29 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Stelar 7, on 12 February 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

If you don't do it why do you think you know how much skill it takes? People talk about jump sniping as if all you do is hit the space bar and damage is magically applied to your enemies with no risk. That is false. .

Well, to be honest, I was looking at it from more of a "Real World (of BattleTech)" point of view... To pull off a Jump-Shot, the pilot of a Mech would have to consider many things and be in control of a number of separate controls/systems all at the same time. Surely not an easy task for the average Mechwarrior.

I never meant to imply that it was "easy" to do, it just really seems like it's easier than it should be - or it has less risk than it should for the reward it provides.

The only thing I have to back up my "it's easier than it should be" statement, is the fact that average players can use an advanced combat technique and do well with it. The current popularity of JumpSniping builds is staggering. When I play, and repeatedly see that ~75% of the mechs dropping are Jump-shooters, clearly something isn't quite right.

Edited by Fut, 12 February 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Bad Andy]

it's cute you think PGI is capable of implementing changes like this

[Jaguar Prime]

Fut, on 12 February 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Well, to be honest, I was looking at it from more of a "Real World (of BattleTech)" point of view... To pull off a Jump-Shot, the pilot of a Mech would have to consider many things and be in control of a number of separate controls/systems all at the same time. Surely not an easy task for the average Mechwarrior.

I never meant to imply that it was "easy" to do, it just really seems like it's easier than it should be - or it has less risk than it should for the reward it provides.

The only thing I have to back up my "it's easier than it should be" statement, is the fact that average players can use an advanced combat technique and do well with it. The current popularity of JumpSniping builds is staggering. When I play, and repeatedly see that ~75% of the mechs dropping are Jump-shooters, clearly something isn't quite right.

75% is a little high. So you are saying, in every match you are in, 18 players are poptarting?

[Fut]

Jaguar Prime, on 12 February 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

75% is a little high. So you are saying, in every match you are in, 18 players are poptarting?

You're right... exaggeration on my part, due to all the excitement around here. I apologize for that, it's not really constructive.
In your experience, how many Mechs do you see Poptarting in an average match?

[Jaguar Prime]

Fut, on 12 February 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

You're right... exaggeration on my part, due to all the excitement around here. I apologize for that, it's not really constructive.
In your experience, how many Mechs do you see Poptarting in an average match?

It varies. Not including light mechs, across all 4 weight classes. (I rotate between my favorite mechs in each weight class when I play.) I see on average about 3-6 poptarts out of 24 players. Including lights it's around 5-8.

I noticed on what I guess is my highest Elo class. (I see the SJ's and the old DV8 guys in matches.) I see a lot more poptarters than I do in what I think is my lower Elo classes. When I pilot my medium, I tend to be the only poptarter outside of the lights in a match. When in a heavy or light, I see more than I do in my medium. And in my assault, I see more than I do in my light and heavy. Just an observation.

[Specops12]

I honestly do not understand the issue with the poptarting meta, it has nerfed to the point that you have to be skilled to use it effectively. Also remember that poptarting is a major component to the competitive meta, and if poptarting disappears, a new meta just as annoying to less competitive pilots will emerge, and you will whine just as much about that. Something that should also be mentioned is so long as the anti-climbing change remains, mechs with jump jets will always be the best, if the anti-climbing remains, mechs without will always remain inferior.

[Stelar 7]

Fut, on 12 February 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Well, to be honest, I was looking at it from more of a "Real World (of BattleTech)" point of view... To pull off a Jump-Shot, the pilot of a Mech would have to consider many things and be in control of a number of separate controls/systems all at the same time. Surely not an easy task for the average Mechwarrior.

I never meant to imply that it was "easy" to do, it just really seems like it's easier than it should be - or it has less risk than it should for the reward it provides.

The only thing I have to back up my "it's easier than it should be" statement, is the fact that average players can use an advanced combat technique and do well with it. The current popularity of JumpSniping builds is staggering. When I play, and repeatedly see that ~75% of the mechs dropping are Jump-shooters, clearly something isn't quite right.

Ok then, now I have to shelve all my DK jokes. In universe we are connected to the mechs with a neurohelmet. They act like giant well armed bodies. So I don't agree, with all the computer aiming **** and such, that jumping up and shooting should be all that much harder than any other snap shot.

Where I would like to see a change is falling damage. That would hurt folks jumping off cliffs though, in canyon and tourmaline. I would also like it to be bad for the mech I land on, and my own legs, when I jump up and land on someone. I've had hunchbacks happily, and safely supporting my Victor, that isn't right on any level.

[YueFei]

Increasing fall damage is only going to screw the non-JJ-capable mechs even further.

