31 replies to this topic

[Charles Seneca]

1. Streaks. They do 2.5 damage per missile compared to srms that do 2. Streaks arguably take less skill to use than srms yet do 25% more damage. Clearly this is imbalanced which is why the devs are having problems with implementing streak 4 & 6.

Solution: reduce streak missile damage to 1.5. Simple. Suddenly streak 4 & 6 become far less of a problem to implement and streaks become more in line with srms.

2. Armour. Which is to say lack of it. Armour is currently 2x TT values which was necessary due to the fact that weapons in MWO fire more than once/10 secs. But was 2x TT enough?? NO!
Weapons fire rate is far in excess of their TT values. The slowest (ppcs for e.g) fire 2.5 times per 10 seconds - which alone would mean armour needs a 25% boost over current values.

Clearly there is a huge imbalance here and when other weapons are factored in the difference between weapon fire rate and the measly 2x extra armour that mechs received becomes even more obvious.

Add the ability of pilots to target components rather than hitting them at random and again we have severe imbalance with regards to weapon damage v armour values.

A good starting point would be to increase armour across the board by 100% (with the appropriate ammo/ton increase).

A "side effect" of this would be to make close range mechs more viable by giving them more of an armour "buffer" to close the distance to long range mechs without being blown apart or severely damaged to the extent that they are currently.

The game would also become far more interesting by helping to alleviate the long range pop-tarting, incredibly boring, sniper wars which dominates the competitive game atm.

Two simple things which could drastically improve the game with little coding time on the part of the devs.

Edited by Charles Seneca, 06 February 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Noesis]

Boosting armour further whilst pinpoint accuracy is limited to certain weapon sets would make them more valuable to use as they can hit locations with more consistency and focus on one area than having damage spread out over a Mech but with overall increased values.

You would in effect create a bigger problem with some of the issues you mention as a result.

[Khobai]

We need slower weapon cool downs instead of more armor. The fast weapon cool downs make energy weapons suck and ballistics dominant.

And if pgi does go with increasing armor it's actually better to increase internal structure instead.

Edited by Khobai, 06 February 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Streak damage is +25% greater than SRM2s because the cool down is 40% greater (3.5s vs 2.5s) than the SRM2. Always helpful to know the specifics.

[Charles Seneca]

Noesis your argument makes no sense as what you have described is the current situation anyway - pinpoint weapons are more valuable and always will be regardless of armour value. My solution would not make the situation any worse then it already is.

Khobai - I totally agree with you. Weapon cooldown increase would be a viable alternative. I don't see why increasing internal structure would necessarily be preferable to increasing armour though, although a combination of both would also be effective.

Trauglodyte - true, but given that srms require a certain amout of skill but streaks are almost point and click...
a damage decrease would not be unfair. 1.5 was just an example btw.

Edited by Charles Seneca, 06 February 2014 - 08:49 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I think Streaks are fine as they are now. Sure, you don't have to aim them at all, but the counterpoint to that is that you can't aim them even if you wanted to. You can't decide which sections your missiles will go to, and it's not like you'll get perfect accuracy with them either, as sometimes they run into obstacles or AMS. They're only a serious threat to lights and smaller mediums when boated.

What needs to happen is SRMs need to be better. SRMs are terrible at the moment due to anemic damage and hit registration issues. The devs hit it too hard with the nerf bat after someone discovered the splash-damage issue. I'm not sure why they don't just remove splash damage from them altogether.


As for pinpoint damage, the solution is to make reliable pinpoint damage more difficult, not to increase health across the board. Sure the poptart Trylanders will piss and moan, but they've had close to a year of dominating matches, and that's plenty long enough.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 06 February 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Andross Deverow]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

1. Streaks. They do 2.5 damage per missile compared to srms that do 2. Streaks arguably take less skill to use than srms yet do 25% more damage. Clearly this is imbalanced which is why the devs are having problems with implementing streak 4 & 6.

Solution: reduce streak missile damage to 1.5. Simple. Suddenly streak 4 & 6 become far less of a problem to implement and streaks become more in line with srms.

