42 replies to this topic

[ACH75]

Hello Guys,

I'm very disappointed with some weapon's weight balance especially for the Lasers,

don't you think that the gap between Medium Lasers (1tons) and ER/LARGE (5tons)

is too exagerated?

My suggestion is:

3tons for LARGE Lasers

4tons for ER LARGE Lasers

4tons for LARGE PULSE Lasers

5tons PPC

6tons ER PPC

They have already enough handicaps in heat management and ghost heat!


Double Heatsinks should dissipate a little more than just 1,4, i say 1,5 and the

ones stored in the engine's sockets should dissipate 2,0 like the built in one's.

My Bore's Head demands it!!! A Big Pig like that with 6 Lasers hardpoints cannot

properly handle the heat generated by 3+3 linked LARGE Lasers even with 22 total DHS!!!


Also XL Engines need to be more balanced!!! instead of sharing the whole engine HP they should at least have 15 HP for each part and if one is destroyed it should simply scale down the total power generated by the Engine, maybe -25% less power for each torso part destroyed.

...and in the End... I WANT A 4 TORSO BALLISTIC HARDPOINT'S ATLAS to unleash the
fury of 4 Ultra AC5!!!!!!!!!! The ATLAS should be The KING of Damage and not just a nerfed Giant Turtle!!!

[Sandpit]

That's probably not going to happen as the weights are based on TT and tie in very closely with the overall tonnage of a mech. All of the weights are based on the TT versions and to do something like that you'd have to revamp the weights across the board for everything in the game.

As for the 4AC Atlas, maybe they'll make something like that in a hero mech one day. I'd say an Annihilator would be better though

[Craig Steele]

ACH75, on 12 February 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Hello Guys,

I'm very disappointed with some weapon's weight balance especially for the Lasers,

don't you think that the gap between Medium Lasers (1tons) and ER/LARGE (5tons)

is too exagerated?

My suggestion is:

3tons for LARGE Lasers

4tons for ER LARGE Lasers

4tons for LARGE PULSE Lasers

5tons PPC

6tons ER PPC

They have already enough handicaps in heat management and ghost heat!


Double Heatsinks should dissipate a little more than just 1,4, i say 1,5 and the

ones stored in the engine's sockets should dissipate 2,0 like the built in one's.

My Bore's Head demands it!!! A Big Pig like that with 6 Lasers hardpoints cannot

properly handle the heat generated by 3+3 linked LARGE Lasers even with 22 total DHS!!!


Also XL Engines need to be more balanced!!! instead of sharing the whole engine HP they should at least have 15 HP for each part and if one is destroyed it should simply scale down the total power generated by the Engine, maybe -25% less power for each torso part destroyed.

...and in the End... I WANT A 4 TORSO BALLISTIC HARDPOINT'S ATLAS to unleash the
fury of 4 Ultra AC5!!!!!!!!!! The ATLAS should be The KING of Damage and not just a nerfed Giant Turtle!!!

So ummm, any weaknesses in your mech vision? You know something that encourages pilot skill / handling as opposed to a point and click 'wipe them out' exercise?

[ACH75]

Honestly I think that the rules of the Battletech TT should have been taken only for pure reference and inspiration, MWO is a 3D simulation of a table game but it's not a table game, so is good thing to respect as close as possible the original rules but not so good if some of those don't adapt properly...

[Daggett]

ACH75, on 12 February 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

.
.
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...and in the End... I WANT A 4 TORSO BALLISTIC HARDPOINT'S ATLAS to unleash the
fury of 4 Ultra AC5!!!!!!!!!! The ATLAS should be The KING of Damage and not just a nerfed Giant Turtle!!!

Not sure if trolling...

In my opinion what you want is not a fair balancing, you simply want to put more weapons into your mechs.

The Large Laser weights 5 tons for a very good reason. You can't simply compare it's damage to mediums and add a mere ton for the energy slot it saves, the less heat it produces and it's way better range. 5 tons are totally fine for all those advantages.
The same can be said to the other energy weapons. 7 tons for PPC for example is absolutely fine.