The good poptarts don't jump higher than necessary. They creep up to a point where they can almost shoot. Almost like hill-humping. Except instead of hill-humping, they make a very short waist-high jump, taking advantage of the very strong initial thrust, just enough to clear their hands, shoot, and then drop back into cover.

If you try to poptart and jump higher than necessary, the last part of your ascent happens slowly, and you float in the air exposed as a target longer than you want to be.

I certainly hope we don't make it so that mechs take fall damage from waist-high falls. The JJ-capable mechs can just cushion their falls, poptarting won't be affected, and the rest of the mechs that can't put jumpjets will be screwed.

BTW, can we stop with the poptart bogeyman? Isn't it just sensible to make rapid use of cover? To be able to pop out, hit the enemy, and dive back into cover? I get that some people might find this "cheap" and would rather that people lined up like Redcoats to be politely shot at, but that would be dumb.

The problem isn't that JJ-capable mechs can do this. The problem is that non-JJ capable mechs can't do this (anymore). They used to be able to, but hill-climb-mechanics screwed them big time.

Edited by YueFei, 13 February 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Varent]

Mad Elf, on 12 February 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Hi,

Sorry if these have been suggested already (I haven't seen this exact collection anywhere), but having noodled over the problem a fair bit recently I thought I should share.

This nerf is in four parts:

1. Target reticle shake when jump-jets are active.

Of course, this is already in place, and is working to some extent. I'm listing it because it's a necessary part of the system: it prevents targetting on the way up.

2. Increase convergence time for all weapons.

For all weapons (arm-mounted or otherwise) to hit the same spot, the 'mech must compensate for the range to the target. This compensation must take significant time (several tenths of a second), and must not be possible when the reticle is shaking all over the place.

Implementing this will mean that if the pop-tart fires a snap-shot at the apex of the jump, some of the rounds will miss the target area (or miss altogether).

3. Implement correct physics re. projectile speeds.

If I'm running at 80kph and fire directly sideways, the round (including PPC blast) should also be moving sideways at 80kph. If I'm falling at 10m/s and fire, the round's velocity should also have an extra downward component of 10m/s. This is simple physics, easy to implement, but the last time I checked it hadn't been.

Adding this extra realism will mean that if the pop-tart holds fire to allow their weapons to converge, they will have to take the extra projectile drop into account, making the shot more difficult (though still possible for a skilled player).

4. Implement correct physics re. weapon recoil.

I ran the numbers: assuming that any shock absorbers are perfectly elastic, if you mount a twin-Gauss Catapult on roller skates and fire an alpha strike, the 'mech would end up moving backwards at 22kph!

Realistically, any shock absorbers will more likely be inelastic (which means the recoil is dispersed via something like gas venting, rather than transferred completely to the 'mech body -- a system that must be reset after each use), but they won't be perfectly so. A fair proportion of the recoil would be transferred to the 'mech. The recoil would be worse if the 'mech wasn't grounded.

If this was implemented, firing large projectile weapons (including PPCs) would rock the entire cockpit up (and either left or right, unless the weapons are fired symmetrically, as in the Gaussapult). Unless they were exceptionally skilled, pop-tarts would only have one opportunity to fire while in the air, regardless of recycle time or chain-fire.

Conclusion:

All these suggestions are improvements to the game's realism (as opposed to inexplicable made-up nerfs like ghost heat). If they were all implemented, they wouldn't stop pop-tarting completely, but they would reduce the accuracy, remove the pin-point alpha damage, and increase the skill required to pull it off. I think that's the fairest way to deal with the issue, and it makes the game more realistic overall.

(I would especially like to see the recoil implemented. Currently, if I fire a Gauss Rifle, there's a small noise. If I fire an AC20, there's a much louder noise, and a bit of a flash. If at the same time the cockpit rocked noticeably as the entire 'mech absorbed the recoil, I would know, in my gut, that I'd just discharged a massive, high-powered projectile!)

1. This has been a common idea thrown around. Im all for it myself though I think there should be a way to minimize it so it doesnt make jump sniping impossible, only drastically harder.

2. They have already stated it works against hit registration. Rather not have more issues with that.

3. Neat idea, though it would have a minimal at best effect. Mostly it would effect brawlers who are doing constant torso twisting and it would hurt them. So you actually wouldbe hurting the thing most often used against jump snipers.

4. Weapon recoil doesnt hurt jump snipers, it hurts brawlers. See number 3. Weapon recoil actually HELPS jump snipers since it would partially turn the chasis wich helps a jump sniper by turning away after the shot so they absorb an impact on there non weapon side. Jump snipers only fire once per jump.

[Corvus Antaka]

simply doubling the speed ont he jumpjet action could help tons. and more upward thrust so mechs can get some air while running fast.

doubling jj speed of action would half the time jumpsnipers have to shoot with a table reticule.