Must be a light pilot eh? Sure..... go ahead... ask them to take away the only weapon that actually has a chance of helping heavier mechs discourage light mechs from leg humping them and coring them outright. Streaks are fine as is they dont need to be addressed. In all actuality regular srm's should get a damage buff as for now they just plain suck with poor hit detection.

Regards

[Noesis]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Noesis your argument makes no sense as what you have described is the current situation anyway - pinpoint weapons are more valuable and always will be regardless of armour value. My solution would not make the situation any worse then it already is.

Really, so the applied focus fire to specific locations isn't helpful in MWO?

A useful way ideally to bring a Mech down fast of course. You add more armour then it takes more weapons strikes in theory to bring a Mech down, so surely from an efficiency point of view you would then be more bothered about minimising the number of shots used by focusing fire at a more specific point. Hence pinpoint accuracy becomes more valuable.

[Charles Seneca]

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Must be a light pilot eh? Sure..... go ahead... ask them to take away the only weapon...

You couldn't be more wrong and who mentioned taking anything away? Streak2s are simply overpowered compared to srm2s when damage and ease of use are taken into account.

When Streak 4 & 6 are introduced they will still provide more firepower than current streak2s even @ 1.5 damage per missile (which was just a suggestion). At the current 2.5 damage per missile, streak 4 and 6 will simply be waaay too overpowered - which the devs have acknowledged as a problem.

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Really, so the applied focus fire to specific locations isn't helpful in MWO?

Did you read my post or just make up what you think it said?

Edited by Charles Seneca, 06 February 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[LastPaladin]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

1. Streaks. They do 2.5 damage per missile compared to srms that do 2. Streaks arguably take less skill to use than srms yet do 25% more damage. Clearly this is imbalanced which is why the devs are having problems with implementing streak 4 & 6.

Solution: reduce streak missile damage to 1.5. Simple. Suddenly streak 4 & 6 become far less of a problem to implement and streaks become more in line with srms.

There is a reason streak damage was increased, and it was because the devs changed the way streaks target. They no longer home in on the vital sections of the mech, but randomly target different areas of the mech, like the limbs. This gives them a built-in effective damage reduction, since their damage is not just spread, but spread randomly, and often away from the areas you most want to target.

So, if you reduce their damage to even less than regular SRMs, then they would be nerfed into uselessness. You wouldn't even be able to kill a locust with them. Maybe you are a locust pilot and that is what you want, but I'd rather keep them as they are.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 06 February 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

We need slower weapon cool downs instead of more armor. The fast weapon cool downs make energy weapons suck and ballistics dominant.

And if pgi does go with increasing armor it's actually better to increase internal structure instead.

Weapon cyclic increased from TT by 2.5 times on average,
Heat dissipation went from PART of a 10 second turn to vent to using all of it?

[LastPaladin]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Streak2s are simply overpowered compared to srm2s when damage and ease of use are taken into account.

I disagree, SRM2s have several advantages over streaks that need to be taken into account, and which you have neglected to mention:
- Faster recycle time (higher DPS)
- No lock-on time (higher DPS)
- No need to carry Beagle/ECM/Tag/Artemis in order to target shielded mechs and acquire locks faster (more free tonnage for engine/ammo/heat sinks/armor/other weapons)
- Can be aimed at specific sections (allows you to get kills much faster if you can aim well, since you can target the weak points)
- Cannot be completely disabled by multiple ECM mechs, while streak launchers can (more reliability)

Of course, there are downsides to using SRM2s also, like you will have to practice aiming them more, and you will still miss more shots entirely, but you must take into account both the advantages and disadvantages, and not only focus on the disadvantages.

[SI The Joker]

I think you're just upset that your Locust got killed in 3 salvos of SSRMs by a streak mech.

SSRMS are actually one of the weapons I think is fine.

As for Armor... that's fine as well.

You're partially right though... not much skill required to shoot streaks... or any weapon for that matter. The skill in this game comes in piloting and maneuverability NOT so much your shooting "skill". Shooting "skill" these days is mostly jumping up & firing at the top of the arc... rinse & repeat. How that constitutes skill completely baffles me.

Just my opinion, though.

[Noesis]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Did you read my post or just make up what you think it said?

Yes I read it. Yes you identified the problem of focus fire, but adding armour does not make this issue any better but worse is my point since it make weapons that can do it well more effective to use as a result.