Your big pig simply is not supposed to handle 6 Large Lasers without serious heat problems (even without ghost heat) for a very good reason.

XL-Engines are as fragile as they are for a reason too. With your changes, no one would ever use standard engines anymore.
And PGI has proven wisdom by not bringing out any assault which could handle more than one big pin-point ballistic (AC10 and upwards) or two medium-sized ones like AC5. Your Atlas proposal would make it totally op in the current pin-point meta.
The Atlas is not supposed to be the king of damage, it's supposed to be a damage-soaker which can deal _reasonable_ damage.

[Dirus Nigh]

I think the weight for weapons are just fine. I can make them work, and I can handle the heat too. Maybe you need to adjust how you play. No mech is going to be able to spam fire energy weapons with out over heating. It's a consequence due to continuously firing your weapons.

[ACH75]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

So ummm, any weaknesses in your mech vision? You know something that encourages pilot skill / handling as opposed to a point and click 'wipe them out' exercise?

That's not the Point... I'm just saying that Bigger Mechs can carry more firepower but they also have to be designed in order to handle it properly!
The penalties should be limited to slower speeds, less manouvrability and the bigger shape...

If not, what's for the genious idea to project a 100 ton's that can handle well only 6 medium lasers like a 35 ton's Jenner!!! It's like going to battle with an elephant armed with water pistols!
The Atlas can't fly away from the combat and neither can cover quickly so it has to be able to do alot of sustained damage
otherwise it's own project purpose is a complete nonsense...

[wanderer]

Screwing up tonnages screws up putting stock builds into the game.

Howabout no. We can alter the performance of weapons rather than tweaking their tonnage/critical spacing, which is why the entire laser family has tweaked heat and damage numbers.

As for 100-tonners with lots-o-ballistics...it won't be the Atlas. Irritatingly enough, not only does it lack a high-ballistics model, most 100-tonners that qualify don't come along for years or have too few variants to qualify, like the Thunder Hawk.

[Red1769]

An Atlas is strong enough as it is. MWO may be a loose translation of TT (and some may agrue against that, and have), but it's sticking with stock loadouts and such, so any weight/crit changes aren't happening, as been said. You're gonna have to look at other ways to balance out weapons besides those, and there are plenty of those. Heat, Range, Damage, Beam Duration, Ghost Heat Penalty just to list some.

When handled well, and with support, an Atlas will wreck a team...any assault will, and they have/already do. If you're having problems with heat in your energy boat Boar's Head, use chain fire. Supposedly, that works quite well, and avoids the Ghost Heat penalty (I've never chain fired anything, those that boat energy weapons would know better than me). To me, it just sounds like you're having heat management issues. Which is sometimes the fault of the build, sometimes the person driving the mech.

[Craig Steele]

ACH75, on 12 February 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

That's not the Point... I'm just saying that Bigger Mechs can carry more firepower but they also have to be designed in order to handle it properly!
The penalties should be limited to slower speeds, less manouvrability and the bigger shape...

If not, what's for the genious idea to project a 100 ton's that can handle well only 6 medium lasers like a 35 ton's Jenner!!! It's like going to battle with an elephant armed with water pistols!
The Atlas can't fly away from the combat and neither can cover quickly so it has to be able to do alot of sustained damage
otherwise it's own project purpose is a complete nonsense...

Well to use your example of Atlas vs Jenner in the format you've presented, the advantage is about 5 times the armour plus strong internal structure so endurance is magnified by 6 / 7 times. So yeah, it kinda does have the ability to do sustained damage as your example presents.

All mechs are a trade off between speed, weapons, maneuvability (read jump jets), heat capacity and armour. Even within classes this is true. Compare the Raven and the Jenner for example, major design differences and trade offs in the same tonnage mech.

Your list above was to basically buff everything that heavies and assaults emphasise with no corresponding trade off.

My question is, what nerf's are you proposing to ensure the 'mega point and click death machine' your buffs would create is going to be balanced?

[Daggett]

ACH75, on 12 February 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

That's not the Point... I'm just saying that Bigger Mechs can carry more firepower but they also have to be designed in order to handle it properly!
The penalties should be limited to slower speeds, less manouvrability and the bigger shape...

