42 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

SRMs, even with hits registering, are still crap compared to everything else. No match against, for example, 4 LLs. More tonnage, more actual heat in 4 SRM 6, no ammo for the lasers but the SRMs are in every way inferior in performance. Every single way.

[Artgathan]

@ People saying that there's no point increasing SRM ammo because SRMs are bad right now: This makes no sense. At the very least this buff would put SRMs in line with other weapons so that at the very least the system is consistent. I really don't see how there's anything to lose by bringing them into line with every other ammunition-based weapon.

@ Sandpit: I've noticed this with SRMs too (IE: sometimes my SRMs hit and deal damage, but my reticule doesn't turn red). However! There are definitely time where they're not registering damage (such as unloading an ASRM18 into the back of an Atlas @ 50m and only turning his armor light yellow).

@ MischeifSC: This is definitely an interesting possibility. I look forwards to seeing your result! I also agree that SRMs are inferior to lasers (SRM2 vs ML is hilarious). However I don't think that increasing the range is the best course for SRMs - they're supposed to be a mean brawling weapon. Perhaps increasing their damage would be better?

[MischiefSC]

Artgathan, on 13 February 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

@ MischeifSC: This is definitely an interesting possibility. I look forwards to seeing your result! I also agree that SRMs are inferior to lasers (SRM2 vs ML is hilarious). However I don't think that increasing the range is the best course for SRMs - they're supposed to be a mean brawling weapon. Perhaps increasing their damage would be better?

They need a buff to damage, accuracy and range to be competitive. The point is to make them *accurate* within 270m but viable further. The problem is that they currently have the range engagement potential of small lasers for more heat and many times the tonnage - as well as less accuracy and more spread on the damage. An SRM 2 for example has a max range of 270m, does 4 pts of damage, generates 2 heat and a 2.5 sec cooldown. Oh, and that 4 pts of damage? Without Artemis (1 extra ton/crit space) you're unlikely to get both missiles on a single mech at more than 100m. An SRM6 is the same only 3x as big, double the heat and about double the cooldown.

They are an absolutely terrible weapon compared to ballistics or energy. Absolutely terrible.

They need improvements across the board. They need range like an ML, they need hit-reg fixed (that will fix damage), then probably need a small damage buff on top of that or a significant tightening of the cluster - at least to 270m if it gets a range buff. Then make it hit like an lb10X from 270 to 540m. Within 270 though I need to be able to put most the missiles in the same location. Not all, just most is fine. That or faster cooldown. Something.

[New Day]

Sandpit, on 12 February 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

I've noticed something lately and I'm trying to grab more data on it. I noticed it on a ballistic mech I was running. I had 3 AC10s and noticed that even though I wasn't registering a hit (reticle turning red) I was dead on the target and figured it was just hit registration. I only had the issue when I would fire them in close succession on chain fire. Then at the end of the match I noticed my damage was over 700. Given the amount of damage I did it didn't look like I could have missed that many shots and done that much damage.

So I'm wondering if it's just an issue with the client not showing the hits even if the server is registering them. SRMs would definitely have this issue as they're short range and fire in large groups a lot of times. If you or anyone you know runs SRM builds please pass that on and see if they can help collect some data on it. If this is the case then SRMs aren't actually suffering from hit registration issues but just look like they do. It will take a few players paying very close attention and actually tracking some stats. If you or anyone you know are willing to do this I'd be grateful for the data to take a look at.

I'm not saying this is the case with SRMs but it's a possibility

I had this too. High damage yet no hits 'registering'.

[DONTOR]

Sandpit, on 12 February 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

I've noticed something lately and I'm trying to grab more data on it. I noticed it on a ballistic mech I was running. I had 3 AC10s and noticed that even though I wasn't registering a hit (reticle turning red) I was dead on the target and figured it was just hit registration. I only had the issue when I would fire them in close succession on chain fire. Then at the end of the match I noticed my damage was over 700. Given the amount of damage I did it didn't look like I could have missed that many shots and done that much damage.