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Add the ability of pilots to target components rather than hitting them at random and again we have severe imbalance with regards to weapon damage v armour values.

A good starting point would be to increase armour across the board by 100% (with the appropriate ammo/ton increase).

It isn't a good starting point since the pinpoint accurate weapons would be used with more consistency to take down Mechs by focusing on Mech specific hard points, whereas other weapons, missiles, lasers, lbx that essentially all have more weapon spread would not be able to do this as effectively.

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The game would also become far more interesting by helping to alleviate the long range pop-tarting, incredibly boring, sniper wars which dominates the competitive game atm.

So sniping would not necessarily be reduced, and especially not AC/PPC meta that is dominant since these arrangements are focused FLD weapon use. You could in effect very likely make it worse as a result.

[Goose Igaly]

As someone who owns an Oxide with 4 streaks, I have to disagree with the "nerf the streaks" train. First off the firepower of the Oxide is less than its counterparts when they boat MLs. Second, even if we alpha our damage goes all over the place; we have no way to control where we fire them even if we wanted to. Third, it can be said that they take no skill to use and that is mostly true when dogging it out with other lights; however, should we get caught in a bad spot with multiple enemies around us it is difficult to maintain the locks while dodging fire, and should 2 ECMs be in the area we have to work to pull a mech out from under cover enough that our BAP can pick them up.

Finally, reducing their damage is going to hurt the light streakers as well as light hunters as their damage output will be gimped. Take my oxide for example. I carry 4 tons of ammo with the maximum engine, endo, ferro, 4 streaks. If I use up all of my ammo my match damage will be upwards of 800+ (not too shabby). In order to reach this damage output I had to shave 3/4 tons of armor from my chasis to fit the extra ton of ammo. Now I have to play even more skiddishly, utilizing cover for my approach runs and knowing where my opponent is for quick locks and fire before dodging back out.

By reducing the damage of the streaks by any amount will drastically reduce the ability of a streak user to output damage. Obviously 1.5 is too much of a nerf to consider, but even 2.0 would be unrealistic. 2.0 damage per missile would make each streak2 do 4 damage, an oxide then with an alpha of 16. We woul have to carry a 5th streak just to match the damage we were doing (btw, only 4 missile hardpoints). 2.0 may sound reasonable even when presented this way, but this equates to a 20% decrease; it's massive. The 1.5 would be a 40%, just for numbers.

Even beyond these factors streaks will still target a destroyed leg. With the 50% (?) transfer rate, our 2.5 damage on the leg transfers to 1.25 to CT. Sure, you can view it as 1.25 free damage to your CT, but I look at it as 1.25 lost damage as I'd put that damage in your CT myself if I could choose a target location.

The easiest way to deal with 'Mechs using streaks varies depending on the size of your 'Mech. Lights can try to duke it out, but if the streaker got the surprise jump on you I recommend running back to your team. A light laser boat can take out a streak light easily and I've been killed by the lasers more than I like. Truth is when we fight a laser boat we have two choices: keep facing our targets to we can hold the lock but eat their lasers, or hi-tail it out of there and take the lasers to our backs.

As a heavier 'Mech just throw some larger weapons in the streak light's face. You have to be able to land your hits if you shoot, though. If I'm circling a larger 'Mech and find that he's able to hit me with his bigger guns, I make a break for it; however, if he can't hit the broad side of a barn, I'm going to sit there and circle his butt until I kill him. Intimadate the light, we spook easy.

[Almond Brown]

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A "side effect" of this would be to make close range mechs more viable by giving them more of an armour "buffer" to close the distance to long range mechs without being blown apart or severely damaged to the extent that they are currently.

Not really seeing how giving both Mechs more armor and then giving the Pin point guy more ammo is going to help that poor slob who has to close under fire? So this new more armored mechs makes it to the other mech. Well he still has ALL his armor, and now likely more ammo then ever with which to finish the job. LOL!

Take the "Blue Pill" dude.

[Charles Seneca]

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It isn't a good starting point since the pinpoint accurate weapons would be used with more consistency to take down Mechs by focusing on Mech specific hard points, whereas other weapons, missiles, lasers, lbx that essentially all have more weapon spread would not be able to do this as effectively.

