. And only as an expedience that was never deemed necessary for Inner Sphere mechs which slot 2xAC20's into machine gun hardpoints and this is no problem.

And you're assuming they don't. Fact is we don't know but yes for the purposes of making an example I used the number 10. It might be 8, the principle is still the same though which is you CAN exchange pods to maximise a particular type hardpoint if that suits your playstyle and the chassis.

The Pods will refect punlished variants, they have said as much already. So there will be a capability of having a Daishi with 6 ballistic hardpoints. (one each arm, 4 in one torso). Are people going to complain because its not 2 in each torso? Probably the min maxes will but it is what it is.

On DHS, ofc its a good thing. Take the Madcat, runs 15 DHS, a 375 engine will soak them all up, no crits required. Add one and it comes off your pod space. EXACTLY THE SAME as IS except its 2 slots not 3. There will be a handful of mechs with 10 DHS in standard form and bigger engines and tbh they are all lights / mediums so you're really making a mountain out a molehill here. With ES and FF being only 7 crits each there is plenty of room in the chassis except the most extreme of min maxing exercises.

The 'fixed' slots will more than likely be the ones published in canon so it won't be just to make your day difficult. Why would they want to redesign a mechanic like that unless it has a dramtic impact on game balance. Thats unlikely across multiple mech chassis but lets say it is true, isn't it a good thing they are balancing the game with that sort of mechanic?

Haven't seen anything about dual UAC 20's breaking the game. In fact, haven't seen anything about UAC20's full stop. What is your source here?

It seems to me that a lot of people are crying about nerf's to Omni mechs without understanding one of the key factors, that Clan tech is a package solution. Crying about nerfs because they're nerf's without understanding or appreciating the buffs that come with it is just making an argument for an unblanced mech / Chassis.

[Sephlock]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

It seems to me that a lot of people are crying about nerf's to Omni mechs without understanding one of the key factors, that Clan tech is a package solution. Crying about nerfs because they're nerf's without understanding or appreciating the buffs that come with it is just making an argument for an unblanced mech / Chassis.

Well we've only really heard about what they're nerfing, and it seems that the reason is because there are many "buffs" (advantages over IS tech) that are more or less unchangeable given PGI's policies (tonnage, etc). What we've gotten so far is an incomplete (and subject to change) list of things to balance out those advantages- hence, nerfs.

What side buffs do you think the clans are going to get, keeping in mind past efforts at balancing?