If not, what's for the genious idea to project a 100 ton's that can handle well only 6 medium lasers like a 35 ton's Jenner!!! It's like going to battle with an elephant armed with water pistols!

Show me an assault that is incapable of beating any light mech's firepower.
Assaults already are very powerful and dish out lots of damage. One well aimed hit can kill a light in an instant (e.g. by legging him) while the light needs several well-placed shots to take out an assault. The armor an assault carries already makes a HUGE difference. Making assaults even more powerful would also one-shot most mediums and make them unusable.

As i said, the assaults purpose is not necessarily firepower, it's endurance. Heavies like the Jagermech should be the true damage-dealers and they pay that power with quite some vulnerabilities like the requirement of XL-engines and/or big side-torsos. They are high risk, high reward machines. Giving assaults equally strong weaponry while retaining their sturdiness would kill the purpose of such heavies.

[ACH75]

Daggett, on 12 February 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Not sure if trolling...

In my opinion what you want is not a fair balancing, you simply want to put more weapons into your mechs.

The Large Laser weights 5 tons for a very good reason. You can't simply compare it's damage to mediums and add a mere ton for the energy slot it saves, the less heat it produces and it's way better range. 5 tons are totally fine for all those advantages.
The same can be said to the other energy weapons. 7 tons for PPC for example is absolutely fine.

Your big pig simply is not supposed to handle 6 Large Lasers without serious heat problems (even without ghost heat) for a very good reason.

XL-Engines are as fragile as they are for a reason too. With your changes, no one would ever use standard engines anymore.
And PGI has proven wisdom by not bringing out any assault which could handle more than one big pin-point ballistic (AC10 and upwards) or two medium-sized ones like AC5. Your Atlas proposal would make it totally op in the current pin-point meta.
The Atlas is not supposed to be the king of damage, it's supposed to be a damage-soaker which can deal _reasonable_ damage.

Not trolling more than a JAGER with Twin Gauss or Twin AC20 or a nasty CTF with 3 Ultra AC/5!
If such unbalanced builds exists it's only because the mechs tonnage limits and slot spaces permits it, so it's obviuous that a Monster ATLAS with 4 Ballistics HPs can't carry much more other weapons...

As for the XL Engines being so fragile, i'm not saying that's they have to be a real better choice over STD but neither be so fragile as they are...

In the end you say the ATLAS is supposed to be a damage soaker that do reasonable damage but in the facts it only do reasonable damage because the extra armor it has it's simply not worth the handicaps it has... NEED MORE ARMOOOR PLEASE!!! At Least 33% more in the whole torso!!!! I'm a poor walking PIG with "Shoot at Me, please!" writed on the back and on the front!!!

[Lukoi Banacek]

I do not think we play the same game at all.

I also vote no to this unthought out request by the OP.

[ACH75]

Red1769, on 12 February 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

If you're having problems with heat in your energy boat Boar's Head, use chain fire. Supposedly, that works quite well, and avoids the Ghost Heat penalty (I've never chain fired anything, those that boat energy weapons would know better than me). To me, it just sounds like you're having heat management issues. Which is sometimes the fault of the build, sometimes the person driving the mech.

Chain fire a BORE is not very effective for pinpoint... and a Master BORE with 22DHS can take only 3 consequential Triple
linked shots before reaching nearly 100% heath limit so 27+27+27 Damage, just the time for another one and you're almost dead even if you manage to do the full 100% damage avoiding obstacles in the line of fire...
At least it should be the possible to chose in wich exact position of the arm you want attach every specific laser because now
the disposition it's bugged and messed up after saving when mounting different types of lasers in each arm.

[ACH75]

Daggett, on 12 February 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Show me an assault that is incapable of beating any light mech's firepower. Assaults already are very powerful and dish out lots of damage. One well aimed hit can kill a light in an instant (e.g. by legging him) while the light needs several well-placed shots to take out an assault. The armor an assault carries already makes a HUGE difference. Making assaults even more powerful would also one-shot most mediums and make them unusable. As i said, the assaults purpose is not necessarily firepower, it's endurance. Heavies like the Jagermech should be the true damage-dealers and they pay that power with quite some vulnerabilities like the requirement of XL-engines and/or big side-torsos. They are high risk, high reward machines. Giving assaults equally strong weaponry while retaining their sturdiness would kill the purpose of such heavies.