Those weapons are used more consistently anyway for the very reason you described. Increasing the armour would not make that problem better or worse for damage spread weapons. You have identified a problem with the weapons, a problem which exists wether armour is increased or not.

Increasing armour will increase the survivability of mechs - any arguement to the contrary is nonsense. Increased survivability benefits short range high damage mechs as they will have more ability to close with their long range, slow rate of fire, enemies.

The logic is pretty simple.

Those of you who think streaks are balanced seem to be missing the point that they are streak 2s TWOS. Streaks need to be balanced for numbers up to SIX. Which is why there is a problem - acknowledged by the devs. At the very least there is no reason why streaks should be doing 25% more damage than srms and let's not forget that streaks are just guided srms - they are otherwise the SAME missile.

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Not really seeing how giving both Mechs more armor and then giving the Pin point guy more ammo is going to help that poor slob who has to close under fire?

So you think increasing ammo count increases dps? You need to come OFF the pills...

[Osric Lancaster]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

1. Streaks. They do 2.5 damage per missile compared to srms that do 2. Streaks arguably take less skill to use than srms yet do 25% more damage. Clearly this is imbalanced which is why the devs are having problems with implementing streak 4 & 6.

So uh, before we get too off on this topic I feel I should point out that streak 4 and streak 6 are clan tech only until 3058, and clan streaks are always different from I.S. streaks. We should consider that clan and I.S. streaks may, functionally, be completely different systems. Clan streaks might do two damage and have a soft homing system like LRMs.

[Screech]

Andross Deverow, on 06 February 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Must be a light pilot eh? Sure..... go ahead... ask them to take away the only weapon that actually has a chance of helping heavier mechs discourage light mechs from leg humping them and coring them outright.

Regards

Yes, streaks need to stay the exact way they are now for the people who can't aim. Expecting people to be able to hit a moving target it completely unacceptable for a large percentage of folks as their gaping open mouth prevents it.

[Noesis]

Charles Seneca, on 06 February 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Increasing armour will increase the survivability of mechs - any arguement to the contrary is nonsense. Increased survivability benefits short range high damage mechs as they will have more ability to close with their long range, slow rate of fire, enemies.

This is true, but you forget that you increase both sides armour with this. And pinpoint accuracy will still be beneficial even if its an AC20 at close range or say 2 AC5/PPC at longer range. Missiles and laser effects will spread damage over a Mech more.

I really do feel that you are underestimating the value of focus fire a result and the need to drop Mechs quickly with as few shots possible where weapons with spread weapon effects wont allow this with more confidence or consistency.

Also if armour allows for more survivability then presumably being able to focus weapons away to deplete your enemies capabilities will become more important. You will be able to remove a YLW AC20 arm with more confidence with ballistics than say an equivalent damage amount of SSRM2 if arm armour is increased as it will take considerably less amount of shots and time to achieve the same.

Also you underestimate that by adding armour and ammo, but not helping heat use on other Mechs that if heat dependent weapons need to fire more they will use more heat and possibility of overheating as a result. But I don't see any gesture in helping heat balancing to help with this need.

To try and illustrate lets compare an AC10 with 2 MLs (not using effective applied values but spreadsheet versions otherwise the LL would not really compare to an AC10 due to beam spread).

The AC10 will hit a CT with 10 damage. For 2 MLs this value is 10 (theoretically potential of 100% more like 5 in reality from applied values).

Armour for a Mech is say 50: Both these arrangements need 5 shots.

For AC10 this will take 12.5 seconds and generate 15 heat.
For 2 ML this will take 20s and generate 40 heat.

Double armour to 100, Both now need 10 shots:

For AC10 this will take 25s and generate 30 heat
For 2 ML this will take 40s and generate 80 heat.

All is still relative as expected. But we can see that the heat build up becomes more significant for the similar heat dependent weapons and to the point where most builds will simply overheat most Mech builds. This since we know that capacities are better in MWO but dissipation worse and that ballistics are not as heat dependent as other weapons. So whilst heat can be lost over time you can see that the overall longevity with ballistic weapons being more sustainable now with this change as a result will make them much more desirable to use as they will overheat less as a result.

Edited by Noesis, 06 February 2014 - 12:03 PM.