So I'm wondering if it's just an issue with the client not showing the hits even if the server is registering them. SRMs would definitely have this issue as they're short range and fire in large groups a lot of times. If you or anyone you know runs SRM builds please pass that on and see if they can help collect some data on it. If this is the case then SRMs aren't actually suffering from hit registration issues but just look like they do. It will take a few players paying very close attention and actually tracking some stats. If you or anyone you know are willing to do this I'd be grateful for the data to take a look at.

I'm not saying this is the case with SRMs but it's a possibility

Ill Give it a shot on my ASRM6 stalker 5M, might yield some interestng results.

[MischiefSC]

Okay. So a few dozen drops in an SRM-focused mech. Aside from driving my win/loss and KDR into the ground because, without question or debate SRMs are an utter crap weapon compared to everything else (I'd take small lasers and MGs over SRM6s with Artemis, not even ton for ton but hardpoint for hardpoint) the hit detection I would swear is tied to group-firing them. Maybe it's too many hitting the same location, maybe they're spoofing each other in flight, I don't know. I do know that if I chain fire it's better. Also if I fire multiple launchers with widely separated firing positions it's better.

Admittedly I have no real hope or expectation of their issues getting fixed. I expect them to always and for the whole future of MW:O to be pretty sub-par weapons. They like the PPC/AC sniper meta. That's what the devs enjoy. Unless we get something like being able to knock down a dev for 5 minutes solid to demonstrate to them that that particular concept is broken, it'll get ignored. Fixing it doesn't make money. Clan mechs do.

[Sandpit]

Thanks guys, and I'm not saying hit registration doesn't need some love on them but I think this may be an issue where it's not as bad as we think it might be and a reason why when PGI looks at the data it isn't coinciding with the complaints.

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

the hit detection I would swear is tied to group-firing them. Maybe it's too many hitting the same location, maybe they're spoofing each other in flight, I don't know. I do know that if I chain fire it's better. .

yea I think you're right but I'm still trying to figure out if the hit not registering is still doing damage though. In the AC10 case that's what appeared to be happening. If I slowed down my fire rate just a tad it registered the hits. If I fired them quickly it wouldn't but the damage output at the end of the game indicated I still hit a lot more than was showing up on my screen.

I'm hoping we can get enough people paying close attention to it to figure it out

[MischiefSC]

Sandpit, on 13 February 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Thanks guys, and I'm not saying hit registration doesn't need some love on them but I think this may be an issue where it's not as bad as we think it might be and a reason why when PGI looks at the data it isn't coinciding with the complaints.



yea I think you're right but I'm still trying to figure out if the hit not registering is still doing damage though. In the AC10 case that's what appeared to be happening. If I slowed down my fire rate just a tad it registered the hits. If I fired them quickly it wouldn't but the damage output at the end of the game indicated I still hit a lot more than was showing up on my screen.

I'm hoping we can get enough people paying close attention to it to figure it out

On your Ilya, right? I bet the arm and torso shots are too close together and the projectiles may be 'spoofing' each other. It may calculate damage for you as a hit but they are considered to be hitting each other for damage on the other mech. So the other arms AC is hitting but the arm/torso side (RT/RA) are 'converging' with each other.

Similar concept to the SRMs, but total speculation.

Boy, if we had PRIVATE MATCHES WE COULD TOTALLY TEST THIS. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

On your Ilya, right? I bet the arm and torso shots are too close together and the projectiles may be 'spoofing' each other. It may calculate damage for you as a hit but they are considered to be hitting each other for damage on the other mech. So the other arms AC is hitting but the arm/torso side (RT/RA) are 'converging' with each other.

Similar concept to the SRMs, but total speculation.

Boy, if we had PRIVATE MATCHES WE COULD TOTALLY TEST THIS. Wouldn't that be amazing?