Oh yes but you miss to remember how it's easy to aim at an atlas side torso with near 10pts of armor staying confortably attached on his back without the possibility to turn quickly and how it's difficult to shoot a JAGER while it's pumping tons of bullet's in your face like a machine gun...

In my opinion at least AC2 Bullets should not make shake the cockpit of an Assault Mech! Damn! It's should be like spitting paper-sucked balls on a wall!!!

[FactorlanP]

ummm... No... Mkay...

[ACH75]

wanderer, on 12 February 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Screwing up tonnages screws up putting stock builds into the game. Howabout no. We can alter the performance of weapons rather than tweaking their tonnage/critical spacing, which is why the entire laser family has tweaked heat and damage numbers. As for 100-tonners with lots-o-ballistics...it won't be the Atlas. Irritatingly enough, not only does it lack a high-ballistics model, most 100-tonners that qualify don't come along for years or have too few variants to qualify, like the Thunder Hawk.

As you say... at least you may consider to make some tweak at the heatsinks rate and remove at least the ghost heat penalty for triple linked ER and LARGE Lasers...

Another thing very unsatisfying is that most of the modules are very poor in effectiveness, especially the ones that extend the range of weapons are really worthless...

[Domoneky]

Ok let me lay out some things kiddo. Your forgetting the most important weapon to an Atlas. Team mates. The Atlas is suppose to be a nasty Mech that takes damage and dishes it out in kind but only so much. That's where team mates come in. They can add their own firepower or start blasting away at the squishy backside while the target focuses on you. Also these changes you have are utterly ridiculous and this is coming from an Atlas pilot. The builds you fight against come with serious drawbacks. the UAC 5 'Phract for instance is completely ammo dependent. Twin Gauss JagerMechs have thin armor and XL Engines. That's the beauty of it. You have to choose what you sacrifice to gain in something else. My Atlas for example is set up for fire support. 2x ERLL 1x LRM 10 with Artimis, 1x Gauss rifle, ECM, STD 325, STD Armor and Endo Steel. What did I sacrifice? Speed, short range firepower. What did I gain? Providing long range fire support to allies, Longevity, Provide ECM cover and jamming, Indirect fire weapon. With all these I still depend on my lighter more agile allies to help me fight off the quicker enemy. Your build and penalties are rightfully justified. To be free of ammo dependence requires high heat. however your ideas about changing the Atlas Hardpoints is just....silly. Your gonna have to jut learn to either Adapt to your high heat build or Adapt your Mech to be less Hot.

[Craig Steele]

ACH75, on 12 February 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

As you say... at least you may consider to make some tweak at the heatsinks rate and remove at least the ghost heat penalty for triple linked ER and LARGE Lasers...

Another thing very unsatisfying is that most of the modules are very poor in effectiveness, especially the ones that extend the range of weapons are really worthless...

If you're that concerned about heat, strip off some armour and put in more heat sinks.

Or, salvo your weapon fire.

Battle mechs are not designed to do repeated alpha's, they are designed to have a mix of weapons for different engagements. It's up to the pilot to balance his weapon selection against potential returns.

Can you alpha with everything, absolutely, but not every pull of the trigger.

Edited by Craig Steele, 12 February 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[ACH75]

Craig Steele, on 12 February 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

If you're that concerned about heat, strip off some armour and put in more heat sinks.

Or, salvo your weapon fire.

Battle mechs are not designed to do repeated alpha's, they are designed to have a mix of weapons for different engagements. It's up to the pilot to balance his weapon selection against potential returns.

Can you alpha with everything, absolutely, but not every pull of the trigger.

Sorry Man... more than 22 DHS doesn't fit!!! I'm not pretending to do countinuos Alpha strikes, 3linked large lasers are just half my potential Alpha! A full alpha with 6 lasers is not possible to do in any way...