That could be it. The enemy mechs were melting so it felt like they were taking damage. Like you said though, pure speculation at this point. We wont' know until we get a lot more data collected.

Private matches are coming

[Trauglodyte]

Hit detection as a whole is kind of off. I legged an Ember last night and then couldn't finish him off after 10+ rounds of UAC5. Everything I fired just sort of disappeared even though my reticle kept turning red. Lasers work perfectly 100% of the time but anything else is completely random.

[Sandpit]

I wonder if that could be just the paper doll not updating. I'm wondering if there's an issue other than hit registration that may be causing problems. Again, if this is the case PGI may be seeing something completely different when they review data as opposed to practical use

[Trauglodyte]

I haven't a clue. Though, and this is just anecdotal evidence, it only happens on the smaller mechs with ballistics. Now, SRMs are an issue against everything and are just hampered more against Lights due to the missile spread and the slight build of the Lights. But, it is extremely unnerving when you're tossing out a mass amount of damage and they just sit there and look at you. It is even worse when you die and they live because nothing you're doing counts.

On a side note, I'm starting to wonder if jumping mechs aren't getting some sort of added HSR bonus. Even when using beam weapons against them, it seems (again just observational info here) like nothing happens until they drop. And that is with me running at a ping that never jumps above 60.

[Coralld]

Sandpit, on 13 February 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I wonder if that could be just the paper doll not updating. I'm wondering if there's an issue other than hit registration that may be causing problems. Again, if this is the case PGI may be seeing something completely different when they review data as opposed to practical use

That's entirely possible. Didn't do much SRM testing sense the MM decided to make me and our team to be lambs to be slaughtered which made testing SRMs impossible so I just stuck with trying to finish the basics for my Thunderbolt 5SS.
I did notice my paper doll not updating properly as I had yellow internal CT and when a flight of 2x LRM15s coming in. When they hit I saw my internal CT go from light yellow to cherry red before I died. The only way I could have died from that would be if all the LRMs struck my CT, but they didn't, only a few actually hit me before I died and the rest splashed over my dead corps. There was also no TAG or Artemis involved.

[Sandpit]

Yea this will be anecdotal but if enough people are experiencing it we can at least then provide PGI with a little more info on stuff they may need ot look into. We may be blaming it entirely on the wrong issue so I'm interested in just getting as much data on this as we can even if it is anecdotal. It might help fix things.

[Coralld]

Trauglodyte, on 13 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I haven't a clue. Though, and this is just anecdotal evidence, it only happens on the smaller mechs with ballistics. Now, SRMs are an issue against everything and are just hampered more against Lights due to the missile spread and the slight build of the Lights. But, it is extremely unnerving when you're tossing out a mass amount of damage and they just sit there and look at you. It is even worse when you die and they live because nothing you're doing counts.

On a side note, I'm starting to wonder if jumping mechs aren't getting some sort of added HSR bonus. Even when using beam weapons against them, it seems (again just observational info here) like nothing happens until they drop. And that is with me running at a ping that never jumps above 60.

You are correct that JJers don't take full damage or any damage at all while airborn, I tested that extensively today against poptarting Highlanders and Victots, and any mech that can mount JJs really. Best example was when I was hitting a poptarting Victor and half my shots did nothing. Total damage done that match in my Thunderbolt 5SS with a PPC and 5x ML was only 55. And I know I hit that Victor with my PPC at 500m more then 5 times. Don't even get me started on the bunny hopping mechs that were in range of my MLs at 300m.

In short, hit detection and all that is buggy at best, but when you add JJs into the equation the game then takes hit detection and throws it out the window.

Edited by Coralld, 13 February 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

I'm starting to believe that Sandy might be right about the paper doll not updating. I've had a couple of games the past three or four days where I went from yellow or even orange external armor with no internal damage at all to dead in one salvo. This normally wouldn't be an issue if I were in a Light but, and I'm sad to say this because the current meta just bothers me, this was on my Victor. My 9S runs an XL, which is probably a huge mistake but that isn't for this discussion, and has on it a total of 68 armor on its side torso. I run my Victor with 63 on the front and 5 on the back. Yellow, orange, and red represent thirds of armor so, even with orange or yellow armor, I should have in excess of 22 at least. A single salvo from even the old school triple PPC/Gauss wouldn't be enough to rip through a torso and clean out the internal structure and nobody runs those builds anymore. Hell, I died the other day with a red external CT thanks to less than 2s of a Spider blasting me with MGs.

So, it seems to me that too much of this is paper doll delays combined with HSR errors with a dash of "you would have hit if your target's leg was thicker than a **** hair".

[Sandpit]

Trauglodyte, on 13 February 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I'm starting to believe that Sandy might be right about the paper doll not updating. I've had a couple of games the past three or four days where I went from yellow or even orange external armor with no internal damage at all to dead in one salvo. This normally wouldn't be an issue if I were in a Light but, and I'm sad to say this because the current meta just bothers me, this was on my Victor. My 9S runs an XL, which is probably a huge mistake but that isn't for this discussion, and has on it a total of 68 armor on its side torso. I run my Victor with 63 on the front and 5 on the back. Yellow, orange, and red represent thirds of armor so, even with orange or yellow armor, I should have in excess of 22 at least. A single salvo from even the old school triple PPC/Gauss wouldn't be enough to rip through a torso and clean out the internal structure and nobody runs those builds anymore. Hell, I died the other day with a red external CT thanks to less than 2s of a Spider blasting me with MGs.

So, it seems to me that too much of this is paper doll delays combined with HSR errors with a dash of "you would have hit if your target's leg was thicker than a **** hair".

yea I'm thinking it might be a combination of a few different things. Hopefully we can help pin it down and give PGI something to look at any maybe get fixed.
We complain about hit detection on SRMs, PGI looks at the data and doesn't see a real issue big enough to investigate more and closes the case so to speak. Then we complain even more and they check again, showing the same data as last time.

Meanwhile we're seeing something they're not because it won't actually show up when they go through and actually check the data. Maybe we can help them figure it out. If nothing else it might help us come up with a few workarounds regardless. It might be a simple action such as slowing down your firing rate (which, no it isn't optimal but it might help nonetheless) or where you aim, etc.

I know it's anecdotal but I'm trying to track the responses here. I don't know if it warrants its own thread though but I'd like to get as many people testing it as possible.

[Artgathan]

Sandpit - I'm not convinced that the paper doll updating can be blamed. I've yet to encounter a situation where the target took damage but the doll didn't update (though admittedly this would be hard to detect and isn't something I was considering before this morning - but I haven't seen it since I started looking either). That said, I'm going to be vigilant for this in the future. It'll be tricky to detect though (outside of more controlled conditions).

On a slightly related note:

Now that Artemis-equipped weapons are being tracked separately we can start to get a better handle on their effectiveness vs non-Artemis-equipped weapons.

For instance, my ASRM6 are only 7% points more accurate than my "normal" SRM6, despite weighing 33% more. ATM I only have a small sample size (8 games with ASRM6) but I'm interested to see what other people are getting out of it.

[Trauglodyte]

Arty, I can pinpoint a game right now. I just came out of one. Full yellow armor on my Centurion. Turn a corner to close on a lone Battlemaster and I take one salvo of AC2s and twist to spread it around. I turn around and take another couple of ACs only to die. Mediums have crap for armor, no doubt, but I'm not going from yellow external to dead in two short salvoes. And,it isn't like he had anyone with him.

[Sandpit]

I'm not convinced of ANYthing yet lol just somethign I noticed that really struck me as odd because I was PISSED during the match until I saw my damage output after the match lol. I'm not the greatest with ballistics but I was nearly point blank range firing on an assault mech that wasn't moving and it looked like I was missing quite a bit